Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I was inspired to post this after reading Epley's latest thread about regretting even posting here anymore, because there are no more Apostolics on the board.

While I currently attend a UPCI church, my inclination is certain against the traditional "Apostolic" church (dress standards are just impossible to defend, IMO...emphasis on tongues is also something I take issue with, though I'm not convinced they're not indicative of the initial evidence...though I'm still prayerfully studying the topic).

The poll has several options to try to take as granular look as possible from the group here. I would have preferred 8 options, but unfortunately the limit is 7, so hopefully that will work.

By "Jesus Name" or "Titles" I mean when you do baptize (regardless of what you believe it's significance is related to salvation/the Christian walk), do you do so in Jesus Name or Titles.

I know these options may still not be granular enough for some, but hopefully there are enough options that you all feel comfortable selecting the one that you most closely identify with. Feel free to discuss if you have variance from the one you selected.

(BTW, for dress standards, I focused on the "holy trinity" for women, because those seem to be the most universal among "Apostolics". More stringent standards for men (facial hair, shorts/no shorts) seem to be more variable. Remember, this is just a request to pick the one that you feel most closely aligns with what you personally believe, even if it's not 100%.)

Also, by "3-Stepper" I mean you believe in saved Christians needing to experience Repentance, Water Baptism, and the Infilling of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues. By "1-Stepper" I mean you believe that saved Christians Repent/Believe in Jesus, but are not "required" to be Baptized or have a tongues-experience with the Holy Ghost infilling.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Also, another BTW, I selected Jesus Name 3-Stepper & No Standards, because that's what I most closely align with. Even though I'm probably somewhere in between that and a Jesus Name 1 Stepper that believes the Holy Ghost infilling w/ speaking in tongues is for all believers. I believe strongly in the command to be baptized in Jesus' name and if you don't do so, you must not really believe in Jesus. I also believe that the Holy Ghost is a promise to all believers, and without the Spirit of Christ, we are none of his...and that the book of Acts strongly indicates tongues as the initial evidence of having received the Spirit. But I'm not convinced that a believer who is obedient to the best of their knowledge is "lost" even if they haven't received the Holy Ghost yet. But I don't think that it's an experience that should be omitted from our preaching/teaching, and that it is a wonderful gift promised to every believer to live an overcoming life on this earth.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I also hold to the standard of dress.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Just another in a long list of whiners who could not get their way and force out those that don't agree with them on everything...

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I am a true Apostolic Christian. Everything starts with faith and continues by faith. If ANYONE wants to be a disciple to Jesus they MUST forsake all others and all else in comparison.

1. Repent.
2. Be baptized into the name of Yeshua/Jesus.
3. Receive the Holy Spirit....followed by tongues or perhaps prophecy.

Laying on of hands to receive the Spirit. Gifts of the Spirit are real. Post trib rapture. There is no "immortal soul". At death we "sleep" until awakened by Christ at the FIRST RESURRECTION.

The wicked will not gain immortality, eternal life in the lake of fire. They will perish in its flames when God wills.

Christ will rule this world for 1000 years, his saints will be his kings and priests converting the Earth to its original state as the garden of Eden.

All saints are to be like Christ. Only they who do the will of God should have assurance they will be FINALLY SAVED.

God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus. Everyone will be judged with perfect justice.

My personal preference is that men wear beards and women wear long dresses or skirts. Apostolic sisters cover their heads with a veil if they participate in body ministry. I reject that a woman trimming her hair is a sin.

Churches of sufficient size to warrant it have plurality of elders. The Elders of the Church should work with their hands and not expect tithes from the saints. Saints are to give to the work of God and to the poor as they are able.

It is our responsibility to teach the full gospel including all the commandments of Christ. This is the great commission.

How could I have forgot to include this most magnificent truth?

JESUS IS BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON!

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Thank you, Real, for Posting this. I was wondering the same thing. I am Apostolic thru and thru, except, I don't believe in man-made laws. Nor a dress code. I believe in modest dressing, but let each decide what is modest. If a Pentecostal women doesn't have enough sense, or desire to serve God in Holiness, o dress modestly, how can she decide in everyday things that come up? Is someone going to hold her hand and tell her everything that she should do?

I believe pretty much as you and Michael.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I think myself to be Apostolic.
I believe in
Repentence
Baptism in Jesus' Name
and infilling of the Holyghost
with evidence of speaking in
other tongues.
I strive to live a modest and
holiness lifestyle.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Bro Epley? A whiner? LOL!

Will you be happy when the forum is finally all NON Apostolic?

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

We non UPC also hold to a standard of dress, you do not see any of our members attending church naked do you?

actually I am beginning to find offensive the charge that we do not have a standard of dress, just because we do not follow the UPCI standard of dress does not mean that we have none.

so yes we do have a standard of dress, it just does not happen to be yours.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

There was once an Apostolic Pentecostal Forum called The Good News Café. It was early on a pretty good forum. In time under new ownership it became very censored. Eventually it collapsed.

The reason I still like this Forum is because there is freedom to speak. I do agree that those who are trying to destroy faith in the Bible should be banned.

My hope is that admin wont get tired of the whole thing and close it down.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Id be happy if they stopped whining and stay.. Clearly I was lamenting them leaving not being glad they whine and leave

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

You know where the post reporting tool is.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

i'm new and i'm sure i've already caused heartburn in some but this is where I was and where I'm now.

Was: oneness, 3 stepper, with tongues as initial evidence. No 'strict' dress code.

Now:
Godhead - I see arguments for both sides. I don't believe that the trinity is heresy, but a poor explanation of the roles or manifestations of one God. Oneness has it's issues too.

I believe in justification by faith and salvation at true faith in Jesus' work on the cross and that He is to be Lord over ones life. Salvation at faith and true repentance.

I believe in Jesus' name baptism although I don't see it as a saving act. I think people with a true desire to seek God's will in their life will be baptized in His name.

I speak in tongues, but I don't see scriptural arguments for an "initial evidence" doctrine. I believe tongues has its place and all should seek a deep personal relationship with Jesus that will lead to greater things such as tongues, prophesying, healing, wisdom, IE the gifts. Before everyone jumps on this, I do believe in a difference between self edifying, spirit-intercessory tongues and the gift of tongues and subsequent interpretation for the body (church) of Christ.

I believe one should strive for holiness, but not rely solely on the Pastor or organization for their guidelines.

I'm not anti-oneness, anti-Jesus name baptism, or anti-tongues. But i do believe many (not all) OPs have judged way too many people to hell while relying on their actions or self-righteousness. I've heard some of the meanest things come out of people who self edify by speaking in tongues every chance they get. I Corinthians 13:1 anybody?

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

:thumbsup

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Ooh, great, another "who's the best" thread.

Religious pride is so ugly.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Hmmm...the intention of this thread was certainly not "who's the best", nor do I think that it's turned out that way w/ the comments. It's certainly satisfied my curiosity and given some more clarity (for me) about a few members' beliefs, though.

Also, it's interesting to point out that per the numbers so far, the indications are that the "Apostolics" are most certainly in the minority on this forum now. BUT the other indication is that no ONE belief is in the "majority" here! (Which I think we all knew, but if you'll notice by post count, I haven't been around for a while, so...some of it's enlightening to folks who haven't stuck around on the forum through all its incarnations.)

But your attitude is charming! :)

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I'm totally with you on this. I believe in the end, not a single one of us can fully comprehend the essence of who God is and are trying to put human words and concepts together to try to make sense of him.

That's one reason I didn't put belief in the trinity as part of the poll...many times Trinidadian explanations of the godhead end up being semantical, and in many ways trying to say the same thing as Oneness people do. But the baptism in Jesus name part is an interesting indicator of how one approaches salvation, particularly as it relates to an attempt to emulate what is written about the both of the church in the book of Acts.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I believe in:
**the Oneness of God
**repentance, baptism in Jesus' name, Holy Ghost/tongues
**modesty, and separation from worldliness

but I didn't find a poll option that I was comfortable with.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I chose option #1

"Jesus Name, 3 Stepper, and Dress Standards"

I admit, however, that I didn't like the terminology, but for the sake of voting, the idea presented behind the option is accurate enough.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Epley doesn't hold a monopoly on apostolic. Epley gets more mileage from his Trinnies are list thread than anything else.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

The first option doesn't hold true for you? You don't believe modesty includes women wearing skirts, because that's women's apparel? Or not cutting their hair? Or generally not wearing make up?

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I also am in no way intending to say the people who don't believe in "the holy trinity" of dress standards have no standards! But I'm using that ubiquitous terminology that we all know and understand what is meant when the UPCI and other Apostolic churches talk about standards.

Since pursuing a more personal faith that has diverged from the UPCI party line, my family and I have developed our own personal convictions related to dress and behavior. But they are OUR convictions.

Also, I understand that those who follow, or who's wives follow the three standards I listed may not perceive them as a check list the way it appears on this poll. And there are other modesty standards you follow that aren't included. The poll is just meant as a barometer.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Epley's dad was just as apostolic.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Funny, I thought he said his Dad was a Charismatic.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

What is a charismatic anyway and how do they differ from the AGs?

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

It is a matter of semantics. Not to much difference in beliefs. Maybe in the initial evidence doctrine. The Charismatic movement really took of with the Jesus movement, kind of like with the "Calvary Chapel" and Chuck Smith.

In the AG the influx of the Charismatic movement forced them to get away from the Holiness standard of dress.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

lol - I just reread the previous page and saw this. Autocorrect.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Agreed. And Epley might not even feel that those who hold only to the "no pants, no cut hair, no make-up" option are "Apostolic" enough for his standards.

But none of us are strangers to the typical connotations of the word "Apostolic" among our ranks, and it generally means tongue-talking, Jesus name, "holiness lifestyle" (i.e. how I dress, what I don't watch...or what type of screen I use to watch things...no big theater screen or TV, but we sure do watch a lot of YouTube...okay, so that's a little tongue-in-cheek and not the point of this thread...but I couldn't help myself).

That also brings me to the point that the word "holiness" has been co-opted to primarily refer to "dress code."

And while there are many threads around that argue the truth behind those assertions (that Apostolics only believe a certain thing or that how you dress is how you measure holiness)...we all know what they "generally" are intended to mean when they're brought up.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I thought 'apostolic' meant 'of or relating to the apostles'?

Like - what the apostles taught, what the apostles practiced?

If it's not what the apostles taught or practiced, it is not apostolic. Period.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

That eliminates the clothesline prophets.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Well, it eliminates quite a lot of what passes for Christianity nowadays.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

The Biblical term is deliberately vague.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Is it really? Or have we loaded it down with tons of man-made additions, leaving off the essential and original meaning?

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I went with 3 stepper/standards because that is closest, but im really somewhere between that and 3 stepper/no standards....

i never wear shorts, my wife does not own a pair of pants or cut her hair. she doesnt wear makeup, but does wear a wedding ring. I dont wear any jewlery of any kind.

but we dont go to a church that majors on these things, nor do I determine someones salvation based on my particular standards.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

One may have gone, but another just arrived. :thumbsup

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

the poll needs to include non-believers because we have some of those.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I believe in the authority of the name of Jesus, and the 3-stepper... although, I would like to clarify that more. I believe repentance, faith, and water baptism to be the necessary three steps. The infilling of the spirit of Jesus is something all believers should experience. I do believe too many are still at Calvary, and haven't moved on into the realm of the spirit awaiting them. It is not my place to say whether they are saved or not, but I would look at it this way, why would you NOT want to experience the power, and all that the Lord has for you? You can see a previous post of mine, "Two Salvational Experiences" to see further how I feel about the issue. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=45078

And I don't believe dress standards are part of salvation, although... I do believe that a sincere child of the Lord would want to dress and act in such a way to be pleasing to the Lord, and would follow the convictions that the Lord has given to them. And this would include not imposing those convictions on others, but applying them to their own lives... essentially working out your own salvation.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

I completely agree, but was limited to seven options. I might do a follow up to try to capture that.

Re: Are All the Apostolics Gone from AFF?
 

Well, I've been away from the forum for a while. Today I checked in and looks like it's the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Each of us has his/her own definition of "Apostolic." In the eyes of many of us we each think we are "Apostolic" and anyone who does not agree with us completely is somewhat less Apostolic.

What spiritual pride! What exclusiveness!

The Roman Catholic Church uses the term "Apostolic" in its name and so do some of the various eastern Orthodox Churches. The group/cult in Zion, Illinois called themselves "Apostolic" back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. When the Holy Spirit was poured out at 312 Azusa Street they used the term "Apostolic." Now we have a little group who want to exclude anyone who does not believe some of the narrow minded doctrines of some of the UPC, AMF, etc and say they are not "real Apostolics." Shame on you.

Apostolics are a lot more diverse than our own personal narrow-minded opinion.