The Theology of Music
 

I have been thinking and searching the scripture a lot about music for the last few months. Since we no longer fellowship with the UPC I am re-establishing (or trying to) myself on the word of God and trying to get rid of all the oppressive teachings of men that I have received over the last 20 years.

OK, the Bible says very little about music, and yet is filled with music throughout, mostly for the purpose of worship, but not solely. I should start with some of the things that were crammed into my head as an adherent to the UPC:

1. Satan was the music leader in heaven and so he masterfully uses music to deceive us.
2. All music is worship, and if it is not worship to God then it is worship to something.
3. If music has a beat that makes you want to move then it is evil.
4. All syncopated music is of the devil.
5. All music that is in a minor key is of the devil.
6. If music doesn't bring the presence of God it is of the devil.
7. There is no such thing as "Christian" rock and roll. The term rock-and-roll was a '50s term for fornication and any music called by the same name is of the devil.
8. If a song doesn't mention the name of Jesus (in some form) it is not a Christian song.


There are more, but this is probably a good start. The problem is, none of these teachings are in the scripture. The Bible does not differentiate between "good" music and "bad" music, but does give a glimpse of music used for "good" (worship) and music used for "bad" (Nebuchaznezzar, at the sound of .... bow down and worship the image). So, apparently music can be used for either. We did not get the "bad" music recorded from the Babylonian King so we don't know if it was in a minor key, had a syncopated beat, or was rock style music, nor did it have words (meaning of course all classical music is evil).

A couple of things I have just picked up personally that I wanted to sun by everybody.

1. Music is another way of dialog; another way to communicate a message to another person or communicate with God. In this way, music is no different than other form of communication. We use communication to talk to God (prayer), but we do not limit communication to prayer only, we use communication for many purposes. Communication is not evil if every dialog does not have the name of Jesus in it, nor do we condemn a conversation for its tonal qualities or meter. People who teach the doctrines above tell us that music is only supposed to be worship to God because that is all we see in the scripture, but if this holds true then all communication should be about Jesus as well because all the communications in the scripture are only about God. We have to be careful what we deduct from the Word of life.

2. I can't prove this with scripture, but being a musician most of my life I can testify to the fact that people receive messages put to music in a way that dialog alone does not always produce. It seems that music enhances the ability to communicate a message. Experts in elementary education tell us that children will remember things that are put to music faster than they will things that are just taught verbally. Some say this is just a memory issue and that music triggers the memory in a way that verbal instruction does not. I think this gives us reason to sort the music we listen to by the message that it communicates. For instance, I should filter out any music that teaches or glorifies actions that are opposed to scripture, or of course songs that are openly satanic or worship of other gods.

3. And what about Christian liberty? Since I left the UPC I have tried out several types of music and several bands that I was told were evil, only to find they were not all bad, at least for me. I find also that my wife does not share my liberty with all of this music. There are some bands that are listed as "Christian" that for me bring a presence that is not the presence of God, and being an ex-satanist this is not something I want to allow in my life. Then there is other music that has a good message that does not bring a wash of the presence of God, but does not bring any other kind of presence either; it is just sort of neutral (spiritually speaking), but the message is either positive or encourages correct behavior. So, where Christian liberty is concerned, should I be able to listen to music according to my conscience? Is Romans 14:22 in effect where music is concerned?

Am I missing anything? Please, I just want Biblical thoughts and real spiritual experiences here ... if you want to bash me for my "backslidden" thinking, please consider posting in another forum.

Thanks/Pneuman

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I've always struggled with this kinda thing too. I'm a musician and have essentially given up hopes having a music career because it was drilled into us that we could only listen to and play church music. I'm past all that now, but still wonder about things such as the things you pointed out.

Music is in all culture and can be used to celebrate, mourn, tell stories, and so forth. I do believe, although i can't find it in scripture, that the israellites in the old testament must've had music and dancing outside of "church." I'm sure they didn't limit all other forms of music outside of sacred music.

Sure there are things we shouldn't listen to and places we shouldn't go, but can't we let the believer be lead by their convictions?

Also, with regards to musicians, pay, and a living, i have a few beefs. Many churches want and expect the best musicians, but are unwilling to pay for that. I understand if they simply can't afford it, but don't preach against playing for money in the world if that's their only income. Are plumbers only supposed to work on church plumbing? Are accountants only supposed to work on the church books? C'mon, let's be real. If we want professional level musicians, more than likely they listen to and study music/musicians outside of holy music. More than likely they spend many hours a week practicing their craft and probably play secular music for fun or for a living. That doesn't mean they're using their talents to glorify sin or worship satan. How are saved musicians supposed to let their light shine to the unsaved musicians?

Too many years of putting "church" in front of everything has lead to people opting out of careers where they travel, work on the occasional Sunday, work in entertainment, etc. "You shouldn't be a nurse because you'll miss too much church." "You should quit your job because they've put you on evenings and you're missing bible study." It's these kind of examples that have taken the light out of some career fields and put the damper on talented people that could be out winning souls.

BTW, i was an un-paid praise and worship leader and music minister for years. I played the occasional gig, but was made to feel guilty about it from church leadership. I attended college on a full-tuition music scholarship, but upon graduation realized that family came first and being a working musician had it's struggles. I fell out of contact with many of the guys I used to play with. I miss playing, but i'll get back into it once the kids get a little older.

I guess i'll end my rant now.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I would like to see worship like this in Oneness Churches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zen4TL2m59E

Music gets to the depths of our lives in such a way as hardly anything else.

I listen to 90% Christian music and like it that way. Before Christ I was steeped in what is now called "classic rock" and folk music. I have found Christ to fill the desires of my life and have no longing for the music I once loved.

Having said that every now and then I like hearing songs that are just great songs. Every now and then my wife and I put on some 50's doo wop and do some slow dancing.

Now if I were "driven" to listen to other music I would be concerned. Im sure you know its not just about not doing certain things but about abiding in Jesus. Making him the center of our life.

I have a playlist of songs from the 60's and 70's that got me thinking about Christ tho they were not Christian songs. I like to reconnect with that feeling sometimes.

If your life is immersed in Christ you will sense if he is displeased with something you do.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Part in bold...what UPC church did you go to???? 90% of music even in ultra-conservative UPC and WPF churches have a beat and are syncopated. In over three decades of being in the UPC in nearly a dozen church in 3 states, I've never heard 3, 4, 5, 6 or 8. I've been a worship leader and musician going on 30 years this year. I have heard 1, 2 and 7.

Well, the Bible does say whatever you do in word and deed, do all in the name of Jesus. :) It also says we will give account for every idle word spoken. Just putting that out there.

I definitely agree with this. As a parent, I have learned and read a lot about how music helps the growth and learning of a child. It's incredible what my daughter can learn through music that takes more time through simple, non-musical repetition. They say the eyes are the gateway to the soul; I say music is the gateway to the mind. We should be led by the spirit, and filter both christian and secular bands and songs through the spirit of God.

I hate most of the secular music today. Seriously. It's junk. I even tried listening to KLOVE and some other christian radio station out here and couldn't do it. I'm not against listening to the radio or secular music, but most of it today is just trash. It does nothing to edify my spirit. You're right, even some Christian music does nothing. I used to listen to Tupac and Biggie back in the day, so even "Christian" rap like Lecrae, Tedashi, and others are difficult for me to listen to.

I know it sounds cliche, but it's true. Led the spirit of God be your guide. Personally, you can listen to whatever music you want to, so long as you allow the spirit of God to guide you. Now, with others, I would be more cautious and not allow your liberty to be a stumblingblock to them.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Great music. Thanks MTD. This is real worship music IMO. Seems like when I first got into the UPC way back when,music was more worshipful than when we left, where it was just a bunch of repeating, hypnotic beats.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

n david,

The numbered items were not learned in one church, they are a compilation of teachings that I have heard from many different sources over the 20 years I was in the UPC. I can't think of one person that holds all of these. And yes, I was in a very conservative church. I don't listen to secular, or any other style of radio, I only listen to formats with which I have a portion of control (Spotify, etc.). If that scripture (judged for every idle word) applies to speech, should it equally apply to song? Should the same standard be applied to both? Again, should the same standard be applied to both where eating meats is concerned? I have no problem allowing God be my guide, but if that was all we needed then we wouldn't need the scripture. I agree we should allow God to guide us, but part of the way He does that is through teaching.

So if we assume all these things, now what? If a new convert comes to me and asks me to teach them about music, what do I teach?

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Spotify is awesome! I'm a paid subscriber so I can have it on my phone and be able to "download" playlists. I love being able to select songs and add them to playlists. It beats having to pay for a cd just to get one or two good songs. Growing up, I was criticized for listening to Carman. My youth pastor confiscated a cassette I had of Carman, Commissioned and the Christ Church Choir. Can you believe that?

It's a good question on how to apply that verse, and if it applies to more than just idle words. IMO we will be judged by everything we do, word, deed, thought...everything. That's not to say we can't enjoy ourselves and listen to music that isn't for praise and worship to God. There are a lot of times when I remember, "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O God."

Part of God being your guide and being led by the Spirit is through reading the Bible. I don't believe one is without the other. Prayer and the word are how we are led by the Spirit.

Southern Gospel, twangy, hillbilly music is of the debbil! I apologize if that's your favorite genre. :lol I have heard some ministers say that southern Gospel music was the only Godly music genre around. I couldn't tell if they were joking or serious.

IMO, music is best when used in worship to God. Nothing is more moving than a song with lyrics of worship to God, sung by people who are pouring their love out to Him.

Carman had a well-known saying I heard him say at every concert: "Garbage in, garbage out." It's true. What you fill your mind with will have an effect on your spirit.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Good grief. We should change the forum name to "Bash the UPC (and pretend you aren't)"

Re: The Theology of Music
 

just for the record, I wasn't bashing the UPC. I was just commenting on my experiences in a single church that had been part of two different organizations neither of which were UPC.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Someone once said "hymnology does what theology can't do". Music seems to reach us sometimes better than just words. Likewise music can help us express ourselves better than with words alone.

Having heard all of the above mentioned "teachings" on music I've been confused during my lifetime to watch most churches gradually move to a more rock style format. I do like contemporary music but also miss a lot of the old hymns and choruses that are no longer used.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Yes you were. If not, why even mention the false teachings you were forced to believe when you were in the UPC (that none of us UPCers were ever taught)??

See if I did not want to bash the Baptists, from where I came from, I'd never mention them in any sort of negative light...

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I think you got the wrong guy... :)

Re: The Theology of Music
 

LOL ND!

Allow me to be carnal here for just a moment:

Jake Blues: What kind of music do you play here.
Bar Owner: Both kinds, country and western!

OK, now that I have that out of my system!

I listen to and play all kinds of music. I am not really into the Southern stuff, although I like some Crabb family and a few others, and it is my wife's fave (yes she has horns and carries a pitch fork). Love doing worship, well most of it anyway, and play Bass in our worship band at church. I listen to a large variety ... some stuff that would be considered more on the christian pop cultural side (Casting Crowns, Big Daddy Weave, Jeremy Camp) and even some of the lighter stuff (Kari Jobe, Laura Story, PCD, etc), but there are times I want to rock out a little (there I go using that heathen term again) and I throw on some of the harder stuff (Fireflight, Decyfer Down, Flyleaf, Ashes Remain, Red, Nine Lashes, etc.), and have even been known to occasionally make a foray into music that is by people who claim to be Christian playing music that does not have the name of Jesus in it (these people claim to be trying to reach people for Christ but that they can't playing Christian music because they would get stigmatized, and I can clearly see that. Bands like Paramore, 12 Stones, Icon for Hire, The Letter Black, etc.).

My position is, and will always be, that church should have the best worship music in the world. My question is, however, how much time do we spend ministering to ourselves, and what would the church look like if everything we did was with a mind to reach the lost and not just to keep ourselves saved. Would our music change any if there was a chance we could see more people turn to Jesus? How does that look? Are we afraid to go there because we might lose our food on the way?

Funny story about Carmen. He was one of the first Christian musicians I heard when God saved me. The person who turned me on to him shortly after received a "revelation" that she should only listen to music put out by UPC artists. And help everyone else to the same standard. :)

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Hey Prax, not sure where I did the bashing, it wasn't intended to be a bashing session, just the UPC is the only place I knew for 20+ years and that is where I received a whole lot of bad teaching (and a whole lot of good teaching as well). Sorry if you see it as a bash session. I am sure I would have received the same from WPF, AMF, or a whole slew of other "holiness" churches, it is just the UPC is all I knew.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I think you are talking about me Praxeas. I think what you said is partially true. I can see how somebody who is still an adherent could see my initial comments as "bashing." But really, the term bashing is extremely subjective and is directly related to the feeling one gets from the dialog. Another person may see it as freeing, or for somebody like myself who has been "delivered" from the UPC (yes I said delivered) as a confirmation even. Offense is most often about the hearer. Like Jesus said in His discourse on Mt. Olivet, "and many shall be offended" .... notice he did not say and many shall offend. I have no ill will toward the UPC! Many of the people up here have treated us horribly for leaving "the fold" and they will be judged by the one who is righteous to judge ... I pray that they repent of their lies and hatred. On the otehr hand, I have good friends who are faithful to the UPC and her doctrines with whom I am good friends and even though we don't hold exactly the same position on many things, we are solid on the salvation message. I don't know where it because taboo to disagree with the requirement that disfellowhip is the only alternative for those who differ from the party line, but so it is.

Anyway, you will no doubt see this as bashing as well. Be at peace my brother! (Psalm 119:165).

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Pneuman,

You listen to bands that have electric guitars? (Gasp) AND they use amps that use distortion?!? (Double GASP) :rockband

Re: The Theology of Music
 

:faint

Re: The Theology of Music
 

And drums no less!! :/

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Bashing is not the same thing as stating your experience.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Thank you my friend!! My wagon has room for you! :)

Re: The Theology of Music
 

The part in bold relates to me as well. I was born and raised in the UPC. I left the organization almost a decade ago, though there are still UPC churches I fellowship with and Pastors, Evangelists and others in the org whom I love and respect. Unfortunately, there are a few ministers and others who treated me badly, lied and said all kinds of junk.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Depends on how the experience is stated. I agree with Pneuman, it's the reader/hearer who is either offended or not. What you call stating your experience can easily be viewed as bashing to the reader/hearer. And especially on AFF!

Re: The Theology of Music
 

:lol That bar owner must have got saved and become the preacher I was talking about earlier! :lol

I like a broad range of music, depending on what I'm doing. Classical, Country, Rock, R&B, Old School late 80s/early 90s Hip Hop, Easy Listening, Acoustic, etc. Some of my favorite secular artists are Stevie Wonder, Babyface, Michael Jackson, Run DMC, Aerosmith, Bruno Mars, Lady Antebellum, Gloriana, Josh Groban, Andrea Bocelli, Celtic Woman, etc. Favorite Christian artists are Jimmy Needham, Family Force 5, Hillsong/United/Chapel, Kari Jobe, Kutless, Planetshakers, Jason Crabb, William McDowell, Donnie McClurkin, Deluge, Israel Houghton, Fred Hammon and RFC, Eddie James, Freddy Rodriguez, Andre Crouch, Winans, Miel San Marcos, TobyMac, etc.

I agree, and I think it does.

My first concert was a Carman concert. I loved his concerts. I just read he's going on tour again this summer, and I'm hoping he's coming through AZ so I can take my wife and daughter. :)

Re: The Theology of Music
 

maybe Prax viewed me as bashing the UPC, maybe he got me confused with someone else. Either way, I never mentioned the UPC in my rant. I was sharing my experiences and my experiences do not necessarily represent the majority by any means. However, i'm sure that others have heard at least a few of the things I did mention.

I am actually surprised no one else quoted any of my comments. Maybe the church I grew up in was uniquely strict and judgmental.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I appreciated your thoughts! They mirrored a lot of things that are parallel to my original post. The reason I didn't comment further is 1) I agree with your post, and 2) when I tried I went down all kinds of rabbit trails and I want to stay as close to my original thought as possible on this thread. Be advised, however, that several of your thoughts are fodder for future threads! :)

Pneuman

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I invited a friend and co-worker to my church who came from a different Christian background.

He arrived early, during the time when our church prays before service, and someone decided to start playing Skillet over the sound system for some unknown reason.

It was very disturbing to him. His statement was "The Holy Spirit inspires peacefulness. This kind of music isn't holy" (I'm paraphrasing since this was several years back).

I took what he said to heart. I'm not against a single genre music, per se. But I am against the idea of thinking we can just do whatever we want with "our music" while demanding that the people we are trying to win to the Lord should "just deal with it".

My church lost the chance to minister to my friend and co-worker, because of the music.

Currently, I am trying to win a different co-worker, who grew up in a very conservative, hymnal only Baptist church. Getting her to come to my church and getting her past the contemporary, sometimes vapid Pentecostal music, is going to be a big challenge.

I wish it wasn't so.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

My personal stance on music (Christian or otherwise) is the following:

In order of importance (i.e. how I judge if a song is worthy of my attention/interest):

1.) Life and conduct of the artist/performer
2.) Lyrical Content
3.) Perceived inspiration/motivation behind the song
4.) Perceived feelings/emotions generated in me as I listen
5.) How distracting the song becomes (i.e. does it get stuck in my head ad nauseum?)
6.) Genre or type of music

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Uh, yes but he was the wrong guy to comment on my post to begin with lol

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I could not care less if you leave the UPC or not. It just get's old to see everyone come to an Apostolic forum and start with negative stuff about the UPC or negative stereotypes.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

For the record, I was not born and raised in any church. I attend a UPC but I don't belong to an organization, so I can't leave it. If I wanted to become a licensed preacher I could join it. As far as I am concerned, I attend a moderate local assembly that is a part of that organization.

Either way it get's old being on a forum that is supposed to be Apostolic and seeing a large majority of posts railing on about the UPC

I agree

Re: The Theology of Music
 

True. Out of the all the nations where the UPC has a presence (which is well over 100), out of the thousands and thousands of licensed and unlicensed ministers affiliated with the organization, we have barely a tip of the iceberg experience, and say it's the whole organization that says or does X, Y, and/or Z.

Even if every UPCI licensed pastor in a USA district or state says the same thing about music, or some other subject, it doesn't mean it's the UPCI that teaches or believes that about music, as a whole.

The only thing the UPCI, as a whole, does or does not believe is contained in its articles of faith, and even those are routinely ignored at the ground level, so in what real, tangible way can the "UPCI" be said to believe or teach anything?

It's just a non-living entity. It doesn't believe or teach any more than a tree, brick, or cell phone. It's the resident people who make up the organization that believe and teach. So any critique leveled must be leveled at the individual members of the organization who believe or teach X, Y, and/or Z (regarding music or some other topic).

It would be better said like this: "In my X number of years attending Y church, Pastor Phil N. Theblank taught me to believe such and such about music, but here is why I think he (and not the UPCI) is wrong..."

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Thanks for your response Votivesoul. I have a couple of comments for your consideration:

1. There are many people with many varied musical tastes and backgrounds in this world. I believe God has churches with many various tastes in music for this very purpose. Perhaps you could find another church in your area that has musical tastes that are closer to those of the people that you would like to win, unless of course you are trying to win them to your church and not just to Jesus (not meant to be an accusation, just know that this happens, sometimes without our fully knowing this is what we are doing).

2. I am not a huge skillet fan, I like some of their stuff in small doses, but I know of churches that specialize in this genre of music whose purpose it is to reach those to whom this type of music speaks (mainly the younger population). I don't believe this is wrong? Does your church have an outreach plan that includes and targets specific demographics or is it scattershot like most apostolic churches (in my experience anyway)? While we want to reach everyone, it is not always possible to please everyone, and a targeted outreach plan can help solve this issue (at least until you can get some of these people to mature enough in the Lord that they can perform their own targeted outreach).

3. I invited a friend to church several times and he ended up coming to our church dedication service (Nathaniel Wilson and Myles Young ministered, and Pastor Young sang). It was a great service, he loved the music, the preaching, the atmosphere of the presence of God, but he was deterred by the formality of our dress (he attends a non-denom church in the Portland, OR metro area, and area known for being casual). He could not get past the fact that everybody was wearing a tie, and when I said he wouldn't have to wear a tie his comment was, "I could never feel comfortable in that atmosphere." So why do we have to wear ties? We don't, there is not a shred of Bible for it, and yet we possibly turn people away who are not comfortable with this or perhaps do not have the money to dress in this fashion. On the other hand, there are people who truly believe we should put on our very best when we attend the house of God. So, to whom should we minister? Clearly it is difficult to do both.

So it is not just music, but culture that welcome or repel people. We don't always have control over that, but we should do our best to exercise control over the things we can. Like I suggested, is there another church in your area that you can point these people to? Perhaps start with a Bible study and use that time to discuss some of these issues? There may be another route you can take to get these souls to hear the rest of the story without being turned back by something as difficult to affect as culture.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I think that is a pretty good list. I had to laugh when I read number 5. I am a parent of two small children, 2 and 4 years old. I get some of the most annoying songs stuck in my head! LOL!

Re: The Theology of Music
 

I can agree with that. I try not to throw around stereotypes Praxeas, but give specific experience. I know that not all UPC churches or districts match my experience, but I think there are specific doctrines espoused by the organization itself that are damaging and where I can connect those to my experience I will give my testimony of deliverance in hopes that others will hear and question the erroneous teachings that they have received and seek their own answers through the Word of God, the final answer to all things! If something does not match the word of God, I believe it is essential to call it out, regardless of who it may offend. To claim it is unfair to connect it to a specific organization is something I have never understood.

I will do my best to be fair when I discuss the UPC or any other organization. I have no vested interest in bashing anybody for the purpose of creating some form of damage. I was saved while in the UPC and I do not disbelieve others can be saved in the UPC, even if I don't fully agree with some of their doctrinal stands.

Feel free to call me out if you feel that I am not being fair. I am not above correction, and sometimes the balance of another opinion is the best way for others to get the full picture.

Cheers!

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Just wanted to say Pneuman... I don't think you were bashing the UPC... although those who are ready to defend it, may assume that is the case. I have experienced many of the same things you did, but not just in the UPC, but also in other organizations, but the last organization we were a part of was UPC. I think that you have raised valid points about the music, again, not just in the UPC, but other organizations too.

As others have already stated, music is a medium that reaches far beyond dialogue, and penetrates the heart, mind and soul; therefore, it can be a great tool to encourage the presence of the Lord.

However, there is a fine line between music that edifies, and glorifies the Lord, and music that simply is human effort, talent, and ability on display. Not sure that it is something that you can pinpoint easily, but discussion about this subject is necessary, I believe.

Re: The Theology of Music
 

My kids are about the same age (the oldest turns 4 this July). Lots of Veggie Tales tunes swirling around the mind any given week.

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LOL! Yes, and sometimes the entire silly song countdown to keep me company! :)

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We arr the piraaaaaates that dont do anything!!!! *See what I did there? I spelled are as arrr...cause you know.....pirates* hehe

Re: The Theology of Music
 

Here is an interesting article that popped up today on my Facebook feed that addresses this same question. I think Switchfoot has a pretty good handle on raising this question to a new level.

http://faithlikes.com/2014/04/05/thi...songs-anymore/


I am interested in hearing what others think of their perspective.

pneuman