Is There A Difference In?
 

A Pastor teaching a standard of Holiness.....or
A Pastor teaching on a Holiness standard of dress?

Re: Is There A Difference In?
 

I believe PRINCIPLES need to be taught, and then allow the husband/wife team in their home to properly apply those principles in their home. It makes each of us responsible to the LORD for our holiness, and not to a man/group/organization.

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I believe that the command was for us to 'be ye holy as I am holy'. Jesus commanded us to love God and love our neighbor. How else was Jesus holy in doing more than that? I don't recall that His holiness has anything to do with what He was wearing at any time. Nor do I see that in any scripture anywhere, whether OT or NT.

Peter preached about attitudes. I believe if our attitude is right and we have love for one another, we won't fail in being holy. There doesn't need to be a list of do's and don'ts.

Ever wonder how UPC women might be dressing if someone didn't tell them how? I say this because there isn't a list in the Bible that states how women should dress, or men either. And it's really no different than other groups that have a laundry list for their members, whether they are LDS, Amish, Mennonite, Muslim, or cults like Rama Bahera. They all have Bible to prove it.

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I've never yet found the 'scripture' that equates holiness with a piece of clothing, or taking it one step further.... salvation based on one's physical clothing...

Anyone?

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Wait a minute. There is a standard and it is guided by our spiritual growth in the Lord.
It not only says be ye holy for I am holy, but it is written also
to come out from among them
they will know you are my people ....because you keep my laws
I the Lord thy God am One
I will be your God and you will be my people.
When people look at you, do they have to wonder or guess who you are?
I have never seen you before, but I should be able to tell who you are.
Has a a stranger ever approached you and said, "I can tell you walk with the Lord." Has anyone ever cried on your shoulder and told you their story and ask for prayer, without knowing your name. They won't do that if you have an ring in your lip, too short skirt or purple hair. There is a difference. holiness is reflected outside. Holiness should be your apostolic life. being saved is for life.

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Great points

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If a strict holiness woman was walking around in the 1950's, she'd look no different than most women of the time. Does that mean because she didn't stand out then, she wasn't saved? Modesty could also be defined as not standing out.

Yes we are to be separate and holy, but to say we should stand out solely based on our out-dated attire can be a slippery slope of ignoring the inner man while adorning the outward. You can dress modestly without looking like you stepped out of a time machine.

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I guess men of the church today are not so "blessed" as women of the church, since men dress like the average man on the street and are not recognizably "Christian" by their dress. Women are the only ones who are able to live that silent witness. Maybe that's a good thing. Leave the preaching to the men, and let the women listen in silence. :heeheehee

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Yes Maritha, I have had someone do this, and I have been called a sanctified Lady, A young man from Mexico which I had never seen said to me " You Christian, Right " and other instances in which I will not go into, but I felt blessed to be recognized as a Christian and not a religious person. I like your response. Thank's

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You have made the usual OP points regarding standards, without a single verse here that correlates holiness with clothing. Please search the scriptures, and supply just ONE scripture that equates holiness with outward clothing. Just one.

To address your points ....
1. "It not only says be ye holy for I am holy".
HOW are we to be holy like God, if God is a spirit? Does God wear clothing? Please answer this question.

2. "When people look at you, do they have to wonder or guess who you are?"

Jesus said this about your point, John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another, by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, IF YE HAVE LOVE ONE TO ANOTHER."

These words are from Jesus himself.... the way people should know who we are is by our love one to another.... he never said a word about clothing, and He certainly could have... but He didn't. Think about this! How you treat those around you is how you demonstrate that you are a disciple of Jesus! Not a word here about clothing.

And like a couple of others have pointed out... why is the need to look different from the world always on the woman? Do not men need to look different somehow as well?

3. Has a a stranger ever approached you and said, "I can tell you walk with the Lord." Has anyone ever cried on your shoulder and told you their story and ask for prayer, without knowing your name. They won't do that if you have an ring in your lip, too short skirt or purple hair. There is a difference. holiness is reflected outside. Holiness should be your apostolic life. being saved is for life.

Yes, Maritha, I don't look the part of a typical OP lady most of the time, although if I choose to, I can certainly put my hair up in a bun, put on a dress, and look like a OP lady. But I have been dressed wearing slacks, light makeup, a touch of jewelry, and have had strangers ask me where I attend church, have witnessed to many, many people ask me to pray for them. You see, it is the spirit that flows through me that lets people know that there is something about me that is different, and it is the SPIRIT of God that their spirit bears witness to, not my clothing.

I certainly wouldn't wear purple hair, or a ring in my lip, or any other such punk nonsense. Women can look just as modest in a pair of slacks as a skirt, and to be sure, I've seen a lot of women look very inappropriate in a skirt, and this in most OP churches....

I recognize the mindset that you have, and it is difficult after being taught these things for many years to look at someone and think that because they have a pair of slacks on that they must not be saved.

But according to the words of Jesus, what matters most is what is on the inside of our heart first, and that is how men will know that we are HIS disciples, by our love for Him, and for one another.

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Yes. There is a difference.

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Is that how you feel about our Ladies, that they go around in OUT-Dated Attire? Our ladies look very nice and up to date. We may be from the south, but we do not look like Old Time washer women, and this post is very offensive to those of us who still choose to wear skirts.

Do these people look as if they are dressing in Out Dated Attire, or do they look like happy Christians, who joy in serving God?

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I think a woman in a modest, loose fitting skirt with long hair is beautiful. I have no problem with some of the clothing "standards" the OP holds.

The problem is that they do not think a woman can look modest in anything but a skirt, which is where my husband and I disagree with this mindset.

This is not a Biblical principle, only personal preference which has been embraced by the OP as a whole. If you think women look best in a skirt, than by all means, wear only a skirt. But don't judge someone who doesn't share the same conviction or preference as you.

Dressing/attire/hair really should be a personal conviction and application of principle set forth by the husband of the household, as Biblical authority shows... God-Christ-husband-wife-family. And the standards should not be taught as salvational.

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Yes, there's a difference; but also we should stop equating holiness with dress standards. It's a disservice to the subject of Holiness to simply make it about dress standards.

Mention "Holiness standards" in the average UPC church and the overwhelming majority of people will think "dress standards." It's so much more than personal opinion and gripes about what people wear.

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I agree. One objection I have to the UPC dress standards is that it's tied to salvation. Another is this ridiculous notion that dresses are the only modest apparel for women. Simply untrue.

I believe saints should be modest, and it should be discussed in churches. Not with rules and regulations, but just the overall concept of modesty.

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Yes it is n david, but it is offensive when people who do these things, and look so nice, are subjected to rude comments. For example, if someone wants to dress in Modest attire, why should that offend anyone, and give them cause to make ugly remarks?

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:thumbsup

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:highfive

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That goes both ways. Have you ever made ugly remarks about a woman in slacks? :)

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It shouldn't offend. I've heard and read remarks like this before:

It's unfair to paint with a broad brush. I have seen very, very few UPC women wearing out-dated attire or look like they've stepped out of a time machine. It's not to say I haven't seen them, but it's very rare. So suggesting that because someone believes in dress standards is out of date or unfashionable is not entirely accurate.

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I guess some automatically jump to the conclusion that when I mention a standard of holiness and instantly think I meant standard of HOLINESS
dress, when in fact, in my opinion it's two different things.

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I apologize for making a broad statement that has offended. Honestly, I did not mean to offend and the pics that Miss Scarlett posted show beautiful people that are dressed modestly and in current trends. Please accept my apologies.

The point I was trying to make is that some are too concerned with how to appear different from the world. If we want to stand out that kind of goes against modesty in that it is immodest if we stand out too much. The skirt wearing women of the 1950's didn't stand out in an obvious manner whereas sometimes they do now.

I agree that we shouldn't tie certain 'holiness' standards to salvation and judge solely on hair/skirt length, make-up, jewelry, etc.

Again, I apologize for my insensitive comments.

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Yes, there is a difference.
I am thankful for both teachings! :nod

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Thank you Lacey for your understanding.

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When the inside is made right, He WILL work on the OUTWARD part too. Isn't this correct. :thumbsup :nod :heeheehee

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I believe that the error is in teaching that what we wear makes us "holy". This is so far from the truth. What makes us "holy" is the blood of Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that leads us deeper and deeper into Christlikeness. When we are "holy" we seek to be modest as we learn God's desire for us with regards to how we are to live. But the modesty doesn't make us holy... it is a byproduct of an inward holiness that is seeking to be like Jesus in effort to draw closer and closer to God.

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Having experienced very hurtful things from both sides does not excuse me from assuming or lashing out as I did. Thank you for accepting my apology.

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Just curious here. In the pictures posted in this thread, how are the guys dressed any differently from the men in the world? How can the world see those guys and know by their dressing that they are christians?

Or are holiness dress standards for women only?

Re: Is There A Difference In?
 

Because they don't have beards :heeheehee

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the pictures were posted to show that Apostolics do not wear out of style clothing only, and no other reason. :blah

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Yes, which is were the emphasis needs to be when holiness is being taught :)

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People seem to ask this question a lot. Also in regards to women and modesty. The standards or dressing modestly is not necessarily just dressing different for different sakes. Also the man have the same standards more or less.

The main reason women of Apostolic/Pentecostal faith adhering to standards of dress and modesty stands out so much is because the women of our culture is farther gone in regards to modesty. Women clothes in general are tighter and/or expose more flesh. Men clothes by contrast is mostly modest.

A woman that is covered will be suspected as being religious while a man that is covered is normal attire for a man. Its quite obvious why Apostolic/Pentecostal women stand out. Go to any department store and people watch.

Someone on the forum posted a picture of a pentecostal family all wearing simple matching clothes of a black top and jean bottom. The man looked like the average man but the females was distinctly apostolic yet they were all wearing the same style of clothing.

Its the society we live in. Immodesty in women is natural and almost expected in our present day culture. And if a women is not dressed like such some deem to call her old fashioned.

For a simple example, its righteous or right to not lie, steal, or cheat. The fact that a person don't lie, steal, or cheat don't make them holy. But a holy person wouldn't do such and in that regard he won't be any different from the other man that is not holy at all but refuses to lie, steal, or cheat. Being holy is not being different from right, just different from wrong.

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:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

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Lol..relax. The question was in keeping with the theme of the thread. Since we're supposed to be dressed in a way that sets us apart from the world, how can a man dress to be set apart from the world?

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One question for you. Please show me a scripture in the Bible that equates holiness with clothing. Thanks.

I always thought the fruit of the Spirit were standards of holiness as they reflect the character of God. He is holy. Outward modesty would be standards of righteousness IMO.

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:thumbsup Precisely!

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And who determines what modest is? Just because we see someone dressed in a way we consider immodest are they really?

Re: Is There A Difference In?