An Apology
 

I want to apologize for posting on here. Most of you I don't know. I was posting with several on here back in the FCF days and it was a different tone and crowd. I have come back from time to time to lurk and post some. But in truth this really has become an ex-Pentecostal site not everyone I am not broad brushing but the most vocal are. I will be able to have discourse with CC1 on another medium. My spirit was grieved yesterday evening with myself posting on an issue. I know I will get some parting shots. I have come back from time to time thinking maybe it will be different but atlas I think the forum has changed forever. To those who understand what I am saying this is not personal with you.

Re: An Apology
 

I have enjoyed your banter and your wisdom, in what we disagree I consider minor because we agree on Christ.

Re: An Apology
 

Steve, don't leave. I don't know you, but it seems to me, that what I have read of what you write, is truth.

I know what you mean by your spirit being grieved, I experience that also, when I see the false doctrines on here. But you are needed to help those of us that know the TRUTH, to combat false doctrine.

Re: An Apology
 

I've not been around long but enough to grow disgusted with what I see here. There are 3-4 reasons that i have continued to particpate here (though minimally)...one of those reasons being Bro. Epley. I would love to have a true Apostolic forum to fellowship and share thoughts and ideas without being bombarded by bitter backsliders. If such a place exists...somebody please point me that direction. If one is created in the future...I would love to know about it. It is a sad fact, however, that there is little accountability in internet forums. Perhaps they have no real benefit to the Church except to promote strife and gossip. I dont know.

I have enjoyed reading your posts Brother Epley. It is men of God such as yourself that I want to pattern my life after. The Apostolic Movement is truly blessed with some wonderful people.

Re: An Apology
 

Look Steve, when I started the post, I did not mention any names, and left things very vague. YOU were the one who jumped in with details, asking questions. It could have stayed vague, but for whatever reason, you brought out the details that I was going to leave alone. Now, it is like letting Pandora out of the box, and you are wanting to leave now that some things have been exposed that are part of your past too. I didn't do that, you did. And your input is valuable.

Like some have stated, this place needs to continue to have a balance from the left to the right side of the issue.

Also, I don't believe you are anything like the pastor in the post in question. Just sayin... and I do value your input and thoughts here, even though we may not always agree.

Re: An Apology
 

For the record..If it matters, there is no harm in trying to help someone...They have to choose who to listen to...LAST ONE OUT...TURN OUT THE LIGHTS!

Re: An Apology
 

Some of us are mellow backsliders :largehalo

Re: An Apology
 

Helping someone is what this forum is all about.

just because there are some bitter ex-apostolics here does not mean that they do not need help.

If all the real Apostolics leave, then who is going to remind the people in this forum of their roots? Perhaps chance one of them will repent and return unto the Lord.

God does not forsake people until the very end of their lives, the thief on the cross was on his last hour on earth and yet even him on his last moment was able to find salvation.

So no I am not willing this forum with no one to preach the true message of salvation.

I have been kicked out of other forums for preaching the Acts 2:38 message, but at least I know that here that will not be a problem.

Re: An Apology
 

thats nice :thumbsup

Re: An Apology
 

Don't run away. I've seen you actually post some nice stuff!

Re: An Apology
 

I think the issue, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you interacting with those who believe differently than you. Again, I may be wrong, but you're seeming to say that you only want to dialog with those who agree with you, who will not challenge you, who will recognize your position. The very thing I value on the forum is the freedom to challenge, to question, to discuss. I do understand that the sub-sect of oneness pentecostalism you're a part of very much discourages questioning the pastor, or preacher, in fact it's really not allowed. I think that's the environment you're most comfortable in so I'm really not surprised you're leaving.

Oh...and you did evade answering my last question to you.

But anyway, hope you find a place you'll be happy.

Re: An Apology
 

You are [wrong]. I've been here (and on the NFCF and FCF) for years and being afraid of a disagreement has never been Bro. Epley's style. Nor is he afraid of questions or direct answers. I've seen more dancing around a direct answer by liberal posters than I ever have from SE.

I'm sorry to see Bro. Epley go, and I agree with him that this forum can't ever be what it used to be. I think it's mostly due to changes in social media--conversations have migrated to easier platforms like Facebook, for one thing. I also know that we lost a lot of conservative people around the same time as the WPF debacle, and most of them never came back. It caused an imbalance on the forum that hasn't ever been corrected.

Re: An Apology
 

Some may think I am too liberal to be on AFF now, but I am too conservative to join Facebook. ;) I tried joining some other forums that were more liberal but they were cussing and throwing around sexual comments and I am too conservative for that. I just hang where I'm comfortable. ;)

Re: An Apology
 

consider yourself corrected. :thumbsup

Brother Epley has no problem interacting with people who disagree with him. I have in fact engaged brother Epley in formal debate on a doctrinal topic which he holds dear to his heart. He was respectful, concise, and stuck to the issue, unlike quite a few other 'more liberated' posters who have been here.



*I'm* still waiting on you to answer several of my other questions I asked you, which you have evaded answering for some time now -

Such as -

1. Is Jesus good, or not?

2. Why did the apostle Thomas call Jesus his 'God'?

:dogpat

Re: An Apology
 

I will miss you pastor.:yourock

Re: An Apology
 

I hope the good elder just takes a break.
He is much needed to speak out on this forum.
Quite a few misguided souls and backslidden hearts
come here from time to time.
I love the Apostolic message and thank God for
true Pastors who still preach it, nothing wavering.
God bless you Bro Epley. You are one of my most
favorite posters on this forum.

Re: An Apology
 

Bro. Epley though we would not agree some doctrinal issues i always enjoyed your conservative views they will be missed.

Re: An Apology
 

Forums like that are tightly CONTROLLED. I have known people that tried to join and because they did not fit in with the ruling majority's idea of what Apostolic is, they were banned.

So they are not necessarily places for Apostolics to share ideas unless those in control agree with your ideas

Re: An Apology
 

Well, that's a kick in the head. You've just ruined my day!!

Oh at times he's surely concise. He has no problem proclaiming Trinitarians to hell.

1. The followup question, did God become sin?

2. The companion question is why did Jesus call someone else God?

You see, there's much much more to the discussion than a couple of questions. Some can stand discussion and disagreement with their position, others can't.

Some can stand the heat, some gotta stay out of the kitchen. Kinda reminds me of this scripture.....

Jer 12:5 "If you have run with footmen and they have tired you out, Then how can you compete with horses? If you fall down in a land of peace, How will you do in the thicket of the Jordan?

Re: An Apology
 

And he still did not answer Essias's questions

Re: An Apology
 

Is a discussion so wrong? Tell you what, I'll answer anyone's questions if they answer mine. Deal? :thumbsup

Re: An Apology
 

Oh, and here's brother epley's non-answer to my question.

Re: An Apology
 

Discussions often include questions and answers..

You didn't answer Essias's questions. You will never answer a question because you will go back to some controversy where you will insist So and So never answered a question back in 2011.

Second my experience with you is when someone answers a question and offers an explanation in addition to the answer, you refuse to acknowledge it and assert they never answered

Re: An Apology
 

Seeker that question has nothing to do with doctrine. Questions like those are done by people like you so you can have some personal information on someone and then pester them on it.

Epley's personal life or associations are none of your business. If he wants to share he can but it's not your business.

Re: An Apology
 

BTW it looks like he answered the question to me

Bro. Epley, we haven't always agreed on everything, but I still hold a large amount of respect for you. I wish you would stay, but if you feel like you need to go, you will be missed.

Re: An Apology
 

There are answers and then there are responses. There's a big difference in the two.

In discussing various theological views with oneness pentecostals I find there's a few scriptures they use, ignoring the many which conflict with their doctrines. I welcome dialog, but that dialog must include the passages which may not be palatable to them. An example is the scripture where Thomas exclaims "my Lord and my God" which, in their opinion, proves that Jesus is God. There's much more to the scripture than just a snippet though.

First, was that literally God which Thomas was literally feeling? (Now's switcheroo time I suspect). Did God have scars in His hands and feet, a scarred God? Jesus shortly before identified His God as Thomas' God. We must take all the issues if we are to discuss the passage.

No, taking one scripture, sometimes even a snippet, and asking a question doesn't do justice. In this case, the question concerning Thomas calling Jesus "God" has broad ramifications.

Do we really want to discuss Thomas' statement or do we just want to take the statement and confine it in the cloak of simple-mindedness?

Re: An Apology
 

It has everything to do with the doctrine that some teach which results in men, women, infants and children suffering and dying for lack of medical care because of doctrinal reasons.

Re: An Apology
 

Look again...


Now, please point out where epley addressed the issue of those in his fellowship which allow INFANTS and CHILDREN to suffer and die for lack of medical attention. Epley answered about those who trusted God for themselves completely evading the issue of those who listen to theology which results in one's infants and children to suffer and die.

Re: An Apology
 

I remember as a young man, my son was very ill, and I decided I was gonna step out on faith, and trust God to heal him. Took him to the altar, had him prayed for, and waited.... He was getting worse. Finally, my pastor came by, and offered these very wise words:

Brother, if you want to test your faith in God's healing, perhaps you should wait until you are sick...in the mean time, take your son to the doctor.

Re: An Apology
 

My brother, that sounds like a very wise pastor. :thumbsup

Re: An Apology
 

Why would you trust God for you son's healing and not take him to the doctor? What teaching did you head that convinced you to allow your son to suffer instead of taking him to the doctor?

well, didn't Jesus say that his followers would heal people?

Re: An Apology
 

As I said, I was a young man. Back then, taking my son to the doctor was tantamount to not trusting that God was going to miraculously heal him. Do you really not get that?

Re: An Apology
 

Yes, but when a child doesn't get his healing, why allow him to suffer....and sometimes die?

What theology would teach such a thing?

Re: An Apology
 

I'm simply asking, why would you...or anyone for that matter....think it's pleasing to God to allow one's child to suffer? What kind of preaching were you sitting under that would convince you of such a thing?

Did the preacher preach that anyone who sought medical help for sickness was sinning? That God wasn't pleased with that? Were those folks 'apostolic'?

Re: An Apology
 

For the third time, I was a young man. Why did I think that taking my son to a doctor was the equivalent of not trusting God? Probably because I had just taken him to the altar, had the elders pray for his healing, and was left now to trust that God would heal him. To me, back then, taking him to the doctor was like telling God, that I didn't believe He was healing my son...or not healing him fast enough. Whom taught me this? Nobody...I was brand new in the faith.

The fact that my pastor intervened, and told me to take my son to a doctor, should answer your ridiculous question: "Did the preacher preach that anyone who sought medical help for sickness was sinning".

And yes, those folks were apostolic...and he wasn't just a preacher, but a pastor...my pastor.

Re: An Apology
 

Seekerman, you are confusing respecting one's religious convictions--even when they are disagreeable or even repugnant--with agreeing with them or endorsing them.

The reason it is difficult to hate someone or treat them badly because of religious beliefs is because their belief is intertwined with sincere love for God. People who are willing to put their own lives or their children's lives in danger in order to express their faith are people who believe what they believe to the core. It may be misguided, but it can't be ripped out of them.

No, I do NOT believe that God is pleased with a person allowing their child to suffer, but at the same time, I understand their sincere ignorance. Not in the sense that I am commiserating, but from the angle of knowing that people do bad and stupid things for noble reasons. My own father nearly let me die out of the same misguided notion when I was 2. My grandfather finally overrode him and took me to the hospital. Ironically, two days later, our pastor came in and prayed for me and I was completely healed and released from the hospital that same afternoon. My Dad never spoke against doctors again--and I can assure you that he loved me very much. He did, however, feel that he was put in the position of having to choose between faith in God and his child, and his convictions made him make a choice that I feel was sincerely ignorant. He wasn't bad or evil; he was just a fallible human being.

What is the point of haranguing people for things they feel so deeply in their heart, they can never in good conscience make a different choice? Their ignorance can make you sad, or even angry, but I think it's still easy to see where it comes from.

Re: An Apology
 

:yourock

Re: An Apology
 

The reason I'm asking is that you don't see this kind of behavior in most Christian sects. There is something in the message, in the 'apostolic' theology which lends itself to people doing this. I was just curious why you came to the conclusion that God would be pleased with allowing your child to suffer if your pastor didn't teach that particular docrine.

I was soundly criticized by some on here for bringing up the practice of some 'apostolics' to do this very thing, even to the point of the death of their child. What is being preached that would convince a person that such behavior is pleasing to God? Something is in that culture, in that theology, which would lend itself to practicing theology which had tragic consequences.

This is what epley didn't want to discuss, to answer.