Two Salvational Experiences
 

In light of all the salvational discussions ongoing here on this forum, I thought I would share my thoughts. I'm not a theologian, and certainly don't claim to have insight to all the answers. But I wanted to share the journey I’ve been on, and some of my thoughts.

When I first left OP establishment, I was questioning all of it. So many of the things that I had experienced in the church were not biblical, and for that reason, I questioned everything. I questioned the Oneness, Holy Ghost baptism, speaking in tongues, water baptism, along with all the holiness "standards".

I knew that I didn't want to throw the "baby" out with the bath water. I knew there were many things I didn't understand, but the difference was that now I was free to question, seek, and search for the truth.

There have been many years of searching, and wanting to hold onto and preserve the Apostles truth, but also endeavoring to throw out the layers of men's teachings that had come through the generations of Pentecost that really were extra-biblical.

That is really hard to do.

However, one thing became quite clear to me through all of this. If it was important to the Apostles, then it should be important to me. If the apostles practiced, preached, and taught it, then this is what I should do also, regardless of "why" they may have done it.

The whole discussion of whether water baptism in the name of Jesus in and of itself is the particular format that “saves” someone will no doubt continue to go in circles. However, I do know this… the apostles practiced and did it, as without a doubt there are many scriptures that record this in the book of Acts... and if it was good for them... it is good for me.

I will not go so far as to tell someone they are headed to hell if they don't do these things... (reason for this discussed below), because that is between them and God... I am not the judge, He is... but as for me, if the apostles did it, I need to do it too.

That is how I understand it now. If it worked for the apostles, then it can work for me too. If they baptized with immersion in water in the name of Jesus, why would I not want to do it? There were those in the book of Acts who believed (Cornelius), and had not received the Holy Ghost, but when they realized there was more to this walk with the Lord than just believing, they believed AND they received the Holy Ghost. Quite simple, as in Cornelius’ case! We KNOW they spoke in a language different from their own, whether or men or angel's we don't know... even on another occasion, Simon the sorcerer *heard* them speaking in tongues, and wanted the gift that they had. It was something you could hear. It was an evidence that left no doubt to those around.

Why would I not want the same kind of experience today, when it is available for me?

I would not go so far as to tell someone they are "going to hell" if they don't have the evidence (read on and I’ll explain why), but instead I would rather point them to the Giver, to the one who wants them to receive, and encourage them to seek the Giver of the Gift of the Holy Ghost in order to receive the power from on high.

We don’t see the apostles proclaiming to those who believed, but hadn’t received the gift that they were “going to hell”… (I don’t see that kind of talk mentioned to the house of Cornelius!) No, a thousand times no! Instead, what Peter did was show them the next step in receiving their full measure of salvation! They didn’t condemn Cornelius to hell because he had only just believed, but instead instructed him that there was more!

I am convinced that there are TWO experiences possible for the believer, and they build on each other. For some - they receive both experiences at the same time; for others - it can be two separate experiences.

I believe that first experience must be when one comes to the cross, and believes on Calvary, and the work done there, much like the disciples believed that Jesus was Lord, even before Calvary. They believed, they loved Him, but they were still lacking. Their belief was not enough. There is an act of repentance that comes when faced with the cross, much as the disciples I'm sure repented of their unbelief when faced with the death of Christ on the cross.

But that wasn't all there was. The greater experience was yet to come, in the Upper Room. This is when after believing, and repenting, they experienced the gift of the POWER from on high, as evidenced by speaking in an unknown language.

When you see Peter after the day of Pentecost, he was not the weak, tongue-tied, scared, lying soul, (whom he had been after he had believed and while at the cross)... but when he received the POWER, it revolutionized his life, changed him completely, and caused him to be BOLD. There was a complete change in Him after the Upper Room experience!

This example, I believe, should be the one with which we understand where the Evangelicals are with their doctrine of "believism". Just believe, and that's enough.

No, it's not... there is more available to us through the POWER of the indwelling spirit of Christ. If we haven't received the power, we just need to ask, because the Giver of the gift desires for us all to partake of it!

I stand against the lie that that you can just "believe and be saved" after going full circle these many years. I believe we need the infilling of the POWER of Christ in our lives in order to lead overcoming lives that are pleasing to the Lord. Faith is part of it all, essential to all, but without the power, those who are still at the cross, believing, and have not advanced to the power available to them are subject to dismal failures as they progress through their spiritual walk with the Lord.

We must have a cross experience, a repentance experience, and part of that involves baptism, which is symbolically identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But after that, it is most imperative that we move on then to the Upper Room experience, which is where that gift of power comes to us with the evidence of tongues! Because of that power from on high, we can be changed from being a believer, to being an OVERCOMER.

I want to uphold, and show others Jesus, the Gift Giver. I believe we can have far more success with people to show them the example of two experiences, and encourage them to move on from just believing, to having an overcoming experience and walk with Christ. However, if we point fingers, and tell them they are “going to hell”, they will turn away in disgust, when faced with that kind of judgment and condemnation.

Don’t play down the experiences someone has had, but BUILD upon them. Look at how Peter dealt with Cornelius. It is line upon line, and precept upon precept. Build upon a foundation that is already laid, if someone is a believer, and hasn’t yet experienced the power. I believe the results of birthing a true born again overcoming Christian into the kingdom of Christ would be much greater if this were the case.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

This has always been my approach to people.

Now, when they want to get testy and argumentative, well... ;)

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

well... what? :heeheehee

I'm glad to know you approach people in this way too, which is building upon their experiences with God, and encouraging them to seek a greater experience with the Lord.

I've had much greater results with getting people to see the need of the "upper room experience" when shared in this light, rather than in essence telling them "you're going to hell"... etc. etc.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Great post. Exactly the conclusions I've been coming to as I reevaluate everything I ever learned being raised in the UPC.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Great Post, Kept,
And very well said.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Im with Esaias on this. I never approach someone with "your going to Hell". It may seem like it on this Forum tho because many times Im having to react to what Evangelical teachers are promoting. So its not my general approach with someone I first meet who claims they are saved to tell them they are lost.

Nonetheless we should not IMO rule out using the teaching of eternal punishment if people don't respond well. Its also part of the message of Christ.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

If someone is really hungry for the Lord, and really intends to be a follower of the Lord, no doubt hearing the truth of "there is more" would be enough to provoke them to study it out for themselves. If they refuse to see it, most likely even hellfire damnation talk wouldn't even reach them. IMO.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

RIGHT, Michael, I don't believe I've ever told anyone that they were going to hell. They are not dead yet, and we don't know their future.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Yes, Kept, that is the Truth.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

One can surmise, editorialize and theorize all day long about the Apostles and one can claim they're Apostolic, but the ultimate question is concerning the signs, wonders and power that accompanied the apostles.

Sadly, the folks who claim to be Apostolic have no more signs, wonders and power following them than those who they view as non-Apostolic. 'Apostolics' are just as sick and healthy, broke and prosperous, sad and happy as non-'apostolics'. Other than outward appearance, there's little difference between those who claim to have the truth and those who do not follow the 'apostolic' message.

What difference does baptism make, for example. Line up 100 people and you'll find generally the same life issues in those 100 be they 'apostolic' or Baptist or Mormon, doesn't matter how they're baptized. There will be very little difference in their life experiences. Everybody gets sick, some get well, some have more financial problems than the others, some have relatively successful lives, others struggle.

The 'apostolics' claim to have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as compared to non-'apostolics'. The truth is, the 'apostolics' are no different than the non-'apostolics' and the 'apostolics' do not produce anything resembling the power and authority of the real Apostolics of the 1st century. The 'apostolic' movement of today is just another of thousands of Christian sects with their particular brand of Christianity which may differ theologically but differs little as far as living in the real world of today.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Sad commentary, no wonder you appear depressed.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Seekerman, you are forgetting something, when you are comparing the signs and wonders and blessings of the apostolic movement as compared to others. If you will look at the lives of the apostles, they were not blessed by worldly standards. If you read Paul's description of his life, he was beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, hungry, cold.... etc. Doesn't sound like the kind of "blessings" that we look for here in the good ole USA. In fact, if someone is that down and out, folks are likely to wonder if there is "sin" in their life. God's blessings most times include things that don't feel good to our flesh.

So, your comparison above falls far short of the way things actually should be in the kingdom of God. Blessings, signs, wonders, or lack thereof, are not an accurate measuring stick, not at all.

The measuring stick held up by Christ is a far more accurate measuring stick of those who are part of God's kingdom. Read this verse, John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

LOL!!! Appear depressed??? LOL!

Brother, I'm enjoying life better than ever!

Depressed? LOL!!

Oh....and my life is generally no different than a oneness pentecostal's life or a Baptists life or a Mormons life. And most likely neither is yours.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Again sad commentary of your life.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

It's sad because I have a relatively good life?

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

No, because you compare your life to a mormon's life.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Mormons live good lives.....and bad lives....just like oneness pentecostals.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

See..........

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Actually I do. Do you? :)

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

I think the point of Seekerman's post is why are pentecostals not performing notable miracles (ref: Book of Acts) like the early church?
For instance, when the crippled guy in Acts 3 was healed, it caused thousands to believe the gospel.

If authentic notable miracles are being performed (like the lame walking, the dead being raised back to life) that even the media cannot deny, unbelievers will be believing in droves.

But since pentecostals are not being reported to be performing miracles like was recorded in Acts, they are no different than the Baptists who says God no longer performs miracles, at least notable miracles.

My take from his post.

Seeker, how'd I do? :thumbsup

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Pretty good summary. :)

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Hello all and this is my first post after reading many many threads for a few months now.

I love the original post by Kept. I too, have been struggling with what is truth since leaving a OP church where I was raised. I don't want to get into scriptural debate as much of what i've come to believe isn't exactly popular on this forum. However, i do want to share in the "two salvational experiences" i've had.
1. Being raised in a OP church that started out UPC and later transitioned into a PAW church, I was baptized in Jesus' Name when I was 9. I later received the gift of the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues at a camp meeting. To this day, I still speak in tongues and cannot deny that experience (whether power to do more or as the external sign, i'll let y'all judge me). I knew that I was saved because I followed the core verses and was faithful in service and in giving. However, there came a time when I began to look around at how the church was failing and how judgemental we (I) had become towards everyone who wasn't a "3-stepper" (a new term i've picked up on AFF). Through much prayer, fasting, and study, i made the difficult choice to leave a church where I was the asst. Pastor and music minister. Doctrine WAS NOT an issue when I left. Although, looking back, i can see how the Lord was leading me into something more.

2. My second experience is when I began openening up to those i'd previously shunned out of fear. I began focusing more on what Jesus/God accomplished on the cross and less on what I did to recieve salvation. At some point, I realized the love he had for me and really and fully understood what was done. I had come to fully understand Grace and Mercy in a way I NEVER understood before.

I said all that to say this. I trusted too much in what I could do when I was OP (works based, legalist, whatever). I don't remember ever hearing much talk of mercy and grace, and was certainly never taught about Justification by faith. Ironically enough, I had a revelation of justification by faith a few months before I left and taught a bible study on it. I feel that even though some will say I was saved earlier in life, i also feel that i was re-reborn once i understood the finished work of the cross and his love for us.

There is nothing i can do to earn it, otherwise it's not, by definition, Grace. Thanks for the message, KeptByTheWord.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Welcome to the AFF this place is quite the zoo but at the core is a group of people that if I needed prayer would ask them to ring the throne room of heaven in behalf. :thumbsup

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Thank you for sharing your journey with us, and I personally would like to welcome you to AFF, even though it gets a little crazy around here at times. Feel free to chime and share your thoughts with us! :highfive

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Yep, that's the path, a heart after God, to know Him as He really is, and He is "showing up" in your understanding. Keep walking!!!

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

seekerman, most of your commentary is illogical.


The signs, wonders and power is orchestrated and administered by God. No human causes anything supernatural to happen. To question a perceived lack in these things has nothing to do with us. It is a question of the sovereignty of God to do as He pleases in the world at His own discretion.

You cannot prove this assertion. First, there is no systematic way of even quantifying the numbers involved, secondly, no matter how well informed we think we are, there are close to 2 billion people claiming adherence to Christ, with those numbers changing daily. No one but God Himself can keep track of the signs, wonders, and miracles being performed by Him in all of Christendom.

This has nothing to do with anything. Suffering verses non-suffering isn't a sign of anything. It has no bearing on anyone's relationship to God, or of God's relationship to humanity.

This has nothing to do with baptism. This is merely what human life is and entails. You could take 100 muslims who deny Jesus is the Son of God and find the same life issues among them. So what? Some are wealthy, some are poor, some are whatever. Being muslim has no bearing.

The Apostolics that you mean here are vastly different in doctrine.

Again, an unprovable assertion. There are approximately 30 MILLION Oneness Pentecostals/Apostolic in the world today. You can speak for so many?

Over the last year, I've heard, from just a small sample, amazing testimonies of signs, wonders, and miracles, up to and including: people being raised from the dead (with evidence).

You know, the Book of Acts doesn't have thousands of miracles recorded in it, unless you count the conversion of thousands as being not separate. Otherwise, the notable signs and wonders were not a regular occurrence that happened dozens of times a day, so what we do hear of and/or have seen today is pretty much at least on pace with the 1st century, if not more so.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

Welcome to the forum even though we dont always agree it is still a good place to come too and get some other perspectives even if you leave disagreeing.

Re: Two Salvational Experiences
 

If miracles happened all the time, they wouldn't be miracles, they'd be commonles.