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Esaias 11-20-2013 09:49 AM
Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
http://cnview.com/text_sermons/unbel..._in_assemb.htm

Please read the article and tell me your thoughts. The question is 'Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?'

Here's a few quotes from the article, but please read the whole thing.

Quote:
1 Cor 5:6-7 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

This is what Paul is talking about here.

1 Cor 5:1-2 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

The logic that the church has been using for decades is that, "We need to bring the unsaved in, to hear the Gospel." But in church is not where they are to hear the gospel. The Gospel needs to be taken to them.

It is alright to talk with the unsaved in your place of work or wherever you may come in contact with them, but they do not belong in an assembly of believers that meet together to worship God and exhort each other.

...

Until the lost are saved, they don't belong in the assembly! In the O.T. God's direction was absolutely dclear about keeping the profane out of God's presence. And they had the gatekeepers so that the unclean could not go in.

2 Chr 23:19 And he set the porters at the gates of the house of the LORD, that none which was unclean in any thing should enter in.

Preachers need to be "sent" to the lost, to bring (take) the gospel to them.

The Gospel must be taken to the lost, going to the highways and hedges to compel them to come, so that God's house may be filled. (Luke14:23) That means, going to where the lost are with God's WORD.

...

These modern church people always say, well, look at Jesus. He ate with publicans and sinners. And the Pharisees complained to Him, just like you complain to us.

But notice WHERE Jesus ministered to people. When he was eating with tax collectors and sinners, He has just asked Levi to follow Him. And He was in Levi's house. (Mark2: 14-15) When He spoke with the woman of Samaria it was necessary for Him to go to Samaria. (John 4:4) He sat in fishing boats to teach. (Matt13: 2) And He often went into the wilderness, where the crowds came to Him. (Mattt14: 13) When He called to Zaccheus, He said, "I'm coming to your house". (Luke19: 5)

JESUS WENT TO THE PEOPLE or THE PEOPLE CAME TO HIM, OUTSIDE OF THE TEMPLE.

But when it came to the temple, the place that represented God's Holy presence, you can notice that He drives the filth out. The merchants and money-changers and swindlers (Matt 21:12-13) because it was a "house of prayer".

Also, a typical argument is that since our bodies are the temple of the Lord (1Cor 6:19), the physical building (or location) no longer matters. And, to a certain extent, this is true. Jesus said:

Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Where Christians are gathered for worship, exhortation, study, prayer, and whether it's a living room, garage or barn or the fancy building with the sign out front--that gathering represents the Lord's presence. It is a special time of fellowship with the Lord that the unregenerate have no part in. When Paul writes to Timothy about the workings of the Church gatherings, he has this to say about prayer:

1 Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Now if the unregenerate are in the assembly imitating what they see, the hands they lift are not holy, are they?

chad87 11-20-2013 10:27 AM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
In my opinion(which changes all the time), in modern day society, this would seem to make it much harder to bring others to Christ. Most people aren't very interested in talking about God when they are grocery shopping, neither are they going to visit a stranger's house to talk about Jesus.

Everyone in America has heard of Jesus, but to come to an assembly where they can feel the presense of God, possibly see healings, and worship with others, makes a big difference.

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:7

mizpeh 11-20-2013 10:52 AM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Before I read the article...the assembly is technically the church. The church is the body of Christ...so unless someone is a believer and born again they cannot be part of the assembly. That said, an unbeliever can assemble with the assembly and not be part of the assembly.

now to read the article.

Timmy 11-20-2013 11:16 AM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 1288835)
Before I read the article...the assembly is technically the church. The church is the body of Christ...so unless someone is a believer and born again they cannot be part of the assembly. That said, an unbeliever can assemble with the assembly and not be part of the assembly.

now to read the article.
I haven't read it either, but it probably says we should be stoned. (Double entendre unintended. :heeheehee)

Aquila 11-20-2013 11:54 AM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
I believe that sinners should be welcome to most assemblies. Especially those aimed at reaching them. However, I also believe that some assemblies should be geared towards the saints in particular. Sinners wouldn't do well in these assemblies because much that would be discussed wouldn't apply to them... and might even be alien to them or over their heads.

Aquila 11-20-2013 11:55 AM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Also, it's my conviction that the Epistles give examples of how the early church was managed. I don't believe everything written to every church should be applied universally in a legalistic manner.

TGBTG 11-20-2013 11:59 AM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
First off, the problem Paul was addressing in 1 Cor 5 was believers commiting fornication.
And, he ended by admonishing them to:

1 Cor 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

The "wicked" man that was to be removed from the assembly was a believer (at least a professed believer)


Secondly,

1 Cor 14
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Pretty clear!

tv1a 11-20-2013 12:04 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Not all unbelievers are wicked. Wicked people are unbelievers. Get definitions straight be discoursing.

Esaias 11-20-2013 12:06 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288855)
First off, the problem Paul was addressing in 1 Cor 5 was believers commiting fornication.
And, he ended by admonishing them to:

1 Cor 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

The "wicked" man that was to be removed from the assembly was a believer (at least a professed believer)
Notice, though, that Paul speaks of the unbelievers as 'outside'. them that are 'outside'. The wicked one who claimed to be a believer was placed in their category, that is he was expelled and not allowed in unless he repented.

Jesus said if a brother will not hear the church, let him be as 'an heathen and publican', with the implication he is placed outside the assembly, is shunned, not admitted, except upon condition of sincere repentance. Again, this all indicates that unbelievers seem to be not generally admitted to the assembly.


Quote:
Secondly,

1 Cor 14
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Pretty clear!
Yes, there is clearly a declaration made that an unbeliever or 'unlearned' person may enter the assembly. But that's an *if* not a *when*. It may be that an unbeliever enters the assembly, but Paul's statement seems to indicate such would be the exception, not the rule. And like they say, 'the exception proves the rule'.

Not saying I am convinced either way, I am still trying to figure this one out, btw.

Esaias 11-20-2013 12:09 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a (Post 1288858)
Not all unbelievers are wicked. Wicked people are unbelievers. Get definitions straight be discoursing.
Are unbelievers in their sins? Are they still sinning? Are they sinners?

If so, then they are by definition 'wicked'. The wicked believer expelled in Corinthians was a believer who was sinning. Are sinners sinning? Do they sin?

Anyway, if the bible indicates the lost are 'saved' by Christians 'going forth' with the gospel, then why do we reverse that and establish a pattern where the lost 'come to church to hopefully get 'em saved'?

TGBTG 11-20-2013 12:20 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288860)
Anyway, if the bible indicates the lost are 'saved' by Christians 'going forth' with the gospel, then why do we reverse that and establish a pattern where the lost 'come to church to hopefully get 'em saved'?
As far as the pattern of "bringing the lost to church to get them saved", yeah, I agree the emphasis should be mainly going out to reach the lost. However, a lot of churches ("pastors"..cough cough) do not equip their saints to evangelize. It's mostly invite the lost to church. So I see what you're saying.

But the article you referenced is saying:

"Until the lost are saved, they don't belong in the assembly! In the O.T. God's direction was absolutely dclear about keeping the profane out of God's presence. And they had the gatekeepers so that the unclean could not go in."

That's the part that I think is wrong. That declaration does not allow for an unbeliever to enter the assembly (*if* or *when*) as noted by Paul in 1 Cor 14.

The article is saying unbelievers are unclean, so they should not be in the house of the Lord. Ofcourse, considering the house of the Lord are human beings, the logical conclusion of the author's argument is that believers hould not associate with unbelievers. However, the author refrains from making that statement, even though that's the logical conclusion of their argument.

Esaias 11-20-2013 01:04 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
In a house church setting, should unbelievers be admitted only to specific meetings designed for such purposes? Or should they be admitted to any and every meeting of the church?

I read a blog today where this very question was being discussed. One person made the comment: "I work with sinners, shop with sinners, go to baseball games with sinners, drive the streets with sinners, etc. I want to worship Christ with those sanctified by Him."

I mean, what is the purpose of assembling together? Is it to 'win the lost'? Or is it to strengthen and edify the believers, so they may go out and 'win the lost'?

If the latter, then it seems that 'church is for the believer and the lost need evangelism, not church meetings'.

???

Aquila 11-20-2013 01:05 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288855)
First off, the problem Paul was addressing in 1 Cor 5 was believers commiting fornication.
And, he ended by admonishing them to:

1 Cor 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

The "wicked" man that was to be removed from the assembly was a believer (at least a professed believer)


Secondly,

1 Cor 14
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Pretty clear!
:thumbsup

TGBTG 11-20-2013 01:10 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288878)
In a house church setting, should unbelievers be admitted only to specific meetings designed for such purposes? Or should they be admitted to any and every meeting of the church?

I read a blog today where this very question was being discussed. One person made the comment: "I work with sinners, shop with sinners, go to baseball games with sinners, drive the streets with sinners, etc. I want to worship Christ with those sanctified by Him."

I mean, what is the purpose of assembling together? Is it to 'win the lost'? Or is it to strengthen and edify the believers, so they may go out and 'win the lost'?

If the latter, then it seems that 'church is for the believer and the lost need evangelism, not church meetings'.
???
The church is for the believer, but the article you referenced is implying that unbelievers should not be allowed at all in the congregation (referencing the old testament).

The lost need evangelism does not preclude such a lost person from getting saved while attending a meeting of believers

Let's get practical: An unbeliever sees you and for whatever reason says, "hey, I want to go to church with you..." Are we then to say, no don't come to church until you have been saved?

I agree the meeting of believers is primarily for believers to edify one another, but to ban unbelievers from attending is stretching it. (ref: 1 Cor 14 "if an unbeliever comes into your midst...")

Esaias 11-20-2013 01:19 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288883)

Let's get practical: An unbeliever sees you and for whatever reason says, "hey, I want to go to church with you..." Are we then to say, no don't come to church until you have been saved?

I agree the meeting of believers is primarily for believers to edify one another, but to ban unbelievers from attending is stretching it. (ref: 1 Cor 14 "if an unbeliever comes into your midst...")
What if you were going to have the Lord's Supper tonight, and an unbeliever friend says 'Hey, I wanna come too'...

???? what do you say? 'Uh, well, the Lord's Supper is only for believers...'????

Or do you believe in totally open communion?

navygoat1998 11-20-2013 01:22 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288888)
What if you were going to have the Lord's Supper tonight, and an unbeliever friend says 'Hey, I wanna come too'...

???? what do you say? 'Uh, well, the Lord's Supper is only for believers...'????

Or do you believe in totally open communion?
Will you be having a glass of wine with your Lord's Supper???

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.45687...21797&pid=15.1

Esaias 11-20-2013 01:25 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by navygoat1998 (Post 1288890)
Will you be having a glass of wine with your Lord's Supper???

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.45687...21797&pid=15.1
WOW! Talk about a Cup of Blessing! It's so big it MUST be holy!

:heeheehee

TGBTG 11-20-2013 01:57 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288888)
What if you were going to have the Lord's Supper tonight, and an unbeliever friend says 'Hey, I wanna come too'...

???? what do you say? 'Uh, well, the Lord's Supper is only for believers...'????

Or do you believe in totally open communion?
Them coming does not mean they partake in communion.

An unbeliever attending the meeting does not mean he/she gets to teach doctrine. Since, they are not saved yet, they get to be "spectators" in the church, but not banned from the church.

Communion is for believers, but the unbeliever can be in the gathering. Again, I believe the gathering of saints is primarily for believers to edify each other.

However, given the scripture of 1 Cor 14 about the possibility of an unbeliever attending a church meeting and getting ministered to, it would seem to me that unbelivers should not be banned from attending church meetings. It is just another avenue for them to be exposed to the Word.

Praxeas 11-20-2013 02:44 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
1 Corinthians 14:22 ESV

Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

1 Corinthians 14:23 ESV

If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

1 Corinthians 14:24 ESV

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all

TGBTG 11-20-2013 02:48 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1288924)
1 Corinthians 14:22 ESV

Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

1 Corinthians 14:23 ESV

If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

1 Corinthians 14:24 ESV

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all
A little bit off topic here. How are tongues a sign for unbelievers?

KeptByTheWord 11-20-2013 02:58 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
I think there needs to be a balance in what we do. If we allow unbelievers to come into the assembly, and attempt to share in the meaningful parts of the service, without making a commitment to the Lord, it would be better to disciple, and teach them apart from the general assembly.

However, you cannot exclude the fact, that many times the Spirit of the Lord can move where people are gathered together, and that unbeliever/sinner comes face to face with the Lord, and is touched and changed by the Spirit of the Lord.

So, I think we should understand and be led by the Spirit in this, and that there should be no "set" rule, but if the assembly was operating in the gifts of the spirit, with body ministry present, and a sincere desire to allow the Spirit to minister to them, the needs of the unbeliever, and the believer would be met in a way that ONLY the HG can do.

We should never set limits on God, and the HG because we know how it can dramatically change lives with just one touch of His hand. We MUST be led by the Spirit in each individual situation, because if not, then legalism takes over, and then it is hard for the Spirit to do its work.

KeptByTheWord 11-20-2013 02:59 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288927)
A little bit off topic here. How are tongues a sign for unbelievers?
Something visible or audible that they can hear/see, that would help cause them to believe...

TGBTG 11-20-2013 04:10 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1288924)
1 Corinthians 14:22 ESV

Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

1 Corinthians 14:23 ESV

If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

1 Corinthians 14:24 ESV

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288927)
A little bit off topic here. How are tongues a sign for unbelievers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1288935)
Something visible or audible that they can hear/see, that would help cause them to believe...
But unbelievers cannot understand tongues, right?

Isn't that why Paul said an unbeliever might think we are out of our mind if said unbeliever saw a bunch of believers speaking in tongues? So how does speaking in tongues help them believe?

Esaias 11-20-2013 04:16 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288965)
But unbelievers cannot understand tongues, right?

Isn't that why Paul said an unbeliever might think we are out of our mind if said unbeliever saw a bunch of believers speaking in tongues? So how does speaking in tongues help them believe?
With stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people, yet for all they will not hear me.

Wherefore tongues are a sign for them that believe not.

That is to say, if everyone is peaking in tongues with no interpreter, then the unbeliever will not become convinced, but will conclude the church is insane and off their rocker. IE they will not 'believe' or hearken unto God. Thus, tongues becomes a witness or sign against them, as per the OT citation.

Paul would rather they prophesied, so as to produce belief, not just speak in tongues (with no interpretation) which will likely not produce belief.

phareztamar 11-20-2013 04:27 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?

Gee, I dunno...do sick people belong in a hospital?

Esaias 11-20-2013 04:28 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phareztamar (Post 1288972)
Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?

Gee, I dunno...do sick people belong in a hospital?
Is the church a hospital?

Did Jesus say for us to go forth and build churches so the sick can come in if they want to and get better?

Or did he say for us to go forth and TELL THEM THE GOOD NEWS, heal them, and receive them as members of the church?

TGBTG 11-20-2013 04:31 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288966)
With stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people, yet for all they will not hear me.

Wherefore tongues are a sign for them that believe not.

That is to say, if everyone is peaking in tongues with no interpreter, then the unbeliever will not become convinced, but will conclude the church is insane and off their rocker.
I get that part. Interpretation is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288966)
IE they will not 'believe' or hearken unto God. Thus, tongues becomes a witness or sign against them, as per the OT citation.

Paul would rather they prophesied, so as to produce belief, not just speak in tongues (with no interpretation) which will likely not produce belief.
1 Cor 14 "...but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

Based on what you wrote, it seems you're saying prophesying serves unbelievers?

Esaias 11-20-2013 05:05 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1288975)


1 Cor 14 "...but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

Based on what you wrote, it seems you're saying prophesying serves unbelievers?
No. I'm saying prophesying can produce belief, therefore it is a sign for them that believe.

Praxeas 11-20-2013 05:11 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
So clearly Paul was ok with unbelievers in our midst...

Esaias 11-20-2013 05:22 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1288987)
So clearly Paul was ok with unbelievers in our midst...
Paul's statement indicates unbelievers being in the assembly was an exception, not the rule. He said 'IF one comes in' etc. Thus, while unbelievers were not unilaterally excluded from all meetings whatsoever at all times, it was nevertheless RARE for an unbeliever to come into the assembly.

They certainly had no concept of the assembly as being the primary place for evangelistic efforts. That was reserved for 'out there'.

Praxeas 11-20-2013 08:26 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288992)
Paul's statement indicates unbelievers being in the assembly was an exception, not the rule. He said 'IF one comes in' etc. Thus, while unbelievers were not unilaterally excluded from all meetings whatsoever at all times, it was nevertheless RARE for an unbeliever to come into the assembly.

They certainly had no concept of the assembly as being the primary place for evangelistic efforts. That was reserved for 'out there'.
No he does not indicate it is an exception. He indicates it's possible and not forbidden.

Even in my church we don't always have an unbeliever visiting.

BTW Im not sure but it seems like you just agreed with me except that for some reason you want to argue over how often?

mizpeh 11-20-2013 08:28 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
Ekklasia, the Greek word for church, also means assembly.

tv1a 11-20-2013 09:18 PM
Re: Do unbelievers belong in the assembly?
 
That's a huge stretch tying unbelievers to wickedness.
Other points are valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1288860)
Are unbelievers in their sins? Are they still sinning? Are they sinners?

If so, then they are by definition 'wicked'. The wicked believer expelled in Corinthians was a believer who was sinning. Are sinners sinning? Do they sin?

Anyway, if the bible indicates the lost are 'saved' by Christians 'going forth' with the gospel, then why do we reverse that and establish a pattern where the lost 'come to church to hopefully get 'em saved'?


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