When is prayer effective?
 

We tend to run to 'prayer' as a problem solving device; naturally enough, i would say. However, i'm currently studying under a pastor who maintains that prayer is often not what is needed, and cannot help in many situations. Thoughts?

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Would have to know more about what he thinks. Sounds suspicious, as prayer certainly was something even Jesus had to do, even the night before he died, he prayed all night. I would be very suspicious of someone who said a follower of Christ need not pray, although I don't know if that is what you are referring to. More information about his thoughts would be necessary.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Not that one should not pray, no; but that prayer is often accepted as the cure, if you will, possibly often to the detriment of faith/rest. And interesting that you mention that passage, as i think we poorly understand it; was Christ really asking God if He could take a pass on the whole Saviour thing, as it translates? I don't think so; God is the head of Christ. So, what is this prayer really saying? But this is not meant to refute always in prayer by any means, i don't think.

This teaching only comes in pieces, but i'll work up a synopsis. Meanwhile, i had hoped to get some feedback from others as to when or if prayer might be ineffective as a problem solving method; and Scripture even provides some direct quotes along these lines.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

I'm trying to think of a scripture which may suggest a circumstance where prayer would be unnecessary, inappropriate, or ineffective. I'm drawing a blank. ;)

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

I think that would be when God told someone not to pray.

Jeremiah 7:16 says, "Pray no more for these people, Jeremiah. Do not weep or pray for them, and don't beg me to help them, for I will not listen to you."

Jeremiah 11:14 says, "Pray no more for these people, Jeremiah. Do not weep or pray for them, for I will not listen to them when they cry out to me in distress."

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

yup, that's 2 (or maybe one reiterated?); there's another at the end of 1Sam8, and some others; but, having absorbed this concept over the last 2 years or so, i have to say that i am now getting more from reading between the lines of Christ's prayer, above, et al.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

ah, ok, just found Larry Wood's study on this. His model is somewhat unique, and has some unique, although generally intuitive, terminology.

http://www.biblenews1.com/grace/gracea.htm#Problem Solving Device

either add "...Solving Device" back into the link, or just scroll about 90% down the page.

i will say that i am 'spoiling' this, due to the higher maturity level of most Christians here; so i hope that too much of the impact is not lost. If you wonder why prayer does not seem to be effective in a situation, this may provide some answers.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

It depends.

If someone says "prayer works", I would counter with the following:

"No it doesn't. God works".

If someone says "prayer changes things", I would counter with the following:

"No it doesn't. God changes things".

If someone says "prayer is powerful", I would counter with the following:

"No it isn't. God is powerful".

See the difference?

The first is, perhaps subconsciously, putting faith in the act one undertakes to reach God. The second is a conscious realization that the act one undertakes to reach God is the means whereby God (and not prayer) can do many wonderful, even amazing things.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Additionally, I've had many people come to me and ask for counsel and advice. At some point they usually say the following:

"I've prayed about it..."

To which I reply, "That's good, but now what?"

They get a little confused, and so I explain.

God is a practical God. He's not going to do for you the things He fully expects you to do yourself. He's not a Sugar Daddy. He doesn't make decisions for you, and He cannot act for you on your behalf if and when you have a mind to think, say, or do some X, Y, or Z.

The Word already reveals what it takes to please Him. Obedience is on you.

The best example I can give is:

When a person is tempted, and they have prayed, this is well and good. But then what?

God is not going to stop you from giving in. You, (with His help, of course) must resist the urges of your flesh to do the wrong thing.

If you intend to give in, and so, do give in, all the previously offered prayer in the world ain't gonna save you. And in that instance, neither is God.

Another example:

A person prays "God, I need a job. Please supply. I believe you can do it!"

A good prayer.

But where are the legs?

That same person won't check the help wanted ads, doesn't look in the windows of various local businesses for signs saying "Now Hiring", doesn't prepare or tweak their resume, won't do a job search online, doesn't ask around through their network, and just sits at home pining away.

That person is probably NEVER going to get a job from God.

I suppose a random phone call from out of the blue could happen. I'm sure it has. But banking on a $100 bills from heaven type miracle when you've got a back, hands, feet, and a brain to earn an income for yourself is a pretty much dead end way of supporting yourself.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Timmy,
This is not true.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

i have to agree; but it is why i started this thread. But what is 'believe' here? Interestingly, to me, one of the few of Christ's prayers that we are privy to might be considered a 'failed' prayer. So, what are you asking for?

i am only just grasping this better after a couple of years of study; i liked how the 'problem solving devices' are all related to the temple.

i am noting that physics has recently removed the bounds we previously put on it in this area, also; and, this type of 'prayer' (of belief) strangely seems to work for anyone, whether we might judge them 'saved' or 'lost.'

Very nice, VotiveSoul :D

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

I would have worded things differently than whoever made it did. But it seems that there are a lot of conditions, beyond just believing and asking. This has proven true many, many times, has it not? Just about everyone here would admit that they have often asked for something and believed it would happen, but it didn't.

Some other conditions are named elsewhere in the Bible. 1 John 5:14-15 says God will do anything you ask, if it is "according to his will". I.e., if it is something he wants to do. James says the effectual fervent prayer availeth much. In other words, an effective prayer is effective. Prayer didn't work? Then it wasn't effective. Booyah!

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

yes, we all experience this. there is a solid reason, that may be discovered. many 'successful,' 'lost' people use this principle every day in their lives.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

I suspect that main thing you object to is that part about it being physically possible, and it could happen anyway. The point the meme-maker was making, of course, is that in his observation, things people pray for that actually do happen would have (or at least could have) happened anyway. In his observation. And that has been my observation, too.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

mine, too, which is why i set out on this path. as strange as this advice might sound, i recommend learning the 'prayer of faith' like a secular, 'successful' type. i don't mean the things prayed for, but the method. what is their secret, that most--i'll say--Christians fail to grasp?

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

"The furniture of the Holy Place illustrated God's grace provision for executing the spiritual life after salvation. The second entrance of the Tabernacle was another unique entrance, the only one into the Holy Place. Clearly marked with the Blue, Purple, Scarlet, and Fine Linen, it revealed the second most important decision in life. First was Salvation by Grace and second was Grace Orientation for the spiritual life. The illustration was a believer feasting on the Word, walking in the Light, and praying to his Heavenly Father."


from the link, might be considered a hopeful culmination of this thread.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Still have shazeep on my ignore list, but let me guess: he says it's "yack" to expect God to do whatever you ask him to. Close?

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

if we ask like a (relative) 3 year old, as we are taught--or absorb--in most churches (imo), yes.
But strangely, not as if we ask like a secular, 'successful' person. hmm.
i think this speaks to one's understanding of 'believe.'

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16..Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17..Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are. And he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and it rained not on the earth for the space of three years and six months.
18..And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth brought forth her fruit.

2 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
7..casting all your cares upon Him, for He careth for you.
8..Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
9..Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren who are in the world.

Philippians 4:6 Fret not about anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God.
7..And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Romans 12:10..Have kindly affection one for another with brotherly love, in honor preferring one another;
11..not slothful in business; fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12..rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing instant in prayer;
13..distributing to the necessity of saints, given to hospitality.

Ephesians 6:8..praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
19..And pray for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the Gospel,
20..for which I am an ambassador in bonds, that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

1 Thessalonians 5:15..See that none render evil for evil unto any man, but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves and with all men.
16..Rejoice evermore.
17..Pray without ceasing.
18..In every thing give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19..Quench not the Spirit.
20..Despise not prophesyings.
21..Test all things; hold fast to that which is good.
22..Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23..And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24..Faithful is He that calleth you; He also will do it.
25..Brethren, pray for us.

Matthew 26:41..Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Luke 21:34..“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness and cares of this life, and so that Day come upon you unawares.
35..For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36..Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Colossians 4:2 Continue in prayer and watch therein with thanksgiving,
3..besides praying also for us that God would open unto us a door of utterance to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds,
4..that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

Prayer is communication with God, we need the council from the Creator, we need guidance, we need grace, we need mercy, we need protection, we need life, we need conviction, we need compassion, we need wisdom, understanding, knowledge, we need the fear of the LORD. Prayer is vital, in prayer we express our need for a Saviour we express the need for change, deliverance and salvation. Let us also be aware of self righteous prayers, Jesus warned his disciples not to do as the Pharisees one deed they did that Jesus warns us is making long prayers for a pretense, outwardly they appeared righteous but their motives, and intentions were to receive the praise of men.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

greek word for prayer

4336 proseúxomai (from 4314 /prós, "towards, exchange" and 2172/euxomai, "to wish, pray") – properly, to exchange wishes; pray – literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith ("divine persuasion"). Accordingly, praying (4336/proseuxomai) is closely inter-connected with 4102 /pístis ("faith") in the NT.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

nice. that often seems to translate as God as santa claus, however. I thought an in-depth examination of the other 'problem solving devices'--which are after all just the fruit of the Spirit restated i think--and how they related to the sanctuary, was pretty cool.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Ah yes, as well as 1Jn 5:16. These would be exceptions, though, wouldn't they?

I was thinking along the lines of the premise in the opening post, that:

(emphasis mine)

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Yep, you're right about that!

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

yes. i guess some thought should be given to 'prayer for others' v 'prayers for self' at some point; wherein i find none, or virtually none, of the second! And yet we are often directed to 'take it to God in prayer!' (for personal issues)

now, i'm not implying to stop being always in prayer, but that it will not help you with your problems, almost surely.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

I believe that if one is sensitive to the leading of the Spirit, prayer can allow one to be the conduit of divine power in a given circumstance. Prayer can also center us and align us with God's will.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

well, i have to agree. this was not meant to denigrate prayer, but to examine it in the light of the other problem solving devices provided for by God's will for us. i think that, unconsciously or not, we are often led to pray for the removal of something, perhaps, when it was God Who maybe put it there, or at least allowed it.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

I saw this on my mom's wall today (it's been there for years, but took on new meaning in regards to this post)

1 Chronicles 4:10,

This prayer was effective.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Why do we think God didn't hear our prayers unless we get the answer we want?

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I see it this way. We pray for cake, and God gives us flower and eggs. We sometimes gotta do some of the work.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

Please don't ever make cake. Just let God give it to you. LOL!

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I don't. I'm better at pasta based foods lol (I don't make my own noodles of course lol)

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

God gave you flour and eggs? Hey, that's pretty cool! :lol

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

that was a cool analogy, imo.

Re: When is prayer effective?
 

bump by request