We are officially a family without a church
 

But we are still part of THE church.

What now, Lord?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Yay for you! Congratulations on this first difficult step. You steps will be ordered by the Lord. Peace, my friend. ;)

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Well now your relationship with the Lord will grow.

what, why?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Simply that we want God to show what He wants us to do now.

the nerve of some people... stepping out and trusting God

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Yup, now that the whole pesky bothersome part of having a pastor, teacher, elders, etc that the Bible talks about are gone out of his life.

I always find it amusing when folks post like you just did that somehow it is better for people not to be a part of a church even though the epistles clearly teach the role of pastors, teachers, etc in our lives.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Heb_10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Ephesians chapter 4 beginning at verse 11 speaks to the role of the church, pastors, teaches, etc in the christian's life.

This is not to say there won't be a time in a person's life when they are between churches but those times should be few and far between and should not be for an extended period of time.

My observation over many decades is that if folks don't plug into another church in a timely manner they usually start to enjoy pastoring themselves even though it is not the biblical pattern for their spiritual growth.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Who gets the tithes?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Who does the anointing with oil?

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

That is an easy one! TV preacher.:happydance

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

It depends. Practically all of the Pastors, Teachers, and Elders out there now are teaching false doctrine. It may be the only way to save ourselves in such cases.

Now IF the said Ministers teach New Testament truth we are certainly to submit to them and walk in truth.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Sometimes it is better to have no pastor at all than to have a bad pastor... If the way you read the bible doesn't allow you to admit that then you need to take a step back from your dogma and start living in the world that God actually created.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

There are no tithes in the NT.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I am an elder. I'm licensed with an OP organization.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

We aeembled yesterday and had church. How is that "forsaking the assembling"?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Are pastor pastoring themselves? Furthermore, I do not plan to be hasty at all in my next step.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

An astute observation.:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

The root of most spiritual problems is money. Just saying. That is wanting to keep God's money.:thumbsup

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

You were without a pastor for a little while when you left the UPC weren't you?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Who is the pastor's pastor? (Especially if it is an independent church?) Who is the general superintendent's pastor?

I guess for me, since we pastored a Home Missions church for 5 years and an established work for 5 years and essentially nobody above us gave a rip, we were without a pastor all those years except for ourselves. This "You need a pastor" stuff seems like a crock. I wanted a pastor/mentor all that time. But could I actually find someone to make that investment? Ha! Some people are just orphans not by choice. Then, they get used to it.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Amen, Brother Frog!

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Is there a Spanish speaking community you can reach out to there?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Yes i agree that money is usually the problem. But it is normally the ministers who have the problem and not the members.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I've felt the same way for years. This last pastor certainly was no mentor for me. Just don't miss a service , pay your tithes, and everything will be just fine.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Like ministers who gain by extortion with threats?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I am not amused by anything that seeker posts.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

:thumbsupI am not going to judge the original poster of this thread since I know nothing of him nor his pastor. But I can tell you from a pastor's standpoint some folks won't allow you to pastor them. You can never do enough or spend enough time with them. You love them but they are so self absorbed it is useless. And yes after a time you just have to move on to those who want your help and allow these type of folks to do whatever they are going to do. And hope for the best. My experience they generall succeed in destroying their families and the majority of the time they either backslide or windup in some false church decieved. But in techo land today the computer becomes their pastor and church and they hang out with renegades who hate all that is true and holy. But they do find comfort from folks just like themselves.
Yes there are self absorbed pastors who only think of a paycheck like most saints I know.:thumbsup No one criticizes a saint for expected a good pay check or a raise or nice things only the preacher. You reckon some still have the Catholic mentality of the oath of poverty the priest takes? Think about it.:thumbsup

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

You hit it! :thumbsup

I have seen my pastor pour unbelievable amounts of precious time, prayers and tears into one soul only to see them trample all over his efforts. Then they get in a low place and reach out and he is there to help again. The only explanation I have for such an example is a genuine burden that can ONLY come from God.

In my opinion, humble, God-called pastors should be the richest folks on the earth...and i suppose in some sense they probably are. I would not begrudge my pastor of having ANY type of wealth or material blessing.

The only downfall of such blessings is that it can lead to pride. I do pray that God not give us more than what we can handle while maintaining a right spirit.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Exactly. I know exactly what you mean.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I think that some pastors have spent time pouring themselves into people only to be disappointed when they backslide and then they become burnt out and put up a wall out of self defense. That's only human and understandable. But these types of pastors also need to understand that when they are burnt out and refuse to do anything but go through the motions and won't let people past a certain point with them emotionally that it has an effect. And this effect is not really the saddest point.

The saddest point is when these pastors refuse to admit they are falling short because they have been hurt and are not giving what they should to their congregants and then they blame the congregants as unwilling to give all for the kingdom's sake (or they would not be feeling the way they do) and the congregants believe them. That is the saddest point of all, when they are very good, giving, loving people who feel unloved, unappreciated and taken for granted but they blame themselves because their own pastor blames them. It usually takes years and years to begin to see the truth.

The truth is that their pastor is not a bad person, necessarily, but a hurt one and has a wall up. It becomes abusive when that pastor blames others for their own shortcomings, refusing to admit any fault in the situation. This type of pastor loves congregants who are satisfied with the status quo, don't need anything, don't ask questions and pay tithes. Those who take more energy are often sidelined and marginalized as "troublemakers" when the pastor has bundled these people into the same category as the people they were hurt by. But it is not fair to blame people who ask questions and need a little help for the hurt the pastor has already experienced.

The only solution for the pastor in this situation is to look to heal his own hurt. That isn't easy but is totally necessary.

The only solution for a congregant in this situation is to realize he cannot control someone else and he is not at fault, forgive the shortcomings of his present pastor and go somewhere else if he cannot live under those circumstances.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Fascinating to me how you used the word "most," as in "most saints I know" (only think of a paycheck.) This is very telling concerning the dichotomy of "the ministry" vs. "the saints." Fascinating, but of course you should consider the source, here.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

My reply is in sarcassism to meet the onslaught of attacks made on the ministry here. In truth MOST saints are hardworking devoted people who love God-the church-the ministry. AND most saints I know do like to recieve good pay checks and nice things and NOTHING wrong in that. So why should the preacher be any different? Would you work if you knew you wasn't getting paid? Would you change jobs for better pay? See no sin in that. But any preacher that is blessed financially on this forum is reduced to a money hungry creep who loves power and money. But you folks don't handle it too well when I hand it back to you.:highfive
No one ever fusses about how much the preacher makes when he is paying the bills and keeping the doors open only when his labor has paid off and he can live a little better then comes the insults. I rejoice when a saint gets a raise or a bonus. Moves into a nicer house or buys a nicer auto-takes a nice vacation. Why should a saint complain when the saem happens to his pastor? SELAH!

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

This isn't directed at either of you. You both mentioned Pastors as mentors and I have a question about that.

Is it really the responsibility, duty, or role of a Pastor to be a mentor? And what exactly is the role of a Pastor? Other than being the punching bag or person we blame if things don't work out the way we think they should.

IMO, it'd be good for a Pastor to either directly mentor others, or have a board of church elders who can do this, but it's not required as part of their role or duty.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I don't think the majority of folks on here would criticize a pastor earning a regular salary with appropriate amount of time off (vacation) as well as regular, appropriate increases in salary.

The issue comes with the perceived lack of commitment on the part of some who choose that profession to actually pastor in a Biblical fashion. On the one hand, you have pastors who lord over their congregations. On the other hand, you have pastors who open the doors of the church, preach their due, and are emotionally distant and don't have a true attitude of leadership and mentorship to those in their congregations.

I've experienced both. I've also experienced the rare gem of a pastor who - even looking back now - it surprises me how he and his wife find time to make real connections and relationships with people. When we go back to visit that area, they are still so happy to see us and make time out for us. I wish circumstances were different and we could move back, but we can't at the moment.

It's not about receiving money for a job. It's about going through the motions and expecting the pay check. I have someone who provides me a salary based on my performance. And while I don't think that pastors should be on a performance plan, necessarily, is it fair for them to just sit back and collect the cash when they're not doing much, if anything, to grow their church physically and spiritually?

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I am glad that my pastor and his family are blessed financially and I firmly believe that he is worthy of his wages he labors among us. It is my constant prayer that God would increase my pastors faith, wisdom and finances.

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

Sadly I agree. Many pastors lack the burden or appitude. Some of this is because many times regardless what they do they are not appreciated thus they become cynical and distant. Others are just aloof and arogant and will pay for it in time. But a true shepherd has a servant's heart they love the flock they don't have to take time the saints are their time. I never want to forget what I am called to do. The flock does not belong to me it belongs to Him He has placed them under my care. So in reality I am like a glorified spiritual babysitter and I had better treat His kids right or He will fire me or discipline me.
Now to clarify my statements about saints who do not appreciate their pastors has zero to do with me. I am humbled and blessed beyond messure by the wonderful undeserving treatment I recieve from the precious saints I am endeavoring to pastor. They deserve better but unfortunely for them ans fortunatelly for me they are stuck with me. I marvel that such a great church can be pastored by such a poor pastor. The mystery of mysteries. But I ain't complaining.:happydance

Re: We are officially a family without a church
 

I think pastors should make a salary that is average for the people around him. Nothing wrong with that. And if he manages it well, hopefully he will have something to show for it. Pastors should make at least a living wage but not too much either, like those who have air-conditioned dog houses. ;) Their wage should not be a reproach to the church.

That isn't the issue here. The issue is burnt out pastors who blame new saints for their weariness and hurt when it stems from by-gone saints and perhaps the pastors not knowing how to have good boundaries that kept them from getting so hurt in the first place. Now, they have a wall instead of decent boundaries.