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bjhs08 04-20-2014 05:35 PM
Oneness Questions
 
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"

2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.

Disciple4life 04-20-2014 06:22 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Hello, I am so glad you found this forum!

I can not say that I am an expert or that I can give you the text book answers, but I will try to help out.

1. When Jesus was being baptized God showed himself in three ways. On the cross Jesus (the man) spoke to his Father (his divinity). When Jesus returned to Heaven him and his Father both sat down in his Father's throne. Rev. 3:21 There is one throne in Heaven. Rev. 4:2. When you get to Heaven you will only see one God sitting in one throne.

2. So what about the phrase on the right hand of God?

LU 22:69 the Son of Man sitting on the RIGHT HAND of the power of God.`

AC 2:33 at the RIGHT HAND then of God having been exalted

Jesus is sitting down in the one throne in Heaven in power and authority because he has been exalted.

Sitting at the right hand is a first century Jewish saying. If I told somebody it was raining cats and dogs they would not understand what I meant if they were not from my time and culture. Sitting at someone's right hand simply means that you have their power and authority.

Hope this helps. :highfive

If I got anything wrong as far as saying it backwards, anybody else can chime in and say it in a more clear way.

Disciple4life 04-20-2014 06:28 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
By the way I grew up in the Assembly of God. It took me awhile to understand.
It is perfectly fine if you don't get it instantaneously.
It took me about six months.

Anyway God Bless.

jfrog 04-20-2014 09:29 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple4life (Post 1309333)
Hello, I am so glad you found this forum!

I can not say that I am an expert or that I can give you the text book answers, but I will try to help out.

1. When Jesus was being baptized God showed himself in three ways. On the cross Jesus (the man) spoke to his Father (his divinity). When Jesus returned to Heaven him and his Father both sat down in his Father's throne. Rev. 3:21 There is one throne in Heaven. Rev. 4:2. When you get to Heaven you will only see one God sitting in one throne.

2. So what about the phrase on the right hand of God?

LU 22:69 the Son of Man sitting on the RIGHT HAND of the power of God.`

AC 2:33 at the RIGHT HAND then of God having been exalted

Jesus is sitting down in the one throne in Heaven in power and authority because he has been exalted.

Sitting at the right hand is a first century Jewish saying. If I told somebody it was raining cats and dogs they would not understand what I meant if they were not from my time and culture. Sitting at someone's right hand simply means that you have their power and authority.

Hope this helps. :highfive

If I got anything wrong as far as saying it backwards, anybody else can chime in and say it in a more clear way.
Thank you for saying what the learned here dare not, that todays mainstream oneness teaches that the man/flesh/"human natute" spoke to divinity/"divine nature". I applaud you sir!

Disciple4life 04-20-2014 09:39 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
No need to applaud me Jfrog. I was raised Assembly of God and had to study for a long time to figure everything out. One thing I am certain is that the early Oneness Pentecostals (Goss and Urshan) were not scared to use any terminology to teach about their new understanding of the Godhead.

I think it was Goss who said we believe in the real tri-unity. Wow you would not hear that nowadays. Do I believe in one God? Sure with all my heart, but I also think we should be able to explain most things in a simple manner. :highfive

Let the scripture wars begin!!! Ha Ha Ha!!! :smack

Jermyn Davidson 04-20-2014 10:07 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjhs08 (Post 1309330)
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"

2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.
Which aspect of the Oneness doctrine is drawing you?

Which aspects of your current doctrine do you find to be lacking or incomplete?

Do you actually know any Oneness Pentecostals in your local area?

jfrog 04-20-2014 10:10 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple4life (Post 1309341)
No need to applaud me Jfrog. I was raised Assembly of God and had to study for a long time to figure everything out. One thing I am certain is that the early Oneness Pentecostals (Goss and Urshan) were not scared to use any terminology to teach about their new understanding of the Godhead.

I think it was Goss who said we believe in the real tri-unity. Wow you would not hear that nowadays. Do I believe in one God? Sure with all my heart, but I also think we should be able to explain most things in a simple manner. :highfive

Let the scripture wars begin!!! Ha Ha Ha!!! :smack
1. Natures don't pray or do anything for that matter. Persons do things. Persons are the "Actors (those who perform actions)" in our world. A nature just defines what kind of "Actor (which set of actions a particular actor can perform)" we are discussing. If I say a person with a human nature what I really mean is a person that can perform human actions.

So when you say Jesus in his human nature prayed to his divine nature, you still have the person Jesus praying to himself. Perhaps what you really mean when you said human nature prayed to divine nature is that it's perfectly okay for a single person with 2 distinct natures to pray to himself. This just doesn't sound as good because when you say the human nature prayed to the divine nature it sounds like you are denying the fact that your Jesus prays to himself. But, in oneness view he must pray to himself and there's nothing inherently wrong about that since Jesus is a very unique person having 2 distinct natures.

Hoovie 04-20-2014 10:48 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjhs08 (Post 1309330)
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"

2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.
Bjhs, Oneness understands Jesus to be God in and through the incarnation, while the Father is that same God beyond the incarnation. So it's more than God and Jesus being "one"... Jesus actually IS God.

When Jesus prayed he did so as one who willingly submitted and willingly accepted temporal humanity. Not so much "Persons" praying - particularly not persons as beings, but simply the Messiah (who was God & man) praying to God beyond the incarnation.

Being seated at the right hand of the Father... I think manyTrinitarians would agree that we are not talking about 2 beings here... He was seated in a position of "Authority".

Aquila 04-21-2014 06:22 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjhs08 (Post 1309330)
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"
Jesus was both fully man and absolutely God existing as one. Therefore, the man Christ Jesus prays to the Father, yet He is also the Father... the human tabernacle of the Father. Oneness.

Quote:
2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.
There are different opinions regarding this among Oneness believers. Personally, I believe that the glorified man, Jesus Christ (the Son of God), is indeed seated at the right hand of the Father's glory in Heaven.

Remember, Oneness theology is easy to grasp if one keeps in mind that, in our theological framework, Jesus is both God and man. The man Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is also God almighty. Oneness.

Sean 04-21-2014 04:08 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjhs08 (Post 1309330)
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"

2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.





I was part of the general debate thread,... "the man Christ Jesus"... I went into great detail to explain the oneness teaching...you may want to see my arguments there to save time.

Luke 04-22-2014 07:38 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1309344)
1. Natures don't pray or do anything for that matter. Persons do things. Persons are the "Actors (those who perform actions)" in our world. A nature just defines what kind of "Actor (which set of actions a particular actor can perform)" we are discussing. If I say a person with a human nature what I really mean is a person that can perform human actions.

So when you say Jesus in his human nature prayed to his divine nature, you still have the person Jesus praying to himself. Perhaps what you really mean when you said human nature prayed to divine nature is that it's perfectly okay for a single person with 2 distinct natures to pray to himself. This just doesn't sound as good because when you say the human nature prayed to the divine nature it sounds like you are denying the fact that your Jesus prays to himself. But, in oneness view he must pray to himself and there's nothing inherently wrong about that since Jesus is a very unique person having 2 distinct natures.
Jfrog are you oneness or trinitarian?

Light 04-22-2014 08:49 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple4life (Post 1309333)



On the cross Jesus (the man) spoke to his Father (his divinity) .

1Co 15:27    For he (God)hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him, (Jesus) it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.(Jesus)

The man Jesus was praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Ferd 04-22-2014 11:36 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke (Post 1309531)
Jfrog are you oneness or trinitarian?
LOL. Anti would be a better discription.... just say'n

jfrog 04-22-2014 05:46 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 1309567)
LOL. Anti would be a better discription.... just say'n
Lol. I think ferd has me pegged...

jfrog 04-22-2014 05:47 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 1309545)
1Co 15:27    For he (God)hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him, (Jesus) it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.(Jesus)

The man Jesus was praying to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
So Jesus is not god?

Praxeas 04-22-2014 06:11 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjhs08 (Post 1309330)
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"
Jesus was speaking to the Father. Jesus could not feel forsaken by God without first having become one of us, having human feelings and a human psyche

Second, as to whether or not he was really forsaken, I don't believe so. I believe he FELT that way. One needs to understand that Jesus was quoting David verbatim. Why? Was David forsaken?

Some thoughts. David was not forsaken by God. God said "I will never leave nor forsake you"

David felt forsaken because his own son and his own people in large rejected him and persecuted him. Im sure Jesus repeating these words were not lost on those Jewish hearers

Quote:
2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help
Oneness teaches Father and Son are distinct in many ways, just not as Persons. They are distinct in how they exist and function. One can even say they are distinct beings in that Jesus has a complete Human nature

Having said that, the "right hand" verses are figurative language that refers to having power or favor, not a literal right hand

Praxeas 04-22-2014 06:17 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1309340)
Thank you for saying what the learned here dare not, that todays mainstream oneness teaches that the man/flesh/"human natute" spoke to divinity/"divine nature". I applaud you sir!
His nature did nothing, however His nature affects what he does or can do as it does you and I

Light 04-23-2014 06:54 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1309605)
So Jesus is not god?
The majority of those who call them self oneness are really Jesus only.

If Jesus is the Father (God ) why does he tell us he is the mediator between man and God.

Why did he tell us No man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him.

If Jesus is the Father (God) then he raised himself from the dead.

The apostles did not preach Jesus only.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached a message that quickened the hearts of those that heard it. That same message was then preached throughout the book of acts. That message was man killed Jesus and God raised him from the dead.
The same message was preached by Paul.

1Co 15:27    For he (God)hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him, (Jesus ) it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.(Jesus)
1Co 15:28    And when all things shall be subdued unto him,(God) then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him,(Jesus ) that God may be all in all.

Sean 04-23-2014 08:12 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 1309641)
The majority of those who call them self oneness are really Jesus only.

If Jesus is the Father (God ) why does he tell us he is the mediator between man and God.






(there is one mediator between God and man, the man(HUMAN BEING) Christ Jesus. the mediation came with the shed blood of Christ).







Why did he tell us No man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him.






(Because Jesus was totally human and the Father would have to draw mankind to His begotten (human) son. Jesus had NO personal power to do it himself.)






If Jesus is the Father (God) then he raised himself from the dead.







(When Jesus said "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father in John 14, he went on to clarify his statement that "THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME". Simply put, The Father was "INSIDE" the begotten(human) son. He was the "visible image"(embodiment) of the invisible Father. GOD WAS IN CHRIST, 2 Cor. 5:19)






The apostles did not preach Jesus only.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached a message that quickened the hearts of those that heard it. That same message was then preached throughout the book of acts. That message was man killed Jesus and God raised him from the dead.
The same message was preached by Paul.

1Co 15:27    For he (God)hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him, (Jesus ) it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.(Jesus)
1Co 15:28    And when all things shall be subdued unto him,(God) then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him,(Jesus ) that God may be all in all.






(The universal message of the gospel was not God and Jesus, But GOD IN JESUS...That is oneness...GOD (IN) JESUS)

Light 04-23-2014 09:06 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309646)
(The universal message of the gospel was not God and Jesus, But GOD IN JESUS...That is oneness...GOD (IN) JESUS)
The spirit of God was and is not in Jesus just as it is not ( in ) you or me. The Spirit of God came upon Jesus just as it comes to those that obey his word.

Luk 1:35    And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 3:22    And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Joh 1:33    And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 1:34    And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.


Mat 12:17    That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18    Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Act 2:3    And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Please answer Pauls teaching.
1Co 15:24   
Then cometh the end when he (Jesus)shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25    For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his (Jesus) feet.

1Co 15:26    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


1Co 15:27    For he (God)hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him, (Jesus ) it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him.(Jesus)

1Co 15:28    And when all things shall be subdued unto him,(God) then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him,(Jesus ) that God may be all in all.

Praxeas 04-24-2014 01:27 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309646)
(The universal message of the gospel was not God and Jesus, But GOD IN JESUS...That is oneness...GOD (IN) JESUS)
So Jesus isn't God? God was just inside Jesus? Sounds like "God and Jesus" with "God inside him"

Luke 04-24-2014 07:27 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
I Have never understood how anyone can deny the diety of Jesus in light of the Bible. If He was not God and man then what was He?

Ferd 04-24-2014 07:52 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Is 9:6

Sean 04-24-2014 08:11 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Luke, weve been through this already..our threads on "the man Christ Jesus", show what I believe.

Jesus was "completely" human with his own body, soul and human spirit. Just like us. A "qualified human being. No "add ons".

He never claimed to be God, but the Holy Ghost "inside" him(or the Father), definitely claimed to be God. He was simply a "begotten"(human) son of almighty God. And God(Father) was in his body. The Father was (in) him and spoke (through) him and did miracles (through) him.


The Father(God) raised Jesus from the dead. And the fullness of the Godhead(all of what God consists of) now dwells in him BODILY(glorified-OMNIPRESENT BODY)...ALL OF GOD IS INSIDE OF JESUS...Jesus is not in the Godhead, but the Godhead is "INSIDE" JESUS (BODILY)(thats how Jesus is omnipresent now),Col.2:9...

.NOW THAT IS NOT "DENYING" the DEITY of JESUS.in any way, shape or form. It makes Jesus "ALL" God, not just a "part"(co-equal partner) of a trinitarian godhead.


His body was shredded, his soul and human spirit went back to God, just like ours does when we die. He is the "image" of the invisible God(Father). God is something "tangible" for us now. not just a invisible Spirit. He has given us an Image to worship that we can understand.(GOD INSIDE CHRIST) I do not know what happened to his soul or human spirit after he died or what happens to ours for that matter.

I dread starting that full length discussion all over again on this thread, but would try to clarify any thing I can in short form if you like...

Light 04-24-2014 08:25 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 1309786)
Is 9:6
Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy that is not fulfilled, it is only partly fulfilled just as many others in Isaiah.

Isa 9:6    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given (Fulfilled)

and the government shall be upon his shoulder (not fulfilled)
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(not fulfilled)

Isaiah 9:6 will be completely fulfilled when 1Co 15:24-28 is fulfilled.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Luke 04-24-2014 10:04 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
Luke, weve been through this already..our threads on "the man Christ Jesus", show what I believe.

Jesus was "completely" human with his own body, soul and human spirit. Just like us. A "qualified human being. No "add ons".
I know that we have discussed this but nowhere in scripture does it ever even allude to the concept that jesus was not God. In fact the bible specificly calls Jesus God mutiple times. To say that jesus was anything less than God does not make biblical sense imo.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
[B]He never claimed to be God, but the Holy Ghost "inside" him(or the Father), definitely claimed to be God.[/B He was simply a "begotten"(human) son of almighty God. And God(Father) was in his body. The Father was (in) him and spoke (through) him and did miracles (through) him.
How can you distinguish between when it is Jesus the man and when God the Father speaks if the scripture does specify it? In other words the times that i would point to as Jesus claiming to be God you would say that no this was God the Father speaking instead of Jesus but how do you come to this point unless it is to fit your belief? Also your definition of simply and my definiton of simply are two verey different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
The Father(God) raised Jesus from the dead. And the fullness of the Godhead(all of what God consists of) now dwells in him BODILY(glorified-OMNIPRESENT BODY)...ALL OF GOD IS INSIDE OF JESUS...Jesus is not in the Godhead, but the Godhead is "INSIDE" JESUS (BODILY)(thats how Jesus is omnipresent now),Col.2:9...
You are saying that still yet Jesus is not God but rather the place where God resides.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
.NOW THAT IS NOT "DENYING" the DEITY of JESUS.in any way, shape or form. It makes Jesus "ALL" God, not just a "part"(co-equal partner) of a trinitarian godhead.
Yes you are denying the Diety of Jesus and you would have to if you believe that He was simply man while on earth unles you agree with mormons who believe that man can become God. If jesus ever was not God then He never can become God. Unless you are willing to answer the question as to how a human BECOMES GOD?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
His body was shredded, his soul and human spirit went back to God, just like ours does when we die. He is the "image" of the invisible God(Father). God is something "tangible" for us now. not just a invisible Spirit. He has given us an Image to worship that we can understand.(GOD INSIDE CHRIST) I do not know what happened to his soul or human spirit after he died or what happens to ours for that matter.
He physicaly raised from the dead in the same body he had before His crucifixion just as we will. The only difference between His body before and after the ressurection being that now He has a glorified body as we will also have. It is ineresting to note that the old testament prophesied that when the jews behold Jesus again His they will ask where He recieved the scars upon Him which seems to imply that he still bears the marks of His crucifixion therewfore how can you say that His body was shredded or in any way doen away with? Not knowing what happened to His spirit is a problem because to say that He was simply man like us then He died and is now the place where God resides brings uo two major problems that you never answered:

1: In heaven there will be two of Jesus. One that is the place where all of God resides. The other will be the man resurected at the end along with the rest of us.

2: If you reject the first veiw then you are left with the belief that God destroyed the only perfect man who has ever lived entirerly except for His bodily shell.

Which do you hold to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
I dread starting that full length discussion all over again on this thread, but would try to clarify any thing I can in short form if you like...

Ferd 04-24-2014 11:17 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 1309791)
Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy that is not fulfilled, it is only partly fulfilled just as many others in Isaiah.

Isa 9:6    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given (Fulfilled)

and the government shall be upon his shoulder (not fulfilled)
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(not fulfilled)

Isaiah 9:6 will be completely fulfilled when 1Co 15:24-28 is fulfilled.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Light I love you man, but wheither or not all of Is 9:6 is fullfilled, there is no question that Isaiah states here that the Massiah will be called both the Prince of Peace and the Ever Lasting Father.

I could go into a nice long disertation on Councellor and Comforter etc but that would be long and boring and wear most folk out.

Bottom line I believe in ONE God, just the same as the prophet in question here did.

Light 04-24-2014 12:26 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 1309816)
Light I love you man, but wheither or not all of Is 9:6 is fullfilled, there is no question that Isaiah states here that the Massiah will be called both the Prince of Peace and the Ever Lasting Father.

I could go into a nice long disertation on Councellor and Comforter etc but that would be long and boring and wear most folk out.

Bottom line I believe in ONE God, just the same as the prophet in question here did.
I also believe in ONE GOD,just not the Jesus only doctrine .
Ferd please explain Paul's letter that all things we're put under Jesus except God.

Ferd 04-24-2014 03:03 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 1309826)
I also believe in ONE GOD,just not the Jesus only doctrine .
Ferd please explain Paul's letter that all things we're put under Jesus except God.
This is not a subject im going to get into a long drown out debate over. Pauls letter is best understood with the following words.

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One LORD

(by the way, those were the very first words by boys heard when they were born. The very first words I spoke to them in the delivery room, when they handed them to me were "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. And thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your strength and him only shalt thou serve"

chokes me up just remembering it. I do not doubt your faith. I certainly do not complicate God.

There is one. He took on human form....God was manifest in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

IlovemesomeJesus!

Sean 04-24-2014 03:40 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke (Post 1309808)
i know that we have discussed this but nowhere in scripture does it ever even allude to the concept that jesus was not god. In fact the bible specificly calls jesus god mutiple times. To say that jesus was anything less than god does not make biblical sense imo.





Hey bro, you are asking the same questions that we discussed over there. I answered them all...Jesus was a man and God(the father) was in him in the form of the Holy Ghost(luke 4:1)

lets try this one: If you were born of a virgin by the power of God, and you had the power of God residing in you in the fullness that Jesus had(witnessing the miracles,signs and wonders that Jesus did), and I saw you die to fulfill o.t. Scriptures and resurrect in a glorified body claiming "all power is given unto me in heaven and earth", you would be my God. I would not have to ask you,,,,show me God?. Before he died, Phillip said."show me(us) the Father(God). They wanted to see God. They did not know that the Father was right there in front of them...(inside of Jesus)....they did not realize he would be their God till after the resurrection. ( they just saw him as the messiah, prophet, son of God,) ...that is when Thomas first fell down and said..."my Lord and my God"...after the resurrection.

I believe Jesus is God. He was not born a baby/god. He was a man. God is not a man. His "destiny" was to become "our" God. He passed the test(with the help of the Holy Ghost inside him). He is our God.









How can you distinguish between when it is jesus the man and when god the father speaks if the scripture does specify it? In other words the times that i would point to as jesus claiming to be god you would say that no this was god the father speaking instead of jesus but how do you come to this point unless it is to fit your belief? Also your definition of simply and my definiton of simply are two verey different things.





When the father speaks, it is written in blue letters...lol,

no really, when Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM".....that was the Father.
When Jesus said..."I thirst"...that was Jesus.







You are saying that still yet jesus is not god but rather the place where god resides.





No Luke, God is "inside" him. As big as God is, is now how big Jesus is.(omnipresent)







Yes you are denying the diety of jesus and you would have to if you believe that he was simply man while on earth unles you agree with mormons who believe that man can become god. If jesus ever was not god then he never can become god. Unless you are willing to answer the question as to how a human becomes god?







Simple, his body is literally destroyed by his fellow humans, his soul and spirit go back to God and God resurrects him from the dead, gives him a glorified body and chooses to dwell in him in His fullness.
You must really think that is impossible to God(what i just described)
thats why you try the mormon ploy. (the readers are smarter than you think)







he physicaly raised from the dead in the same body he had before his crucifixion just as we will. The only difference between his body before and after the ressurection being that now he has a glorified body as we will also have. It is ineresting to note that the old testament prophesied that when the jews behold jesus again his they will ask where he recieved the scars upon him which seems to imply that he still bears the marks of his crucifixion therewfore how can you say that his body was shredded or in any way doen away with? Not knowing what happened to his spirit is a problem because to say that he was simply man like us then he died and is now the place where god resides brings uo two major problems that you never answered:






It is only a problem to those that believe in more than one divine being...it would bug me too.








1: In heaven there will be two of jesus. One that is the place where all of god resides. The other will be the man resurected at the end along with the rest of us.

2: If you reject the first veiw then you are left with the belief that god destroyed the only perfect man who has ever lived entirerly except for his bodily shell.






Thats the part that I have no idea...what happens to the soul and spirit. Jesus like us, had both...why dont you tell me what happened to Jesus' soul and human spirit?... I really would like to know....that part of ingredients of the human being is left out for conjecture. (maybe his soul and human spirit are essentially part of his new body and all parts are omnipresent), ( maybe our soul and spirit will just get a new body) but we wont be God or omnipresent.


That part is only my speculation.







Which do you hold to?
anyone else got any ideas?

Praxeas 04-24-2014 04:09 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309788)
Luke, weve been through this already..our threads on "the man Christ Jesus", show what I believe.

Jesus was "completely" human with his own body, soul and human spirit. Just like us. A "qualified human being. No "add ons".

He never claimed to be God, but the Holy Ghost "inside" him(or the Father), definitely claimed to be God. He was simply a "begotten"(human) son of almighty God. And God(Father) was in his body. The Father was (in) him and spoke (through) him and did miracles (through) him.


The Father(God) raised Jesus from the dead. And the fullness of the Godhead(all of what God consists of) now dwells in him BODILY(glorified-OMNIPRESENT BODY)...ALL OF GOD IS INSIDE OF JESUS...Jesus is not in the Godhead, but the Godhead is "INSIDE" JESUS (BODILY)(thats how Jesus is omnipresent now),Col.2:9...

.NOW THAT IS NOT "DENYING" the DEITY of JESUS.in any way, shape or form. It makes Jesus "ALL" God, not just a "part"(co-equal partner) of a trinitarian godhead.
Wait..he never claimed to be God, but he was God? Im confused.

if God is inside Jesus, how can Jesus be God? If I am in my car, am I my car?

It sounds like you have two Persons. One is God and the other is not but has that first one inside of him but somehow having that first one inside of him makes the second one God too?

Praxeas 04-24-2014 04:10 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 1309791)
Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy that is not fulfilled, it is only partly fulfilled just as many others in Isaiah.


and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(not fulfilled)

.
Please explain why you believe that is not fulfilled

Praxeas 04-24-2014 04:11 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 1309826)
I also believe in ONE GOD,just not the Jesus only doctrine .
Ferd please explain Paul's letter that all things we're put under Jesus except God.
What is Jesus only doctrine?

Luke 04-24-2014 04:31 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309857)
Hey bro, you are asking the same questions that we discussed over there. I answered them all...Jesus was a man and God(the father) was in him in the form of the Holy Ghost(luke 4:1)

lets try this one: If you were born of a virgin by the power of God, and you had the power of God residing in you in the fullness that Jesus had(witnessing the miracles,signs and wonders that Jesus did), and I saw you die to fulfill o.t. Scriptures and resurrect in a glorified body claiming "all power is given unto me in heaven and earth", you would be my God. I would not have to ask you,,,,show me God?. Before he died, Phillip said."show me(us) the Father(God). They wanted to see God. They did not know that the Father was right there in front of them...(inside of Jesus)....they did not realize he would be their God till after the resurrection. ( they just saw him as the messiah, prophet, son of God,) ...that is when Thomas first fell down and said..."my Lord and my God"...after the resurrection.

I believe Jesus is God. He was not born a baby/god. He was a man. God is not a man. His "destiny" was to become "our" God. He passed the test(with the help of the Holy Ghost inside him). He is our God.
Do you believe that man can become God?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309857)
When the father speaks, it is written in blue letters...lol,

no really, when Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM".....that was the Father.
When Jesus said..."I thirst"...that was Jesus.
Where does it ever specify this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309857)
No Luke, God is "inside" him. As big as God is, is now how big Jesus is.(omnipresent)
You are still saying that Jesus is not God but rather place where God dwells.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309857)
Simple, his body is literally destroyed by his fellow humans, his soul and spirit go back to God and God resurrects him from the dead, gives him a glorified body and chooses to dwell in him in His fullness.
You must really think that is impossible to God(what i just described)
thats why you try the mormon ploy. (the readers are smarter than you think)
I think it did not happen because it nowhere says it did in scripture. I made mention of mormons because they also believe that man can become God. Which is what you are saying.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1309857)
Thats the part that I have no idea...what happens to the soul and spirit. Jesus like us, had both...why dont you tell me what happened to Jesus' soul and human spirit?... I really would like to know....that part of ingredients of the human being is left out for conjecture. (maybe his soul and human spirit are essentially part of his new body and all parts are omnipresent), ( maybe our soul and spirit will just get a new body) but we wont be God or omnipresent.
He retains His spirit and soul i would assume just as we will (depending on your view of man as a dicotmy or a tricotomy) He is still the God Man.

Why according to your view did He become God and yet we wil not? We are said to be the place where God resides and we are to gewt a new glorified body so why not us?

Sean 04-24-2014 04:56 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1309863)
Wait..he never claimed to be God, but he was God? Im confused.

if God is inside Jesus, how can Jesus be God? If I am in my car, am I my car?

It sounds like you have two Persons. One is God and the other is not but has that first one inside of him but somehow having that first one inside of him makes the second one God too?






I dont know if you read my other threads I referred to from a couple months ago(the man Christ Jesus).....let me try to clarify brother.


Jesus, NEVER physically pre-existed. He was the 2nd Adam(the first Adam was created from dust and was "a" son of God, the second Adam was created in the "egg" of Mary and became the "only begotten"(only conceived) son of God. They were both equally human, but made differently.


Now The Father(GOD), chose to dwell in His "only begotten" son(Jesus), unlike Adam in the garden. The first Adam sinned and the second Adam did not sin.(I believe with the help of the Holy Ghost).

Actually, the Father that was in Jesus was otherwise known as the Holy Ghost. Luke 4:1 Jesus, being a man, was FILLED with the Holy Ghost.

Jesus died and resurrected, and now is the Image of God for us to worship. God without some kind of Image, is like worshipping the wind or electricity. You can feel it but it cant be seen . God, wanting to get more "personal"(seen) with mankind , created Jesus.
2 Cor. 5:19...says... "to wit(or to understand) that GOD(FATHER) was IN(INSIDE) Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself(God or the Father)

He is inside of a glorified human body now(the body of Jesus), and all that it entails, to have real fellowship with us. He now insists on us to go through an Image(Jesus)....


Its not 2 persons, Its 1 God "inside" 1 Man(glorified Jesus)


I would say as I said above in the previous thread.... A glorified man that has been given all power(that had none of his own originally) that is called by the Creator (our image) to worship, and is "containing" the "fullness" of this Creator ...is God to me!

Sean 04-24-2014 05:23 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke (Post 1309871)
Do you believe that man can become God?





Where does it ever specify this?





Just any man right.?... nice try Luke.(mormon, mormon, mormon)







You are still saying that Jesus is not God but rather place where God dwells.







You can read my thread in detail...get your head out of the sand and read it.








I think it did not happen because it nowhere says it did in scripture. I made mention of mormons because they also believe that man can become God. Which is what you are saying.







(mormon, mormon, mormon) this is ridiculous. are you running out of ammo already?








He retains His spirit and soul i would assume just as we will (depending on your view of man as a dicotmy or a tricotomy) He is still the God Man.

Why according to your view did He become God and yet we wil not? We are said to be the place where God resides and we are to gewt a new glorified body so why not us?





Probably because Jesus was the only begotten son and we are adopted, Jesus was sinless and we are born sinners.

Michael The Disciple 04-24-2014 05:58 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1309866)
What is Jesus only doctrine?
You don't know? Or just setting him up?

Anyway I embrace the words "Jesus Only".

To me it means he is the only one who is God as opposed to two others.

Luke 04-24-2014 06:52 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Sean why are you not answering my questions instead of avoiding them?

Sean 04-24-2014 09:02 PM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke (Post 1309908)
Sean why are you not answering my questions instead of avoiding them?




Luke, sorry, I think I am good with the thread "the man Christ Jesus". It is not my problem that you believe in a triune God.

I never got any answers from you in those threads, like...

"Who was the Father of Jesus"?...The Father or the Holy Ghost. (Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost) Who can claim paternity or did Jesus have 2 fathers.....

Or is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?.....

I am weary of answering the same question over and over again. I was trying to help some newbies that I have not spoke to about my ideas. You insist on a debate and we already did one. I send anyone interested to that site. You unwittingly "helped" me express my point of view regarding the Godhead. You asked me that same mormon thing over there and I put it to rest.

You are free to ask something new, but I cannot keep saying the same thing again and again. I may have to "refer you" to the "other" thread for reminders.

And for my questions....I still silently wait...and wait...and wait....

jfrog 04-25-2014 01:07 AM
Re: Oneness Questions
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjhs08 (Post 1309330)
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and to Oneness Pentecostalism in general. I am a trinitarian pentecostal, but I have been doing alot of research on Oneness doctrine and am feeling drawn to it. However, I have a few questions for the community here. Please do not take these as an attack or challenge, but as form one seeking more information. Thanks

1) If God and Jesus are one, who was Jesus speaking to on the Cross when he said "Forgive them Father for the know not what they do.", and "My God, why have you foresaken me?"

2) What about passages that say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father?

Thank you for your help.
As you can see there is a diversity of opinions within oneness ranks


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