Back with some new perspective
 

Greetings to AFF! It has been about 6 years since I last participated in the discussions on this forum (although I peek out here on occasion). Much has changed in my life since I was last here. God has graciously blessed my husband and I with two beautiful kids: Jaxon our 4 year old son and Acacia our 2 year old princess. We are no longer part of the UPC (or any other traditional holiness pentecostal group) and boy was that transition an eye opening experience. I have noticed some interesting discussions our here recently and just want to chime in, shake things up a little maybe. Let the fun begin! :thumbsup

Re: Back with some new perspective
 

Wow...lol. Welcome back

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That is OK, you do not have to be a part of an organization to be a part of the kingdom of God.

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Does God have an organization?

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Hey there, and welcome back!!!

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Hey, Roxanne!

I remember you well!! Welcome back and congratulations on your new journey! I am very excited for you! :thumbsup Can you share what brought you to where you are now?? Can you share where you are now as well?

An Old Friend,

ILG

Re: Back with some new perspective
 

Yes, please do... I second the motion!

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Indeed - Dear Roxanne was quite the fireball six years ago. Do tell :)

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This journey of change began about 2 years ago. My dear husband had completed his MBA and had started a course for our church to help folks live more on purpose to thus better reach a lost and dying world with the gospel. He and our pastor felt that one of the key issues that God was dealing with our church was about transparency. At the same time, our church was growing and our pastor and his wife had started a midweek Bible study in their home that soon grew into a daughter work.
My pastor, his wife, my husband, myself, our youth pastor and his wife were all finding ourselves asking: how do we truly and effectively communicate the gospel to our area? How do we reach people? Evangelizing ourselves is not fulfilling the Great Commission!
Then, people from the daughter work who came to visit our main Sunday services began to ask our pastor: why do the ladies in your church only wear dressed? Why do they not wear jewelry or use make up? Why do they not cut their hair? So my pastor set out to prepare good, sound, scriptural reasons to explain why our ladies looked as they did. He realized that he would be presenting these teachings to honest, well educated people who were seeing the Word of God through eyes and hearts not previously influenced by the 'holiness' culture that our church had, compliments of the denomination to which we belonged. He soon realized that he could not honestly make the scriptures say that these things were sinful.
Now, at the same time, my dear husband was taking another look at these very same things and very exuberantly discussing them with me. I was not interested, in fact was afraid of what I was hearing, and actually one day told him, "I don't wish to discuss this please stop!" I was very distressed and found myself asking God to please restore my husband's sanity. But as I continued to pray about these things, God began to take me for a spiritual stroll through the gospels and pointed out how the Pharisees were so entrenched in their traditions that they missed what God was doing, in fact, fought against Him! This was a painful realization for me because I had been quite a zealous holiness Pharisee; this was all that I knew and I had become accustomed to judging everything by those man made 'holiness standards' that I had been taught from my childhood. (To be continued)

Re: Back with some new perspective
 

Yay, Roxanne!! Eagerly awaiting the next installment. ;)

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Me too... cliff hanger!

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I suggest the book Neo-Phariseeism. It's an easy read, although I laughed at the over-use of the exclamation point.

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:popcorn2

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Can someone pick my jaw up off the floor?

And someone needs to go find Sarge!!!!

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The Journey, Part II:
While God was giving me a good look at myself in the mirror of His Word, my pastor was coming to the realization that he also had some decisions to make. He could either do what some licensed UPC ministers do and just passively not teach 'standards' anymore while signing the affirmation at license renewal time, or he could be honest and transparent with the members of our church. He decided to do the latter. He and his wife sat down with each family and single person and explained what had been happening in his search to find an honest Biblical way to teach true holiness. He explained that the Bible teaches principles and relationship, not rules and regulations, and that it is the responsibility of the ministry to teach the principles and equip the saints to properly apply those principles AS they grow in their relationship with Jesus. It is NOT the duty of the ministry to make rules.
And meanwhile, I had cautiously began listening to my husband again as he talked about how much license the holiness movement had taken and how they relied heavily on the faulty premise that New Testament ministry took the place of, and thus had the authority of, the Old Testament priesthood, and by extension had an obligation to judge everything and make rules to cover all facets of life. This was a fearful conversation for me because this was the only thing I had ever known, and questioning the authority of the ministry was most definitely setting the stage for being deceived and being lost. And there were all the horror stories about those who cast off 'holiness' how they went 'off the deep end' into terrible sin. My pastor who could be considered a 'pedigreed Pentecostal' had also heard these stories. He decided to find out for himself if they were true; he soon discovered that what had been said about those who 'backslid' was not true. This information was shared with me to help answer this very serious concern. I must say, it is a painful thing to discover that those people who you trust and believe to be honest Christians have been spreading lies. (To Be Continued)

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There are all kinds of stories that are passed around the church as true, but usually they are tales with little if any foundation. I have long ago taken a dim view of this sort of preaching by stories. I prefer to preach from the Bible.

It is wrong to lie in order to preach the truth, for the truth does not need aid from any lie.

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I definitely feel your pain in this, Roxanne. Thanks for sharing all of this. Many of us have walked this road before you and we are all rejoicing! Of course, not in the way that we had been taught.....that we would rejoice in your "backsliding" so we have company, but rejoicing in that you are seeing the same things we came to see. It's so difficult to be willing to open your eyes to this when it threatens to shake up your whole world. It did, and it does. Many of us have given up family, ministries, incomes, friends, reputations and the like in order to follow what we know to be true.

Re: Back with some new perspective
 

:popcorn2

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Your Pastor was good with standards until "well educated people" show up, then changes it because he suddenly had a revelation that it's not the truth? Ok.

1) How long has your Pastor been a Pastor? 2) It took these "well educated people" to finally get your Pastor to study this himself and find out he didn't believe what he'd been preaching for however long he's been preaching?!?

Spare the drama.

It'll play well here on AFF and you'll get a bunch of positive, affirming posts congratulating your newfound beliefs - as evidenced by the posts already.

What would have happened if those "well educated people" hadn't shown up and your church was comprised of just a bunch of ignert folk!? Good thing those degrees helped influence your Pastor! Just imagine what else he can change if there's money with those "well educated people."

:nod

Re: Back with some new perspective
 

You should get more popcorn, and grab a seat on the :couch too... :toofunny

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:largehalo

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I think you're missing the point in here. First off you didn't highlight the "honest" part...lol

The point is that these new folks did not have a background in holiness semantics per se. So, the Pastor had to look for BIBLICAL SUPPORT for whatever standards he had preaching.

I don't know how many holiness churches you've been a part of, but when it comes to standards, it's mostly just said from the pulpit without any or much scriptural backing. It ends up being the Pastor said it and that's it.

For people who grew up in a holiness setting where you can't question a Pastor's teaching, these standards are easily believed as truth. (And breaking them means going to hell.)

However, if you're gonna preach these standards to new people who really want to believe the BIBLE ONLY, then you'd have to show them from the BIBLE scriptural support for these standards...and that's where the Pastor realized those supposed standards were not in the bible all along.

Hence, the statement:
You're totally missing the context of this post big time. This church according to the poster had not been much active in evangelizing those outside their church. In an effort to do using honest biblical approach, the scale began to fall off the pastor's eyes.

Maybe you can blame the Pastor for preaching the standards all these years without him looking for scriptural support, but at least give him credit for being honest after finding out and not just signing the affirmation docs as some do even though they do not believe it's biblical.

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:hmmm

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What a wonderful revelation this is! And, most OP pastors don't want to recognize this, because they enjoy the "control" all their man-made various and sundry laws give them. If Biblical principles were taught, along with proper authority - God-Christ-husband-wife-family.... the principles of holiness would be in their proper place.

Right. The OT priesthood and all its authority was abolished in the death of Christ, and now Christ is the law for us. And the law and its commandments are summed up in loving God, and loving one another.

The people who don't want to see this, don't want to give up their control and authority just like the Pharisees. They enjoy the laws, because it makes them appear more spiritual. However, the true LAW has appeared, and it is Jesus Christ, must to the dismay of the *Pharisees* who want to hold onto the man-made do's and don'ts.

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??

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So the other members are liars? Awesome, the church was comprised of liars and idiots before these honest, well educated people started coming! :lol I'm mostly joking...

Why the need to identify these people as "well educated." There have been several posts here on AFF and other forums that either come out and say it or imply that Pastors only preach standards to idiots and people who are uneducated.

After how long is he finally looking for Biblical support for his message? And whether you like it or not, it is what it is. It took these "honest, well educated people" coming to the church before he started looking for Biblical support. That's really sad.

I understand how to disciple new converts, but thanks for the refresher course! :thumbsup

Give the Pastor credit for finally opening the Bible to study what's been there all the time he's been Pastoring, but only recently became interested in because "well educated people" started coming to the church? :toofunny

If there was a blue ribbon smiley, I'd post it.

Now that the well educated people have helped open the Pastor's eyes on standards, let's see what would happen if some rich people started attending! :lol Oh the revelations! :happydance

FTR - I don't believe in outward standards. I never did while growing up in a UPC church my dad Pastored.

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n.david, I must say, from what you have posted so far on this thread, you seem to exhibit the less desirable character traits of some (thankfully not all) preachers' kids I have known during my years in the UPC: rude, sarcastic, and and substandard reading and comprehension skills compensated for by insinuation and false accusation. But please, continue with your comments: I have some well deserved reaping to do from my former days on this forum, and you need to continue to exercise the skills you developed as a UPC PK: slandering, bearing false witness, and condemning others from the safety of your privileged position as the pastor's kid.
Every good story needs a peanut gallery; thank you for volunteering!

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That's exactly how I felt when I started getting the backlash of my revelation. I dished it out plenty well back in the day. I would take it too. Comes with the territory is all. :thumbsup

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Why did your family (you and your husband) and our pastor wait to ask these questions until there were new people attending your church?

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I take it the insinuation must be that he had ulterior motives, such as wanting a larger congregation, and that is why he changed his views. Well, I'll let Roxanne answer the question but I just want to say that the two may have nothing at all to do with each other.

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I did not insinuate that at all. I simply asked why this was never seen as important before? It may truely be that the two are 100% unrelated. My question is simply why did know one invovled ever feel the need to draw closer to God through a study of God's word in what God expects of us?

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And ILG, I am happy to clarify (or just provide more material for misinterpretation, as the case may be). Thank you for your gracious welcome back. I am certainly not deserving of it as I was a terror sometimes in the past.

Anyway, I believe I mentioned that for a good while previous to my pastor beginning a Bible study in his home that grew into a daughter work, he and his wife, my husband, our youth pastor and his wife, were looking at a lot of things because the methods that we were using to try to reach our area were not working. I don't know how the climate is spiritually elsewhere in this United States of America, but I do know that in the Pacific Northwest, people are very 'independently spiritual' and are not very likely to visit a church just because somebody left a flyer on their door or a coworker or neighbor invited them to a special service. What many people DO respond to, as the home Bible study/daughter work showed us, is that relationship that is built on trust. In fact, our church format currently is that we have one service in a school gymnasium on Sunday, and during the week, we have house meetings in different areas. My husband leads one of these house meetings and there are several people who are pretty faithful to those meetings, and God is working in their lives in some amazing ways, yet they have been to a Sunday church service less than a dozen times over the past 2 - 3 years. These are people who have good relationships with people in our church, and then they in turn bring others who have good relationships with them.
So, the standard 'outreach' model was not working for our church. And at the same time, separately from the church outreach focus, my pastor was also doing a lot of personal study about just how Biblical these 'holiness standards' were; research beyond David Bernard's "In Search of Holiness" into church history, original Greek texts, etc. He is a very careful man, a good Christian man, and a good pastor with a heart to care for the people in our church, so he wasn't looking for reasons to 'throw everything out' or 'go charismatic' (don't you just love that catch all perjorative label?). He, too, comes from a culture of 'holiness', in fact, before he came to pastor our small church, he was the assistant pastor in a very big church that was part of founding the WPF.
So, these two things, my pastor's personal study and research, and our church's growth, happened at the same time. When my pastor came to our church, he didn't need to 'preach/teach standards'. He inherited a group that already followed these things.
His views were already changing, and likely we would have seen a more gradual change, but when asked an honest question, he felt he could no longer honestly do the scripture hokey pokey and feed these new souls tradition labelled as doctrine.
I also find the snide comments about money rather telling, because these very rumors have been circulated about my pastor and about our church by 'ministering brethren' who never once actually called to ask what was really going on. And I think I will end this part of the story here and let the Righteous Judge handle those who have passed around such lies.
Back to more of my story later.

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Thank you, TGBTG, for reading and understanding my post!

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Why do you suppose they didn't?

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I thank you Mrs. Murphy for sharing your story. Continue to let God guide you through prayer and His word. Don't let the narrow minded ones who are still bound try to discredit your revelations by slinging mud all while assuming you're lost or have been spiritually seduced.

BTW, I'm a recovering pharisee too that has hurt way too many people over the years.

Re: Back with some new perspective
 

:faint

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Let me rephrase my comment. Why did it take the pastor so long to begin questioning what he believed? If he was already questioning things how could he continue to preach them as truth if he was not sure of the validity of those issues? I yearly do not have I'll intentions. Really when it comes right down to it I guess it doesn't matter what my questions are because I will not be the posters judge or her pastors judge. Though I may and do strongly disagree with them on this topic God has given each person thought to choose for themselves the path they will follow. This does not mean all paths are correct just each has that God given right. If I came across as making accusations I apologize. I think you are wrong but it is your right. I can and will disagree but I should not be rude.

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There's that smiley I was looking for! LOL!

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Welcome back Roxanne! I have to admit I am very surprised you have joined us recovering Pharisees. You and I grew up in similar circles.

The longer I have been out of the UPC I find myself asking, why did it take me so long to find truth. I am a UPC PK and believed everything taught with every fiber of my being. It was God who began to work on my heart and thought process. I think it was a process of three years before I actually left because I was so afraid of being lost.

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Well, if you are pastoring you are not going to preach against what your organization teaches unless you are very sure you are right. So, there would be a time between the questioning and the taking of a stand that he probably wasn't preaching it much but just quietly questioning and living it.