What kind of pastor is this?
 

Just became aware of a situation today in my immediate family concerning a former pastor of mine. Although he was my pastor for 21 years, and I've long since gone, he continues to pastor some of my family members.

The family member of mine with which this drama has unfolded has had a courtship relationship with a man in another church for three years. They live about 1500 miles or so apart, and have seen each other a few times a year for the last three years, and it was known to each of their pastors that their intention was marriage at some point.

Just this week, my family member went to church for a regular service, and without warning became the topic for the service, and found out over the pulpit, that she was NOT to marry this man. After three years of being courted by this man, with apparent blessing on the part of both pastors, the relationship had continued.

Now, out of the blue, in just an ordinary service, she was told in front of the entire congregation the decision of the pastor to not allow the marriage.

Now, here's the kicker. Do you want to know WHY she is not allowed to marry this man?

He's black. She's white.

That's the reason. It took this pastor three years, waiting until the wedding plans were in the making, before simply announcing his decision to the church, over the pulpit, without any knowledge of hers beforehand.

Further... and that's not all folks. Hold onto your seat belts for this one.

IF she decides to go ahead and marry the man (as the man's pastor has given his full blessing on the wedding, and has said he will marry them, even if her pastor won't) she will be ex-communicated from the church, and ANYONE who attends the wedding will also be ex-communicated from the church.

Now, this is a family that has literally fallen all over themselves for the last 40 years or so to follow this pastor, now to face being ex-communicated from the church that they have been faithful members of, simply because their daughter has fallen in love with a godly, wonderful young black man, and wants to marry him.

This is an Apostolic, Pentecostal, AMF-fellowship associated pastor who has done this. And let me add this... this is NOT the first time he has done such a thing.

What say ye?

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

:( Very sad. But, it could be the best thing to ever happen to her, it could show her the way out.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

She should pray about if right man just like with anyone and if thinks he is she should marry him.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

As Spock would say IF he were human, she needed to tell this pastor, while he stood behind the pulpit to, quote, "Go to hell", unquote.
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4673312162711219&pid=1.7

Then walk out and not return.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

And furthermore, she already had "his approval" to marry him?

That right there is over half the problem.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Marry him and move to where husband is.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Like any good wife should :happydance

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

I hope you're prophetic!

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

She doesn't want to go to hell, she is scared to death. RW, I think from your former background you understand the mentality people in this kind of a situation have. She fears disobeying the pastor is rebellion, and as the sin of witchcraft.

I'm assuming she had his permission to "court", but apparently when wedding plans began to commence, he took it upon himself to publicly disgrace her in front of the congregation, without sharing any of that with her beforehand.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Time will tell what she does. Pray for her, if you will.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

I meant, she should have said that and walked out. That is what she should have done, but I understand the mindset of what keeps people in those situations, at least for a while.

I guess to me having to get permission to DATE is almost worse than having to getting permission to marry. It is micromanagement of a persons personal life in the worst way. We did have people in our old congregation who were "Pastor may I? Pastor may I?", so I know the type.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

I know there are fewer of these types of churches and pastors out there now then there was when we were in the org during the 80's, but apparently they haven't all gone extinct yet.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Sounds like witchcraft is at work. Using word curses to control saints is a form of witchcraft.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Leave the church, make the plans and send him an invitation. :)

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Sounds like your family has some issue of their own to be following a man for 40 years that has this pattern....

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Hard to break free especially if a person had been programmed it's rebellion and bad things will happen if you leave.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Seems there is more to this story.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Will be praying for her. My opinion...obey her pastor. It may be that God has some better thing for her just around the corner.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

If what is posted is true then that is some wrong advise.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Maybe pastor is getting maligned? I do know these type things happen though.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Wasn't giving advice...not informed enough on both sides of it for that. As stated, just my opinion. Believe the OP asked "What think ye?"

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Me too!

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

This man has controlled with fear, lies and intimidation as long as he has been pastoring. This is the only pastor she has ever had. She has not known anything else. Unless you've been in a situation where a pastor exerted control like this man has, you wouldn't understand, and I can see why some would say... just follow that man, because you don't know the whole story.

Most of my family has left, but there are just a few left, which means that there is a part of me still there. Because situations like this pop up and you have to deal with it.

I praise the Lord for the fact that I have been able to forgive for the things that have taken place. I could strew a lot of ugly garbage here about many, many, many situations that have taken place over the years, but I won't, because, the Lord taught me years ago when I wanted to take things into my own hands that "vengeance is mine". For whatever reason, the Lord allows this to continue, and doesn't stop it. I don't know why. It's gone on for a LONG time, but, I have found peace in my heart, and I don't question the Lord for His reasoning on not putting a stop to it.

And I pray for the pastor in question and ask the Lord to bring his heart to a place of repentance and understanding. I don't wish hell on anyone (although if my flesh had its way, it surely would wish hellfire and brimstone on this man for the pain he has caused), but then the Spirit of Christ within me rises up, and pities the man who feels he has to live this way, and cause so much harm.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

So is your daughter mortified because of the embarrassment of the situation or is she actually NOT going to marry this man now because her "permission to do so" has been revoked?

If it is the latter, there just isn't much one can do for then. At least not until another situation comes along which is even worse that will knock some sense (hopefully) into more members of that congregation.

By the way, how big is this particular church group?

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

how sad. does she need his permission to burp as well?

It is so hard when the pastor rules by force and intimidation like this. It takes a very strong person to walk away. But before they can walk away they have to understand the control that this man has taken over her and understand how wrong it is. I'm praying that God will open her eyes to this fact and then free her from the bondage she has been living in.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Sounds like a Democrat...They are all about CONTROL.

Me personally? I'd leave that church and find another. But you'll probably find most of the members are afraid to leave. They believe they will lose their souls.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Not her daughter, RW....other family member.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

See? That is my point. I believe pastoral relationships like that are not only unbiblical but unhealthy.

I know people and a church that is like that. It took YEARS for some of his members to finally wake up and leave but others chose to just not go to church anymore at all rather than go to another church for fear of going to hell..ironic eh?

Seriously I have friends that are former members. He has told some before that they were better off backsliding than going to the Apostolic church just in the other city and that they might as well pitch their tents in Sodom.

Too this day former members are STILL affected by this strict control and manipulation. It's a long long process of healing to get over that.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Very sad. The entire discussion should be about the danger in "submitting" to this type of freakish control. Very dangerous, unhealthy, and unbiblical.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Control freaks are often perfectionists[3] defending themselves against their own inner vulnerabilities in the belief that if they are not in total control they risk exposing themselves once more to childhood angst.[4] Such persons manipulate and pressure others to change so as to avoid having to change themselves,[5] and use power over others to escape an inner emptiness.[6] When a control freak's pattern is broken, “the Controller is left with a terrible feeling of powerlessness … But feeling their pain and fear brings them back to themselves”.[7]

Control freaks appear to have some similarities to codependents, in the sense that the latters' fear of abandonment leads to attempts to control those they are dependent on.[8] Recovery for them entails recognising that being a control freak helped paradoxically preserve codependency itself.[9]

In terms of personality-type theory, control freaks are very much the Type A personality, driven by the need to dominate and control.[10] An obsessive need to control others is also associated with antisocial personality disorder.[11]
Wikipedia

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

What are some of the signs a pastor is a control freak?

First, control freaks use guilt. My wife and I recently visited a church where the music leader gave a talk before the offering. He told the people how much he loved the church but then chided them for not being as committed as he was, exclaiming, “Shame on you!” Translation: there’s something wrong with you if you’re not as committed as I am.
Then the pastor told us that he’s tired of reading how millions of people are leaving local churches, saying that it made him mad! Translation: if you ever leave this church, I’m going to get really ticked off at you.
While guilting works with a small segment of the Christian population, it rarely works with most people. When the Spirit of God convicts us – especially through God’s Word – we feel true guilt. But when someone is trying to push their personal preferences onto us, most of us see through it.

Leaders – including pastors – must appeal to higher instincts instead.

Second, control freaks use manipulation. I once saw a televangelist do some fundraising inside an auditorium. He told the congregation to stand up, so they all stood. He then said, “Listen to the man of God!” He told the men to take out their wallets and the women to open their purses – and to donate all their money when the offering plates came around. He punctuated his appeal by reiterating, “Listen to the man of God!” (I didn’t see him give anything.)

Thank God I was at home, because if I had been in that auditorium, I might have walked out.
I once ran across the difference between manipulation and motivation. When a leader manipulates people, he tries to get them to do what is in his best interests. When a leader motivates people, he tries to get them to do what is in their best interests.

So if a pastor encourages his congregation to donate money to the ministry to inflate his stats or so he can get a raise, he’s manipulating people. But if he encourages them to give to expand Christ’s kingdom or so they can grow spiritually, he’s motivating them.

Pastors need to monitor their emotions, language, and tone when they speak to make sure they’re engaged in motivation, not manipulation.

Third, control freaks are insensitive. They are so in tune with their own discomfort that they cannot sense when they are making others uncomfortable.
As a pastor, I ministered to various kinds of people. Some could barely walk or hear. Others felt rejected by almost everyone in the culture. Some had no job or money. Others kept doubting their salvation.
I tried to listen to each person who came to me with a struggle. I tried to understand how they were feeling and how I might be able to help them. Every caring shepherd does this.
But control freaks can’t be bothered. They don’t see people as individuals but as part of a congregation they need to whip into shape. Everyone needs to be going in the same direction at the same speed. If you can’t keep up, they’ll leave you behind.

Years ago, I saw the film Lawrence of Arabia starring Peter O’Toole. There’s a scene where Lawrence is riding all night with some warriors to attack the coastal city of Aqaba. When daylight comes, Lawrence notices that one of the horses lacks a rider. When Lawrence inquires about him, he’s told that the man fell off miles back and should be left to die.
But Lawrence can’t do that. He reverses field and rides back for hours until he finds the man immobilized on the hot ground. Lawrence places the man on his horse and rides back toward Aqaba. When he arrives with the man near dusk, Lawrence becomes the undisputed leader of the invading party.
He cared about every single person.

Control freaks don’t mind losing people along the way. In fact, they expect it. “If you can’t get with my program,” they reason, “then I don’t want you around here anyway.” They only care about those who can help them reach their goals. Everyone else is dispensible – especially those who require too much attention.
http://blog.restoringkingdombuilders...ontrol-freaks/

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

A Pastor is to LEAD the congregation not try to make them do what he wants. It is his job to tell them (according to the WORD) what to do but if they don't, it is not his responsibility to make them. I would not sit under a control Pastor. He is supposed to love them and lead them and let God do the rest. I could not imagine being under a Pastor as this one is. That sounds like a Jim Jones leader.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and input. This man is definitely a control freak, and using the "name of the Lord" to validate everything he does, and wants. This family member is not my daughter, as RW asked. It is a close family member though.

He is certainly not a typical pastor, but one who has way overstepped his bounds, not just this time, but routinely as a way to control his congregation. The sad thing is that this has gone on for close to 50 years.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Prax, you hit the nail on the head here. Thank you for understanding.

Unless you know someone personally who has been in this type of abusive mentality, it is hard to believe it exists, but sadly, it is alive and well.

I was the first to leave out of the entire church group under this pastor's control. Several members of my family have followed. Several are still there.

I praise the Lord for the healing of my mind that took place many years ago, when I was able to forgive the things that took place. I believe it is the only way to leading a normal life.

However, when situations like this arise, I have to plead the blood to try to get my boiling blood to calm back down!

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Is there anyway to get a hint at who this pastor is so as to 'punk' them? (One can only imagine the stuff that I can come up with!) LOL

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

This pastor is definitely a man of the caliber of Jim Jones, as he has persuaded an entire group of people to do something he wanted them to do. Pray for him, and for the souls of those in his congregation. I know that only the Lord can intervene and change the heart of this man, before it is eternally too late.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Oh yes, I can only imagine how your mind works, lol... yet.... I will not expose sensitive details on a public forum...

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Truthseeker - you have spoken truth. Thanks.

Hometown Guy - easy to judge the situation based on the few details I have provided. Be thankful you don't have family members in this kind of a situation, pray for these people, if you would. Thanks.

Re: What kind of pastor is this?
 

Abiding Now, you have nothing to say?