The Bible Is Secondary
 

The early Christians didn't have a bible to use but were led by the Spirit. What's the problem today, can't people be led by the Spirit as those in the early Church?

The bible has caused divisions among Christians because most Christians would rather have a relationship with a book than with the Spirit of Good. Lay aside the bible for a few weeks, you may actually learn that God will speak to you personally.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Cast out the Bible and soon you will start to understand what DIVISION AND CONFUSION looks like. You will find that everyone has his own revelations and beliefs.

We are COMMANDED rather to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Jude 3

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The Bible is our friend. Through it we can check the doctrines and revelations of men......as compared to the apostles of Christ.

AMEN!!!!!

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Shoot, we have that WITH the Bible. But I agree it would be orders of magnitude worse without it.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

They had the Hebrew/Greek OT. They had the Oral traditions of the Apostles. They had copies of whatever NT book they would get.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Very true.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Roughly, for the first 50-60 years they had nothing, just the Spirit leading them.

If one cannot hear or obey the Spirit, following the bible is an option, but is a relatively poor second choice.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I disagree.

They had the oral traditions from the Apostles and they shared letters written to each church.

Col 4:16 And after you have read this letter, have it read to the church of Laodicea. In turn, read the letter from Laodicea as well.

2Th 3:6 But we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who lives an undisciplined life and not according to the tradition you received from us.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold on to the traditions that we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.

Paul went from church to church teaching them

Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul began to speak to the people, and because he intended to leave the next day, he extended his message until midnight.
Act 20:8 (Now there were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.)
Act 20:9 A young man named Eutychus, who was sitting in the window, was sinking into a deep sleep while Paul continued to speak for a long time. Fast asleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead.

1Co 4:17 For this reason, I have sent Timothy to you, who is my dear and faithful son in the Lord. He will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.


1Ti 4:13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

Php 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ so that — whether I come and see you or whether I remain absent — I should hear that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, by contending side by side for the faith of the gospel,

2Co 13:2 I said before when I was present the second time and now, though absent, I say again to those who sinned previously and to all the rest, that if I come again, I will not spare anyone,

1Co 14:6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I help you unless I speak to you with a revelation or with knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

Rom 15:29 and I know that when I come to you I will come in the fullness of Christ's blessing.

1Th 4:1 Finally then, brothers and sisters, we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received instruction from us about how you must live and please God (as you are in fact living) that you do so more and more.

As did Timothy who was instructed by Paul
2Ti 4:2 Preach the message, be ready whether it is convenient or not, reprove, rebuke, exhort with complete patience and instruction.

1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to spread false teachings,
As did John
3Jn 1:10 Therefore, if I come, I will call attention to the deeds he is doing — the bringing of unjustified charges against us with evil words! And not being content with that, he not only refuses to welcome the brothers himself, but hinders the people who want to do so and throws them out of the church!

And probably even Titus
Tit 2:1 But as for you, communicate the behavior that goes with sound teaching.

Tit 2:15 So communicate these things with the sort of exhortation or rebuke that carries full authority. Don't let anyone look down on you.

Not to mention the many other named and unnamed fellow laborers.

They had Teachers

2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not give him any greeting,

Who Taught the teachings of Christ
2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not remain in the teaching of Christ does not have God. The one who remains in this teaching has both the Father and the Son.

They taught the Truth
2Ti 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.

They taught the scriptures (The OT)
2Ti 3:16 Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

1Ti 4:13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.

Christian teaching
1Ti 6:1 Those who are under the yoke as slaves must regard their own masters as deserving of full respect. This will prevent the name of God and Christian teaching from being discredited.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Nobody in Paul's church said, open to 1 John, for it had not been written in the early church for example. It was produced about 100 AD. They taught and extorted according to the Spirit. I'm sure those who were with Jesus, in Peter's church for example, would relate the sayings of Jesus but there was no bible as such.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I never said they had a bible, except for the OT.

Im pointing out they DID have the teachings of the Apostles and others verbally and written which includes some of what are in our NT today

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

When I am being led of the Spirit and/or God speaks to me personally, 9.99 times out of 10, He gives me direction from the written Word and/or quotes the written Word when talking with/to me, respectively.

In fact, I think an argument can be made that the whole reason God has preserved a written oracle and canon for all time is because being "led by the Spirit" only is a disaster waiting to happen. Notice the quotes. Millions of supposedly "led by the Spirit" people have contradicted the written Word of God to their own destruction.

Some "led by the Spirit" folk even say the Holy Spirit led them to body slam and drop kick seekers in the face so that they could be healed.

It's all about balance. The other side of the scale is not secondary; it's essential to the mechanism. It doesn't work without both.

Prax is correct. The 1st century church had plenty of written Word, enough to be saved and live a moral life of righteousness.

In Samuel's day, there was no open vision. The word of the Lord was precious, meaning rare. Most didn't have access to any written documents, only oral tradition.

And guess when Samuel's day was? At the end of the book of Judges, when every man did "that which was right in his own eyes".

And if many of the events of the Book of Judges don't shock and dismay you, then phew...I don't know what to say. Same with those who disregard the written Word for a feeling after of the Spirit only type mentality.

1 Timothy 4:13-15,

Wonder what Timothy was commanded to read and give himself wholly to?

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

AMEN!

We are told, in God's Word, that every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus. Yet we read,

If every knee shall bow before Jesus, how could He honor His Word above His name? I believe it is because we will be judged by the Word.

.

Gods Word, the Bible is the only stable Truth in the world. There are deep levels that most do not attain to, or have any idea, what is being taught, therefore they take a superficial glance and dismiss it as old fashioned or not relevant for today.

Without God's Word, man would have no idea how to be saved, or how to live a righteous and holy life. On his own, mankind are heathens.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

We can have both... personal relationship and the Bible. However, I do think that one can make an idol of the Bible. It's been over 2,000 years now since Christ walked the earth. The Gospels were written years after his death and contain some discrepancies based on each author's humanity, but nothing tragically serious. The Epistles reflect guidance given to the early church on various matters. From them we glean how our churches should function. The only problem with the Bible is that it is a written document. Which means that it is largely left open for the reader's interpretation. The more led of the Spirit one is, the greater chance of proper interpretation.

I believe that the Spirit revealed something to me a couple years ago. God is love. That is the very essence of His nature. Therefore, when examining interpretations of Scripture consider which interpretation is the most loving. Most merciful.

Lastly, the Bible is vague on some subjects. Others aren't mentioned at all. In these areas we do well to seek guidance from the Spirit as to what course of action God desires us to take as individuals with regards to a given subject.

That's my take on it.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I don't discount that at all. But the more intimate the relationship, the less one has to write to convey their feelings. Many many many many years ago when my wife and I were dating but I was away in college, I cherished receiving her letters. They brought comfort to me and helped until I could see her. But those letters, however precious, were nothing to compare to our relationship with each other. An "I love you" in a letter is wonderful, but nothing captures the depth and meaning of "I love you" when the person in your embrace says it.

Likewise, it's nice to read the love letters of the bible, but it's an entirely different matter to have a personal intimate relationship with the person revealed in the letters.

Lay the bible down. Development a relationship with God. The bible will become less and less important for you simply have a relationship with God instead of reading about God.

Could it be that the most egregious acts within Christianity occurred because of the bible? For example, growing up, my closest friend's dad was a minister, probably the meanest man I've ever personally known. His son, my friend, was terrified of him literaly shaking if his father looked at him a certain way. I lived a couple of houses down the street from him and could literaly hear his dad beating him. Sadly, as soon at my friend graduated high school, he left and has never darkened a Church door again.

Forget the bible, would a person being led by the Spirit do such things? Of course not. Now, take the bible at it's word....

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Those are allegedly words of wisdom from God Himself. Now, does the Spirit of God lead people to obey that or does the Spirit of God lead people do disobey that passage?

Just be careful with the bible. It's useful, but it's far from the most important thing in serving God.

But it does work without them both....if a person has the correct relationship with God. I don't have to read my wife's love letters, I've had an intimate relationship with her for about 50 years now. I know her. She knows me. Far better than any words on a page could explain it.

Yes, I wonder. There was no books of the bible at the time, so what was he referring to? Could it be possible that the readings were letters not included in our bible?

Get to know the author instead of reading about the author. That would result in not needing letters. Why would I write a letter to my wife when she's sitting right next to me?

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I don't discount that at all. But the more intimate the relationship, the less one has to write to convey their feelings. Many many many many years ago when my wife and I were dating, but I was away in college, I cherished receiving her letters. They brought comfort to me and helped until I could see her. But those letters, however precious, were nothing to compare to our relationship with each other. An "I love you" in a letter is wonderful, but nothing captures the depth and meaning of "I love you" when the person in your embrace says it.

Likewise, it's nice to read the love letters of the bible, but it's an entirely different matter to have a personal intimate relationship with the person revealed in the letters.

Lay the bible down. Develop a relationship with God. The bible will become less and less important for you simply have a relationship with God instead of reading about God.

Could it be that the most egregious acts within Christianity occurred because of the bible? For example, growing up, my closest friend's dad was a minister, probably the meanest man I've ever personally known. His son, my friend, was terrified of him literaly shaking if his father looked at him a certain way. I lived a couple of houses down the street from him and could literally hear his dad beating him. Sadly, as soon at my friend graduated high school, he left and has never darkened a Church door again.

Forget the bible, would a person being led by the Spirit do such things? Of course not. Now, take the bible at it's word....

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Those are allegedly words of wisdom from God Himself. Now, does the Spirit of God lead people to obey that or does the Spirit of God lead people do disobey that passage?

Just be careful with the bible. It's useful, but it's far from the most important thing in serving God.

But it does work without them both....if a person has the correct relationship with God. I don't have to read my wife's love letters, I've had an intimate relationship with her for about 50 years now. I know her. She knows me. Far better than any words on a page could explain it.

Yes, I wonder. There were no books of the bible at the time, so what was he referring to? Could it be possible that the readings were letters not included in our bible? I'm not sure if you wish to go down this slippery slope. :)

Get to know the author instead of reading about the author. That would result in not needing letters. Why would I write a letter to my wife when she's sitting right next to me?

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I agree with this 100%!!!

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I think most fundamentalist Christians have made an idol out of the Bible. Or, I should say parts of it. And have ignored other parts believing their interpretation is the authoritative version.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

What's the problem? There are too many God-hating deceivers, such as yourself, purposing to persuade people away from the Gospel.

His Word is the sword with which true believers combat the lies and heresies that spew from the mouths of people such as yourself.

It would only make sense that since you have shown time and time again to utterly despise the principles and truths revealed and God’s Word that you would eventually become bold enough to challenge it’s authority or even it’s value.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Actually, it's loving God more than a book which consists of paper and ink.

Speaking of heresies, you never revealed who the "children of the devil" according to the sermon the Lambeth fella preached. You were all pumped, ranting how good the conference was, but nothing about what was preached.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

he identified no one as the children of the devil

i already answered your question

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Ok, what was it about if not identifying who children of the devil were? You said..."Brad Lambeth- Children of the Devil (Tremendous message with a very powerful move of the Holy Ghost. This man is deep in the things of the Spirit.)". What was this tremendous message about if not children of the devil?

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

By and large, many Christians of all traditions have done this.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I suppose.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Yes.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

They had the OT. They had letters from the Apostles. They had the oral teachings of the Apostles as well as those commissioned and taught by the Apostles the words of Jesus.

Just because they did not have a complete NT from Matthew to Revelation does not mean they relied completely on direct revelation from the Spirit

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

What letters did they have available? Yes, they had the oral teachings of the Apostles but a standardized bible (and I'm not talking about the canon approved in the late 4th century) wasn't available to them. Peter didn't read Paul in his early church for Paul didn't write anything until the mid 1st century. Same for Paul in his church. He didn't teach from the writings of Peter for Peter didn't write his epistles until probably the late 1st century. There are good arguments that Peter didn't actually write the book attributed to him.
No doubt there were letters from various christian authors in the mid to latter 1st century, but we don't have a single solitary original snippet of them.

Fact is, we don't have a single solitary original snippet of what anyone wrote. We are demanded to have faith that the scribes which copied the original texts were 100% accurate in their copying. The thing is, subsuquent to the original texts there were copying mistakes on top of copying mistakes. There were passages added that were not in the earliest (don't know about the original) manuscripts, such as 1 John 5:7.

If we have a personal intimate relationship with God, we don't have to worry about what was added...or taken away.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I hate to be the one to say this. Nonetheless what we see here is a classic example of the way tares operate. Leave no stone unturned in trying to destroy faith in Christ. Keep tearing away at the scriptures till there is no way a person could trust the Bible.

Friends the devil has no better way of snuffing out our faith and dragging us back to a life of sin and forsaking the Christ.

According to some here one would be a fool to have any faith that the Bible is a supernatural gift from God. It is according to them merely mens ideas about the Christ and his teachings written decades after the apostles were dead. Then it was changed and miscopied many times over.

What better place for tares to spread their doctrines than on public message boards and forums?

The wheat and tares must grow together until the end. Be very careful what you receive in your heart.

True we have various topics we disagree about. That itself is a shame. But if someone believes in a Bible that is given to us by God there is always hope in coming to unity.

Once the Bible has been discredited the faith of that person is overthrown. Some of them will slide on back to the world of sin quietly. Others then like some here will make it their life mission to overthrow the faith of others.

Very serious business.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I already answered that question earlier when I quotes scriptures

I already told you TWICE now I never said they had a COMPLETE NT bible. You aren't really reading what Im saying

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Bump

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

Yes I am, you're not getting what I'm saying. What you're not doing is identifying what letters they DID have available. Start with the ascension of Jesus and work your way forward.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

What letters? Identify them.

Oh my... What is it with people asking for proof???

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Wow...how many times do I need to do that?

Seriously.
Roman church had Romans.
Corinth church had 1 and 2 Corinthians
Galatians had their letter etc etc etc..

And the verses I posted shows evidence they SHARED these Letters.

Include 1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the holy brothers.

Which letters exactly each church had is irrelevant to what I have BEEN saying.

The early church had Letters, the Oral teachings of the Apostles and their fellow laborers and the OT scriptures

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

You're not starting at the beginning. :)

What letters, what scripture, was used the year after Jesus ascended? Or the first 20 years?

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I already answered that. I don't know. I just know the early church, before the canon was organized into One bible SHARED letters, HAD the Oral teachings of the Apostles and their fellow laborers AND they had the OT

The Oral teachings of the Apostles is the same as having Letters. When the church began in the first 20 years of so, it was not a million members spanning the world. Apostles and workers went from church to church teaching them. See the verses I posted.

They also already had the OT scriptures.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

The teachings of Christ were published by many at the beginning.

Luke 1:1-4

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

I do know, if the theologians are correct. The first letter was 1st Thessalonians or Galatians, depending on what scholar one wishes to believe and written about 30 years after Christ.. The point is, during those 30 formative years of the Church, there were no writings which are included in the final canon.

How did they grow the Church? By the leading of the Spirit.

Yes, they had the OT scriptures, but the New Covenant didn't have as it's foundation the Old Covenant. And yes, Christianity was spread by the members of that early, pre-canon church. When the letters began, that's when the breakup into different sects began. Within a couple of hundred years there were many many Christian sects who separated themselves from each other even though they had common letters. This is because they weren't spiritually led, but theology led and power hungry.

No scripture was given in the first few decades is the point. Yet the Church grew by leaps and bounds simply by allow the Spirit.

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Nothing there about any pre-apostolic letters. The earliest letters are about mid-first century.

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They had the ORAL teachings of the Apostles. The Apostles were taught by Jesus and they in turn taught the church. They had the words of Jesus and the Apostles

In addition they had the OT.

Re: The Bible Is Secondary
 

No thats not the point. The point is they did NOT simply just "follow the Spirit".

They HAD scriptures, the OT. And they had the words of the Apostles and their fellow laborers.

Much of the NT quotes the OT.