Are toys graven images?
 

Crazy, right? Well, I've discovered that many christians believe that the 2nd commandment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven, the earth, or the seas, and this includes toy dolls, toy animals, nick-knacks in the house, busts, statues, etc. some go further and say it prohibits paintings, pictures, drawings, etc.

The argument is simple - the 2nd commandment contains two elements. First, not to make any likeness. Second, not to bow down to or worship said likenesses. They say the prohibited thing is prohibited, regardless of what a person does to or with it. They say the command is not to make graven images, and also (second part) to not use them as objects of worship. Thus, if a person makes a graven image, but does not worship it or bow down to it, they still are violating the second commandment, just as a person who worships an idol, but does not MAKE an idol, is violating the commandment.

So then, for example, a toy farm set with farmer, his wife, and animals, is forbidden, not because they are 'idols' and are 'worshipped', but because they are graven images which are forbidden.

Does anyone have any relevant thoughts on this? Are they right? Wrong? Is there a BIBLE answer to the question?

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

We went to a pretty conservative church during the 80's and I do not recall ever hearing this first hand or hearing about anyone who believed this, even 2nd hand. There were a FEW who refused to use or own dice or playing cards (which I suppose can be considered toys by many) but even back then they were a dying breed.

However having said all that, the most ironic thing of all is that I had a very specific conviction which lasted many years against having any sort of poster on my walls. While I don't consider it "wrong" now, I felt this way long enough that by the time I didn't -I was beyond the age where someone would typically have one anyways, thus I never DID have any. I guess the only thing I have on our walls now are photos (most of which I personally took) and a few calenders hanging.

(I do still have some 'action figures' though!)

I will also add that I took ZERO offense from others who had them. I highly doubt anyone realized my own personal feelings on the issue as I recognized it as being so personal that I really felt no need to evangelize the topic.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

No.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Thanks for the in depth discussion!

lol

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

By their logic, a plastic bowl is a graven image also..lol.

As far as biblical answer, 1 Cor 8 deals with this in principle. (Just to paraphrase). An idol is nothing, only one God. But some christians do not have this understanding, so they still esteem non living objects (or foods sacrificed to idols) as something wrong.

Because of their lack of understanding, they feel guilty.

But in reality, those things (food, toys, etc) are just objects, no different than a styrofoam cup being labeled a graven image.

Also, like you noted in your post, the intent of EX 20:4 was "to not worship other gods". (not just the object)

Case in point, Moses was told to make a brazen serpent for Israel to look to and be saved from their snake bites.

By looking at the brazen serpent, they were obeying God,and were healed.

The same brazen serpent later became for them something they began to worship aside from God.

Was the brazen serpent in of itself wrong? no.
Their worship of it was sin though.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

I personnally haven't come across any christians against owning toys, but this is the same logic most use against celebrating xmas.

It's almost xmas. Might as well start arguing if it's right or wrong...:happydance

Side note: I initially thought you posted "The 2nd ammendment prohibits any representation of anything in heaven..." :spit

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

No I don't think so

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

To me, and since I believe it, it must be right, for something to be a graven image it would be something which represents a god or gods, a deity. A toy tractor wouldn't be the same thing as a statue of Zeus (even though Zeus never existed) for example.

As far as a biblical example of an image that isn't a graven image, one that comes to mind (and this troubles me that I even thought of this) is the example here in scripture.....

1Sa 5:9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.

1Sa 5:12 And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven.

1Sa 6:5 Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.

1Sa 6:11 And they laid the ark of the LORD upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

MANY? Really? How many is many? Cuz I've never ever heard of anyone teaching or believing this nonsense. And frankly, if I were in a church where it started to be taught, I would have to assume that someone jumped off the deep end and I'd be out of there immediately!

the only thing I've ever heard that even comes close to this teaching is the Amish who don't believe their little girls' dolls should have faces on them.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

What in the world is your definition of "many"? I don't think there are "many" christians who believe toys are graven images and a sin.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

I appreciate the responses but I think some of you may have missed the point.

The point is - the commandment forbids the making of any likeness or 'image' of living things. It also forbids the use of them for objects of worship.

Thus, there are TWO PARTS to the commandment.

A child's doll or toy animal, or a person's little statue of an animal used as a decoration, would therefore qualify as a forbidden object, right?

Someone brought up the emerods and mice... was that commanded by God or did the pagans come up with that on their own? (Just wondering, I can't recall the entire story right off hand).

I do remember the brazen serpent, which I always thought was weird... I understand it being a type of Christ, lifted up, to whom if we look we will be healed... but then if we take the typology further does it not indicate worship of Jesus is idolatry?

Besides which, I can't imagine nobody in Moses' day didn't go 'Say what? Make a brass serpent, put it on a pole, and anyone bit by a snake will go and look on the serpent and be healed? Moses! Not that long ago you had a bunch of us killed for making a gold cow, now you want us to make a brass snake? Wha...?'

lol

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

This all started today when I discovered Martha Stewart supplies Passover kits for kids, including little frogs and toy cows and other stuff to represent the 10 plagues. So I thought 'how in the world do Jews do that? I thought they would be adverse to it?' I found out most Jews have no problem with such things, many Jews however avoid toys of 'unclean' animals (like frogs, pigs, bugs, etc). I then found website after website by mostly 'deliverance', Sacred Name or 'Messianic' type christians saying all the toy dolls, toy soldiers, statues, busts, or any 'likeness' of any living thing was forbidden by the 2nd commandment.

Just google 'graven images toys' and you'll see.

I was kind of surprised. and now I am wondering what the biblical truth about the subject is.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

The pagans came up with it, but it was acceptable to the Lord as a trespass offering.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Virgin Mary action figure

http://www8.gmanews.tv/webpics/v3/20...d_superman.jpg

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

You are probably just hoping you don't have to get rid of your collectible GI Joe doll.:happydance

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Barbies might be.

Just kidding, but it seems as though the mothers that buy lots of Babies for their little girls, certainly think a lot about the Barbies.

I know, they are collectables.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

I think these days PSPs, Nintendo DS, and cell phone play the role of "idols" moreso than action figures and stuffed animals. Many children are underdeveloped in the skill of imaginative play.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

I have more irrelevent comments. Like: THose people are idiots.

But that is unkind and not acting in Charity...which is commanded by the NT.

I have issues with people who dont use context to understand the meaning of scripture:

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, H6459 neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Ferd, that is my point. They are saying there are two elements to the commandment, one is not to make a graven image, the other is not to bow down and venerate it.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

See? Two parts. First, don't make any likeness, or 'graven image'. Second, don't bow down to them or serve them (do them homage).

It's like this... is it okay to have actual idols in your house, actual definite undeniable idols, as long as you don't bow down to them or do religious service to them?

Is it okay to have porn in your house as long as you don't 'look at it'?

I am not saying I agree with them, I am trying to eliminate any doubt as to whether the commandment ONLY prohibits the USE of idols in worship, or whether it does actually extend to 'making any likeness', whether one uses it religiously or not.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

But if they are two separate commandments, what is the point? If you obey the "first one" then there's no need for the second one. It only makes sense as a cohesive thought. The second portion indicates the intent that is sinful and should be avoided.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Consider the fourth commandment. There is one element - remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Then there is the other element - do no servile work therein. One commandment, two parts or two aspects.

Do you see?

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

BTW, I am not arguing FOR the position, I am just working through it, exhausting all the evidence, 'proving all things' etc etc. Thanks for those of you who are patient, I often take the 'devil's advocate' approach to things as I want to be thorough.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Esaias, just for the record, I respect your approach and even when we disagree, I respect you.

if my "idiot" comment here offended, I am sorry. It was certainly not directed at you.

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

No offense taken! (Usually because I am well skilled in the mysteries of idiocy!)

lol

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

speaking of idiocy, see my sig line!

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Are toys graven images?

The only difference in men and boys is the price of their toys.


:nod

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

They only get more expensive.

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/i...28003660_8.jpg

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

That actually proves the point further. The second part is clarification to tell you how to keep it holy - not a separate and distinct command. Therefore, if you do servile work, you are not obeying the command to keep the sabbath holy. It's one cohesive thought. The same as with the negative of "do not make any graven image"...for what purpose? To bow down and worship. The fourth is: "Keep the sabbath holy by not doing servile work."

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Interesting take although I do not see how idleness makes a day 'holy'. Consider God 'rested, and THEN he 'sanctified' the day 'because he had rested'.

In any event, I am pretty convinced this has to do with idolatry and not so much the mere fact of making a likeness, otherwise Moses would have been in violation by making the brass serpent, and the ark would have been in violation because it had cherubim, and the Temple would have been in violation because it had various designs of plants, trees etc on it as commanded by God according to the vision he gave David.

Although I must admit, having cherubim on the ark, the location of worship of God, seems to be 'cutting it pretty close'... lol

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

I am glad this came up.

The fact, is Keep the Sabbath holy, was the command.

as time progressed, the religious leaders decided they needed to define that down to how far a person could walk to church, before walking was considered work.

They decided to define, how much or if one could take out the trash... including the previous nights waste... before it was considered work.

They worried about, if you toss something out, and there perchance was a seed in the trash, and that seed germinated, and grew, then you had done some "work' and had thus defiled the sabath.

It is clear from the Gospels that Jesus rejected this legalistic parsing of scripture. It is clear that Jesus was focused on the intent of God established in the commandments.

Even Paul discussed this in great detail. The Law being a harsh taskmaster.

The intent of the commandment to keep the Sabbath Holy was to insure that man set aside a day to worship and honor God. It was that simple.

It was also ultra radical. These were people we would consider barbarian. they were only slightly removed from Hunter/Gatherer tribes and in fact when the commandment was handed down, these were nomadic people living off the land. The amount of work (short of the Mana from heaven) to simply stay alive and protected from those who would attack them, was extreme.

Not working on one day a week would have been by all standards a very radical proposal.

But define it down to the number of steps one can or cannot take in a day? nonsense. utter legalism that defies the very nature of God.

Back to the idea of graven images.

God handed down a simple commandment. Worship God. Dont create some other god by your own hands to worship as all the other tribes around you do. simple. yet radical. EVERYBODY created their own Gods. EVERYBODY made statues and drawings and images of these gods they served.

The One True God demanded worship that was utterly different from all other false gods. He said "dont make an image and worship it. You cannot define ME by creating something with your own hands".

How does that get translated in the modern mind that is bent on legalizing things?

Oh my, I cant draw a stick figure. I cant let my kids play with Weeble Wobbles because they will fall down and worship the toy!


A lot of what we talk about here is based on men trying to define an undefinable God. This is the heart of Pauls message in Romans! "We are not bound by the law, but we are guided by GRACE!" That does not (according to Paul) give us permission to sin! God forbid! BUT it does give us command not to create sin where there is no sin.

Tittus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

We loose track of the real purpose of Grace in the life of the saved person. We get the part about being saved by Grace, thru faith and not of ourselves, but we quit grace right there. We dont hold the expectation that Grace will move on the saved person to learn and grow in Christ. That is not a corporate thing (some preacher telling folks not to wear red socks is not Grace), but those that run from legalism, often run past Grace being active too.

The balance is to not run from anything, but to reject those things that Jesus rejected. Jesus rejected both sin and legalism. Paul taught us to listen to the spirit of God and be taught by Grace....Then Peter wrapped it up by telling us to Grow in Grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ (2PET3:18)

This is in a nutshell Sanctification

I love you all. lets all strive to aviod defining how many paces we can take on Sunday without it becoming "work"... but lets all allow the spirit of God to move us to where he wants us to be....WITHOUT PROJECTING!

Re: Are toys graven images?
 

Yes, mine was a simplistic answer that didn't elaborate. You're correct, being a couch potato wasn't he intent, either. It was keeping free from distractions that would inhibit your ability to set specific time aside for God (and family, as well, I'd contend). While I'm reaching out of context into the new testament, it has bearing - set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth; where your treasurer is, there will your heart be also. Being wholly consumed with the "busy-ness" and "stuff" in this life is "unholy". Taking a day out from the daily rat race, as it were, allows us to keep our priorities on our eternal reward.

But then, Ferd already was on it. :highfive