Chronic Illness
 

As many times as I've read these scriptures, I just noticed something about them, I never saw before.

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“ Is any among you afflicted? let him pray”

I would think, this is a chronic illness, and it does not say that God will heal that. I don't believe that God healed Paul.
Of course the “Positive Confessors” will deny that Paul had an illness. But look at the word, affliction.

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infirmitties----English Words used in KJV:
infirmity 17
weakness 5
disease 1
sickness 1
[Total Count: 24]
..
from <G772> (asthenes); feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty :- disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness

Paul's “thorn in the flesh” was his “infirmity.”

So what are we supposed to do? This is kinda bad news for me. I've been pretty weak, this winter, but still felt like that God would heal me. But since my problem is chronic, God has not promised to heal. I know, 'by His stripes we are healed” but everyone is not healed.

Is there more insight that I have overlooked?

Re: Chronic Illness
 

I think God ordained that everyone be healed by the New Covenant blessings through the blood. But so many factors and variables may be hindering that, so it is not so simply explained why some are not healed.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Also, I believe that God spoke to Paul about his infirmity in a way not easily recognized. I think he implied that Paul ought to rebuke the thing himself, instead of asking God to remove it. GRACE is divine empowerment. It reminds me of Jesus telling us to command the mountain to be removed and cast into the sea, instead of asking God to remove it. So many ask God to heal them, when they are supposed to command the sickness to go, themselves.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

I never thought of this before, but it now gives validity to what I've witnessed from older people and from some of the over-zealous nutjob types.

"I rebuke this diabetes in the Name of Jesus!"
"I rebuke this sore throat in the Name of Jesus!"

Or even...

"I rebuked that cancer, that pain, etc. and in Jesus Name I can tell you it's gone!"

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Ooooops.....


Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. (Psalms 34:19 KJV)

Re: Chronic Illness
 

And then there was.....


Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. (Psalms 119:67 KJV)

Paul's thorn was the messenger of Satan...

very Word Of Faith of you

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Jermyn, I have always felt, that if they say, "It is gone." and it is not, they have just lied to the person or to themselves.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

And Houston, what was the messenger of Satan? A demon?
Paul had authority over demons. He would have just cast it out. Or off of him.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Oh, but that's "man's logic", not "God's logic". :winkgrin

Re: Chronic Illness
 

:blink

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Sorry you are feeling poorly, Renee. I think most of us will go that way before it's over.....

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Where is it written that Paul was ”afflicted,” or that he had an illness? Certainly NOT in this passage -

”And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (II Corinthians 12:9, KJV).

Neither did James use the word ”affliction,” rather it is ”afflicted,” a word whose synonym is ”chasten” (Webster’s New International Dictionary Unabridged, 2nd Edition, 1914).

For one to be ”afflicted” implies that they have been ”inflicted” with continual or chronic physical pain, disease, or suffering that has been administered for the purpose of correction (which, BTW, also represents an accurate description of ”chasten”).

Most assuredly God does not desire that any except the one whom He has ”chastened” to pray for their own healing. This is why John was inspired to write that ”if any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it” (see I John 5:14, KJV).

Many have held that the ”sin unto death” mentioned by John refers to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but such is a misrepresentation or misinterpretation, for that is a sin which results in immediate death to the offender (see Acts 5:1-10, KJV). Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is a sin that is committed by the “fruits” of one’s lips, and seeing that there is no forgiveness for such a sin, then there remains no reason for God to allow the offender to remain alive, therefore death immediately follows its commission.

Seeing that one does not pray for the dead sinner then John could not have been referring to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, rather he was referencing the very same thing which James wrote about, that is, an ”infliction” (”chastisement” if you will), which God has imposed upon a righteous individual for a sin (s) they have committed, and this because they have failed or neglected to repent of it (God knoweth what that sin might be).

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Very good. I had posted this, but thought I would post it again.


Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. (Psalms 119:67 KJV)

Re: Chronic Illness
 

I just posted a video on another healing thread, a very powerful one, that might be considered to be coming from a secular perspective. What i liked about it was that it appears to connect faith with healing, and gives the science--if you can buy that--of how faith is effective. It should be pretty easy to find, or i can fetch it--but I'd also like to point out that if you are eating--an act which must be correlated with taking in Scripture, for a Christian--CAFO protein, and the chemical concoctions dubbed 'food' at the grocery store, i have to wonder a) how much of this 'confidence' you may expect to have, and b) how close you may be to actually ingesting 'witchcraft' unawares.

While this might seem like a stretch, note that you are going to go have a mammogram, ladies, when vitamin D deficiency is a better marker for breast cancer?

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Oh! If we all but understood the truth underlying this passage! Please note the following in support thereof: ...


"He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted.
And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction; then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded.
He openeth also their ear to disciple, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.
And if they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasure.
But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
... Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee" (Job 36:7-12, 18, KJV).

Yea, God doth "chasten" the righteous with "cords of affliction," if it be that they be found guilty of having committed an act or acts of unrighteousness; for as written by John, "all unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin unto death" (I John 5:17, KJV).

Simply stated, the sacred writings of the Scriptures are replete with knowledge showing us that should a righteous man commit an act of unrighteousness (i.e., sin), even though it be done in ignorance, God takes certain steps to make that man aware of his unrighteous deed. As evidenced by the words which the prophet Elihu spake unto Job, God "then sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded," this being done to make the offender aware of his unrighteousness so he can repent thereof and be restored to a right standing before God. Such is the example depicted in the sufferings of Job, for he was guilty of having committed unrighteousness of which he apparently was utterly unaware, that is, until the words of the prophet Elihu were confirmed to him by none other than the LORD Himself.

A careful study of Job's trial of "affliction" reveals that he had cried aloud unto God during his lamentations, saying, "Oh that one would hear me!" (Job 31:35, KJV) Almost as soon as these words departed from his lips we find that the prophet Elihu appeared on the scene, informing Job, "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead;..." (Job 33:6, KJV) after which he proceedeth to inform Job and his three companions of the unrighteousness which wrought physical and emotional suffering unto Job, saying, "Job hath spoken words without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom ... For he hath added rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God" (Job 34:35, 37, KJV). And what was the very first words that God spake to Job after Elihu had finished his admonishment?

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 'Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me'" (Job 38:1-3, KJV). And what was Job's response?

"Then Job answered the LORD, and said, ... 'Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. ... Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:1, 3, 5, KJV).

Yes, Job was "afflicted" because he had been guilty of unwittingly speaking about things of which he did not possess all of the facts about; and as noted in the words of James 5:13, it was only through Job's prayer of repentance that he was relieved of his sufferings and restored to a right standing before God. And yes, as written by John, this act of unrighteousness is also "a sin that is unto death," that is, if the one experiencing such an "affliction" fails or neglects to heed the many warnings God sends their way to alert them, and refuses to repent.

As it was during the days of old, I am persuaded to believe that there are many today who are guilty of the same act of unrighteousness which Job committed, yet they have either failed to take heed to God's warnings and therefore never become not aware of it. As a result many today have been, and continue to be compelled to confront God's "chastening." I know that this is true, for I speak these words from personal experience!

Let it be understood that God NEVER "inflicts" physical suffering upon the righteous (that is, "chastens" them) without cause, and even then He does not abandon them to such fate, but takes certain steps to make them aware of the reason for their "affliction". Elihu also informs us that whenever God "chastens" the righteousness He "... speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not." God does this speaking "In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, that he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man." God undertakes this first step in His effort to make the righteous man aware of his transgression to "... keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword" (read Job 33:14-19, KJV).

Should it be that this initial act by God to alert man to the consequences of his transgressions goes unnoticed or neglected, then God's actions advances to the next level - "chastisement" - and this by "inflicting" the transgressor with physical sufferings ... "He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: so that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers" (Job 33:19-22, KJV).

The third, and final act which God undertakes to make a righteous man aware of his transgression(s), takes place (as it did with Job) "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:..." (the "uprightness" mentioned refers to God's righteousness, not the one that has been "chastened" with physical pain, disease, or suffering) (Job 33:23, KJV). Should it be that the one that has been "chastened" heeds the admonitions of the "messenger" whom God has sent to inform his of his transgression(s), and repents thereof, take note of what follows ...

"Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, 'Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a Ransom.' His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: he shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man His righteousness. He looketh upon men, and if any say, 'I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;' he will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light" (Job 33:24-28, KJV).

Oh! How doth God love His chosen people that rather than cast them away should it be that because of an act of transgression against Him they are instead "... bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction," He takes steps to bring them back into that honored place of righteousness with Himself.

Some of my thoughts on this matter for careful consideration by the reader ...

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Yes, most of us will. One cannot help but notice the similarities to the sin unto death, and the lack of a peaceful death, in these examples, imo. I might suggest--as i have before--that one in this position consider coming out of the world with respect to their food, and their physicians; but let the Spirit guide you there.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

From what I understand, Renee has been for years doing what you suggested, and I quote you... "consider coming out of the world with respect to their food, and their physicians".... although she, as with us all... are learning as we go, and we must definitely be guided by the Spirit in all things that we do.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

ya, i thot she had, hmm.
This video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPfXHni1ok
will bear strongly upon these quotes:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by renee819 View Post
Jermyn, I have always felt, that if they say, "It is gone." and it is not, they have just lied to the person or to themselves. /Quote
Oh, but that's "man's logic", not "God's logic".

wherein you are both possibly right. You can skip to the 3 hour mark for the gist, i think.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

that biblenews1 guy has the only study on Paul's thorn that ever made sense to me; the gist being that one may earn--i guess is the word--authority over demons, but it doesn't just get bestowed automatically. Don't know if you're interested there, i can dig it up if you like. Could possibly even bear upon your case. The only other things that might, if you are eating 'country,' might be your water (fluoride, etc), prescription reactions, or a deficiency of something; assuming you go for a walk, or have some activity a couple times a week. Have you done a cleanse lately? Might work wonders.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

For what it's worth
http://search.freefind.com/find.html...ery=paul+thorn

in ref #1, about 70% down the page, subtitle 'Paul's Thorn,' might be of some help, if you can overcome the differences in your models. I don't agree with everything this guy says, he has blind spots, too, so caveat emptor. See that your doctrinal diffs don't matter, if he has Truth that works for you. I've included the whole search for 'Paul thorn' for further reference, bc in there somewhere is a great synopsis of Paul having finally reached Spiritual Rapport and overcome the thorn, with Scriptural quotes--but I'm not sure if that is in the first ref.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

if you have seen chemtrails in your area, and have fluoridated water, this will be pertinent
http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/aluminum.html
but it's a toxic world; this is no secret. a week or two of cleanse once or twice a year is just good sense.
a 4 stage cleanse in the right order will, well, blow your mind, especially if you follow it up with a good powdered whole food vitamin.
and if you are eating out of a grocery store, CAFO protein, etc. now, i salute you for even being able to function.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

J/W. Since it was a "messenger of satan" sent to buffet the Apostle, why does it have to be a physical ailment, couldn't it have been a spiritual attack instead of a disease?

Re: Chronic Illness
 

nice.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

and although i can't overstress the importance of the spiritual aspect of maintaining ones health here, as most Americans are so in arrears there--do you 'go' at least 3 times a day? i don't think you can have a serious discussion about your health until you are--the answer from God seems to be clear in either case; "My Grace is sufficient." This is how Paul overcame his thorn, yes?

Re: Chronic Illness
 

I'm not sure how anyone on this board feels, but I don't believe the "It's God's will to heal 100% of the time" view.

The tabernacles of flesh in which we dwell are corrupted by a law of sin. We are all prone to sickness, weakness, injury, leading up to death. Much of our health is dependent upon us to do right by our mortal frame.

But see, that's what they are: mortal, i.e. able to die. Somethings are worth suffering, including health problems, even if they are chronic, if such suffering makes us more Christ-like.

Suffering for Godly reasons is noble and is, in my view, the height of glory, this side of Glory. Remember the blind man, who had suffered with an uncurable, disabling health condition all his life. It was for the glory of God, so that when Jesus healed Him, it would be noised abroad, investigated by the Pharisees, and help lead Christ to His eventual arrest and crucifixion, where the name of God was glorified.

We have to get rid of the idea that any form of physical suffering must be a lack of faith, sin-based issue. In fact, we have Scripture that indicates suffering in the flesh might be a demonstration of the highest levels of faith, all the way up to proving that someone has ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1).

So, if you are suffering, pray and push through. Let the affliction mold and make you more like Jesus.

And if God heals you, praise the Lord. If He does not, be faithful, even unto death, and know that there is a crown of righteousness stored up for you where no suffering exists.

And in the meantime, let's stop condemning the sick, the injured, and any other un-healed saints of God, as though the problem was with them. The only people God ever healed or heals are sinners!

Re: Chronic Illness
 

I tend to agree with you on this. It is a very difficult thing to just say that God intends for all his saints to be completely healthy, without a single illness or problem of any sort.

If you look at the lives of Paul and Timothy, we know that Paul suffered from some sort of issue, whether physical or spiritual, will always be a debate, as he never said exactly what it was, but he did suffer, and the Lord spoke to him and said "My grace is sufficient for thee" which would seem to imply it wasn't leaving, but that his grace would get him through.

And then, you see Paul writing to Timothy, and telling him to drink a little wine for his stomach ailments. So we understand through this, that sometimes God heals, sometimes he allows things, and sometimes he delivers... but it is his prerogative, and it is not for us to judge one another as though someone has done wrong, and they haven't received a complete healing...

There was another thread on here sometime back, where a poster, Evang. Benicasa seemed to think that if you weren't completely healed and delivered, it was because you didn't have enough faith. That kind of attitude has hindered many, many saints through the years, I believe.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Thank you, Thank you, Votive, for some common sense. I thought condemning the sick of sin, the teaching that” if you aren't healed when I pray for you, it must be because there is sin in your life.” went out of style, with the Charismatic, Positive confession, or “If I pray for you and you're not healed, then it is because you don't have enough faith.”

Votive wrote,
And yes, I can see many places where my illness has molded me. I was too ambitious as a young lady, a Dr once told me, that nature had to come in and give me a headache. I asked, why is that? He said that my brains would wear out 7 bodies, if nature didn't come in and stop me.

And because I could not do the physical things that I wanted to do, I turned to reading, study of the Bible and writing. And yet, thru it all, I've still always tried to garden, keep chickens, and have done many other things, that I wasn't able to do, or was barely able to do. And sometimes I wonder if God is pleased? Does He want me to just study and write? If so, I will. But I need to know for sure.

Where are our guides? Where are the “Gifts of the Spirit?” I believe the 'gifts' were given to the Church, as 'guides.” Are we, “all of us” so far away from God that the 'gifts' no longer operate? Is our minds so taken up, by worldly cares, and pleasures, that none, or very few hear from God any more.? Those that say they do, can we trust them? Can we trust ourselves when we think we hear from God.?

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Amen, Kept! It has hurt me many times. I remember one time, when I was prayed for the Evangelist said, "You are healed."
I said, "I hope so."
He looked at me with a snarl on his face and said, "That's your problem, You hope so. You've got to know so." I was hurt.

Why didn't Paul heal Trophimus in 2 Tim 4:20?

When a person is sick, sometimes their faith gets low. I believe that is why we are to call for the elders of he church. They are the one's that are supposed to have enough faith, that thru prayer, to heal the sick. But not wanting themselves to be blamed, they blame the lack of faith on the sick person. The sick person does have some faith, or they would not have called the elders.

One time when I had been in bed 2 days with a high temp. I called my Pastor, and while I was talking to him on the phone, my temp. broke, and I begin to get well. I have been healed many times of different things, but this chronic thing that has bothered me all of my life, I can not get rid of.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Yes, we all have to put up with chemtrails. One winter, I went out one morning and there was a sticky pinkish-orange substance on the snow. I wished I knew someone that could have checked to see what it was.

I have a well, but live near big farm fields, so I filter my water with a "Big Berky" I eat very little prepared foods. and I should be cleaned out pretty good. I've had a diarrhea for about a month, that I am sure that the medicine that I take for 'restless leg syndrome' is causing. I went to the Dr. Tuesday to get him to change my medicine. He wouldn't. And later called my son and told him to take me to the emergency room. My white blood count was 68000. It has been running 55000 with the Leukemia, and I understand that isn't too bad.

I knew there was no reason to lay on a hospital bed for 2 r 3 hrs, have them give me an antibiotic and send me home. So I had my son go get the antibiotic.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Sorry you are going through this, Renee. *hugs*

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Me too. My personal belief is that it is the prescriptions and antibiotics that are the problem. You can google 'pink snow,' (or anything, now : ) looks like prolly algae. Google 'Leukemia natural cures' and run from those allopaths, imo.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

shapeez, That guy is into astrology, looks like maybe Palmistry, sorry but I don't think he knows what he is talking about.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

thank you Timmy, You are sweet----sometimes.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

:haloplug

Re: Chronic Illness
 

I'll be praying for you Sis. Renee, I can only imagine how much of a struggle it is to live with a chronic illness. It sounds to me that you are doing all in your power as much as within you to live as healthy and close to the land as possible, which is wonderful.

Have you ever read Catherine Marshall's books? She has a lot of insight into this kind of thing, being that she suffered from chronic illness herself.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

well, i don't read that stuff; i think he is recalling the actual Biblical astrology of the heavens. As for the hand stuff, dunno, don't really read that either, but he makes a pretty good argument, with Scriptures, that actually seems pretty intuitive, being it's your hand maybe. i dunno. i seek for where i agree, and his revelation of a Christian's advance to Spiritual Rapport is prolly his best stuff. Paul's thorn was like a final test?

Re: Chronic Illness
 

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Lafon wrote,
Lafon, how much plainer can it be? The weakness was not in his mind, nor his spirit, it was in his FLESH. Now look at the word weakness.

Vine's Words: Disease, Diseased, Infirmity, Sick, Sickly, Sickness, Weak, Weakened, Weaker, Weakness
..
..
Usage Notes:
..
English Words used in KJV:
infirmity 17
weakness 5
disease 1
sickness 1
[Total Count: 24]
..
from <G772> (asthenes); feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty :- disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

The word “infirmities” is the same word----”as-then'-i-ah”

Lafon wrote
).

and neither am I using the word '”affliction” in Paul's case. I'm using what the Bible uses---”asthenia” which is --- “Disease, Diseased, Infirmity, Sick, Sickly, Sickness, Weak, Weakened, Weaker, Weakness”

Lafon wrote,
So you believe that if a person that is chronically ill and doesn't get healed that they are sinning and God is chastising them?
First if they are sinning, and they don't know that they are sinning, don't you think God would show them where they are sinning?
If God is chastising them, and they don't know what they are being chastised for, what good would it do?

Or are you talking about a hypocrite? One that knows that they are sinning and yet claims to be a Christian. Or one hiding their sins.

Re: Chronic Illness
 

Thank you, Kept!

I've read several of her books. I think the first, "A Man Called Peter." Is there a certain one that you have in mind?