Submission to a pastor
 

This morning, our pastor preached on the topic "Submission to authority". As with any sermon, there was some truth that could be gleaned from it. One thing I disagreed with was his view that Romans 13 is speaking of church authority. It seems pretty clear that this chapter is a general reference to civil authority.

As I listened, I wondered what had prompted him to preach this message. In the little over three years I've been a member, this is the first time I've ever heard him preach on this. One striking comment went like this....
I sat on the edge of my seat waiting for instruction in righteousness. But alas, I received none. He kept me in suspense, as so many others have done who have preached on this subject, by never really explaining what biblical submission is, and what it is not. I still have no idea was his expectations are on the matter. Another striking comment was....

How far do we take that? My AoG elders admonished my not to attend the UPC. Was I in rebellion against my authority?

On the way home, my wife and I strained our brains to think of any way Biblically that we are not in "submission" or that we might have even unknowingly undermined our pastor's authority (not that he was preaching to us).

Thoughts? Comments?

Great timing.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

There's too much preaching and not enough Teaching. "Pastoring" should be letting the word speak. Teach. Educate. Inform. Empower

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

I couldn't help but wonder. But again, what is "submission"? How am I NOT "submitting"?

You are not submitting by going elsewhere. Haha. It is not your fault that he couldn't "persuade" you. ;)

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Is he asking/ordering you to do something? To many if not most, submission means to come to the meetings, give amens, and of course pay tithes and offerings.

Not much other than that.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

When the bible speaks of submitting, is it in the Lord or to the word they teach or is it to any whim that person can think of?

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

There is an hierarchy in our relationship with God that must be followed in order to have a proper relationship with God....

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Paul was teaching that as long as he followed Christ, then follow him. But, don't forget the head of every man is Christ, not the preacher, not the pastor or evangelist, but Christ.

When someone starts teaching pastoral authority, I don't listen to much else they have to say. That means the pastor isn't leading by example. Of course what would help tremendously is for the members of that congregation to actually study and read the bible for themselves instead of looking for a man to lord over them.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Wow...you finally got something right :-)

Seriously, that was good.

I view Pastors as facilitators

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

I had the spirit of Jezebel on me according to my old pastor. My marriage is cursed because we did not obey according to my wife'e old pastor.

We would be still be in UPC and single and the thought of that grieves me.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Thoughts? Comments????? You know just about everyone here will cater to what you want to hear to help you justify what you are doing. And I'm not saying u are doing anything right or wrong because I don't know your situation and i am only hearing one side.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

I view them as councilors who's advice you should take seriously, but they are NOT in any way shape or form, the head of the household who should be making family decisions.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

:highfive Good words.....sounds like "commonsense"!

oh please

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

And just what is it that I am "doing"? I have not "done" anything. Even if I do not agree I keep my opinions to myself.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

I hear a lot abotu Pastoral authority. My Pastor is a BIG fan of the whole "man of God" schtick. The sp[ecial anointing of it. That God will speak to his chosen man, and that man will speak for God to the church so if YOU want to hear form God...it will be through your Pastor. Always uses the same old OT verses over and over to prop up an idea that is foreign to the NT church. So yeah...I hear a lot of it. My Pastor was raised to believe that stongly and he is reproducing what he is in most of our church. People who are good little obediant saints who never imagine questioning or disagreeing with the "man of God".

It scares the poo out of me to be that weak minded and surrendered to any man, but some people must love letting a man they REALLY don't know make most decisions for them.

Now to be clear, he is a great guy and a very good Pastor, but I am still uncomfortable with even good men overstepping their scriptural bounds.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Paul said: "follow me, as I follow Christ."

My previous pastor told me: "don't follow men, follow God."

for me, I want to have a relationship with God through prayer, fasting, and the word to make sure the church leadership is following Christ; and then follow them as they follow Christ.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Romans 13:1-8

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.

For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Nice try. That is speaking of civil government.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

He hasn't reached the Jim Jones level yet has he? If not, grin, bear it, and submit!!

no

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

The rules (if we should call them that) of submission, in my opinion, are as follows, in this order:

1.) Every saved man first and foremost must always submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

2.) Every married woman should submit first and foremost not only to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, but also to her head, which is her husband. And to no one else, except where the wife participates in a ministry led by another saint other than the husband, but ONLY as it relates to that ministry. The husband, however, still has veto power on the wife's involvement/level of participation.

3.) Children should submit to their parents, or any other family, allowed by the parents, to offer correction and discipline, such as grand-parents, and etc.

4.) Both unmarried men and unmarried women, after submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, must also submit to the elders of the local assembly.

5.) A non-elder, that is a new to newer convert, must submit to the elders of his or her local assembly. On this, the matter is simple. If it's not sin, doesn't go against the conscience, will not lead to damage or division in the family or church, or doesn't contradict the Scriptures or violate any personally received and established divine directive from the Holy Spirit, submit.

6.) Elders should be in submission to each other, all being in submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

7.) Elders should also, at times, submit to the younger converts, as Christ molds and matures them to be used as an expression of His will in the Body.

8.) All should submit themselves to all civil authority, except in cases where abuse of authority or the enticement or forced committal of sin is involved.

Regarding submission to a pastor, if the pastor is an elder (and why would the pastor not be an elder), #4 through #7 apply.

With that all being said, it would do many a saint a good turn to really study the Greek words behind the following: obey, submit, subject, subjection, over, rule.

They don't always mean what many would say they mean, in regards to submission to a pastor or other authority.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Since you asked. :nod

According to your last update, regarding when you met with this Pastor, he had no issue nor did he tell/ask/beg you to stay. In fact, it read as though he still has good thoughts of you.

Do you have a persecution complex? This is the second time I've read a post by you in which you've felt singled out by a message your Pastor preached. Maybe he wasn't preaching at you at all. I bet there were several others there thinking the same thing. "Why is Pastor singling me out????"

Preaching that kind of message is like a televangelist claiming to have supernatural gifts which lead him to call out the person watching who is sick with a disease.....you'll have a lot of people claiming the message is directed solely at them.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

The very fact you and your wife are 'wondering' should be plenty of evidence to you what is going on. A teacher in the church has the job of building up the saints, equipping them for service. Are you being equipped? Are you being built up?

God never ordained passive agrressive 'preaching'.

If there is 'sin in the camp' and anybody leaves the meeting not sure if THEY were being spoken to, then the preacher did not do his job.

If the message is of such a general nature that everyone is left wondering 'am I failing? Does the pastor think I am not living right? What was that all about?' and people have a generally uneasy feeling, without any concrete, plain, in your face, undeniable FACTS to work with, then the message is an example of witchcraft, mind control, psychological manipulation.

And ought to be discarded, along with the entire system that supports and promotes such garbage.

Of course, all this may not be the case, and it may be that you just have a guilty conscience...

:icecream

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Esaias, I would like clarification.

It seems to me that Jesus, at the Last Supper, mentioned that one would betray Him that night. Each disciple questioned "Is it me"?

I don't see why a preacher can't make a general statement, and for the sake of kindness, not name names, but still mention how the statement may apply to certain or some people in the congregation at the time the statement was made, without it being...

Please explain.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

I do not take offense to rebuke/correction. I do, however prefer that it be direct and to the point. I value the times that my pastor has "sat me down". To be honest, I remember more of what my pastor has spoken to me in private one on one conversation than I do what he has preached from the pulpit. I'm not in anyway trying to minimize preaching. I just realize that I need a man of God who has his hands on my life, not just preaches to me.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Agreed, to both.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

"...to whom..is due..." Who judges what is due, but the individual in relationship with God. It is the immature that suck up everything another lays out without due consideration.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

#8 bolded, should preface each of your list.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

A biblical servant leader does not have, "...to have his hand on your life..." T

yeah. I'm not sure what he meant by that. I don't want to make assumptions.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

It facinates me that pastors always preach about their authority.

What about Ephesians 4:15?
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers


Where's the authority of a Prophet or Apostle within a church?

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

:thumbsup

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

A worthy point. Well taken. Thanks!

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Before the following:

1 Corinthians 12:28,

Some just forget that as governments (i.e. pastors and other leaders who pilot the church), they are seventh on the list.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Lots of talk here about who submits to who, but am curious as to what exactly "submitting" means.

Is "submitting" to a pastor the same as a wife submitting to a husband? And on that note. . . .

Who here would cancel family vacation plans if their pastor said so?

Who here seeks permission from their pastor before a job change? (Note, I said seeks permission, NOT "Seeks advice", which I believe is almost always a good idea if there is any doubt about any big life changes. But I would expect a husband and wife to discuss this long before bringing the pastor into it, but then again that is why I am asking what others think.)

Any one here ever ask their pastors permission to marry? What if he said no?

And even before it got to that, did anyone here ever ask him permission to date a particular person? While dating, did your parents set your curfew (if you had one) or did the pastor?

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Good question, I was kinda wondering this myself. No I don't ask permission of my pastor regarding: what to wear, where to work, who to marry, if I can vacation, or where to live. These questions for permission are of no interest to him anyway. I guess this is the difference between a pastor walking in the calling to lead vs. those that seek to manage or corral the flock. As for submitting to my pastor; I submit to his ministry when he preaches, prays with me, encourages me or corrects my mistakes. I submit to his ministry even when I disagree with his opinion by granting him the respect that is due to him. In short, submission at the very least involves respect and regard for the pastor but Im not so sure that it means blind obedience.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

I am pretty sure everyone here has a different opinion on what exactly "submitting to a pastor" means. On one extreme "submitting to a pastor" (or any spiritual authority) is a purely nebulous concept without any practical application and on the other extreme it is a world of "Pastor! May I? May I?". I will admit to personally being far closer to the first extreme than the latter. Regardless while there will ALWAYS be those who will slit their own throat or drink any flavor Kool-Aid at the slightest utterance of the "man of gawd!", I find this extreme teaching regarding submitting and authority has lessened considerably over the past several decades.

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

If you are not formally involved in any day-to-day ministry of the church (which we no longer are), do you feel compelled to even tell the pastor - not ask permission, but simply inform him - that you'll be "out of town" one Sunday?

Re: Submission to a pastor
 

Thankfully, I believe that there are MANY more nowadays who go the "inform" route than what I saw while I was serving time, errrr, I mean attending church during the 80's when you were expected to ask permission.