Holiness is NOT generational imitation - TF Tenny. Homeliness is NOT holiness either. Just a friendly reminder...

Re: Holinisness is not....
 

Yeah, but what's "holinisness"?

Holiness refers to the very character of God and is most readily seen in one who bares the fruit of the Spirit. Actions or lack there of which are traditionally called " holy", really are acts of righteousness. Could be a Godly righteousness or self righteousness, all depends on who your faith is in. Let's get this pot stirred.

Re: Holinisness is not....
 

But what is "holinisness"?

Re: Holinisness is not....
 

I knew you were going to post this. :heeheehee

Read the the word bro. It's a collection of books that describe the relationship between man and God, there are plenty of examples of Gods character in there. My limited understanding and vocabulary can not describe all the characteristics of God. The fruit of the Spirit are a good place to start though.

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Exactly what kind of "pot" are you trying to stir? I'll bite just for fun.

Are you trying to say that the lack of make up and other such things equals "homeliness"?

Having fun stirring the pot of different perspectives we have on this forum.
Lack of make up or other such things do not make one homely anymore than it makes one holy.

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I agree with you! :thumbsup

Now... If we could only get all the classic Pentecostals to agree with us...

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Holiness is "Christlikeness". Allowing the Spirit of Christ to live through you as a living extension of Jesus. Abiding as a branch of the true vine (Jesus Christ). Note, the branch and the vine are one organism. He that is united to the Lord in the Spirit is one spirit with Him. His life and power is to flow through us as the life and vitality flows from the vine to its branches. In this "abiding" we bear fruit. Also note, the branch doesn't struggle or "try" to bear fruit. It simply bears fruit by virtue of the vine's own flow of life. Fruit bearing is therefore a matter of nature... not effort.

Holiness is spiritual oneness with God through Christ Jesus by the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Holiness is therefore a state of being, a partaking in God's own divine nature (2 Peter 1:4),... not a state of doing, works, or deeds. It's the total reckoning of "not I, but Christ". For the born again believer is crucified with Christ, and yet they live. Not they themselves, but rather it is Christ who lives within them. The gradual eradication of self leading to the total reckoning of Christ Jesus within us.

As we become like Christ, who is God, we become like God. And God is love. Therefore, the only two governing "laws" that are binding upon the believer are:

1.) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate your love for the Lord your God by loving your neighbor as yourself.

In these two commandments... the entire law is fulfilled.

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The words standards as it pertains to the way someone dresses isnt biblical at all. For a Pastor to force that on a congregation isnt biblical at all.

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Holiness is living our lives set apart to the will of God. As we are immersed into the life of Yeshua we will take on his image. Being holy as he is holy.

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Holiness is freedom from sin. Standards apply to righteousness which is directly related to our actions and works whereas holiness deals with who and what we are it relates to our nature.

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Yeah, but what is.....

Oh, never mind. :lol

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I just wanted to include, and I'm sure that you'll not disagree, that "righteousness" also has to do with social justice towards the least of these (the unborn, the poor, the widows, the orphans, and the global community at large). It's far more that outward modesty and/or "dress codes".

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Righteousness involves all of our actions to all people.

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In God it is the sum total of all of His attributes held togather in His nature. In humanity it is what they are made by God when they are made partakers of the divine nature and the old carnal nature is removed.

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:thumbsup

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What? Standards as in dress? That isnt even a biblical concept. And it sure isnt even mentioned in the bible. Are you saying if you dont dress right you arent acting right?

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As it relates to our "spirit", yes... the old carnal nature has been removed through our partaking in the divine nature of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

This is where many get confused. Redemption is a process.

I believe that you'll agree that your physical body isn't fully regenerated/glorified yet. It is still subject to aging, disease, biology (hormones/chemical balances), and death. Until this is regenerated/glorified, no one can say that the carnal nature has been removed as a whole.

Also, the soul (the mind, will, emotions) of man are still rather carnal until renewed through biblical Christian disciplines. It takes daily renewal (renewing of the mind) to put on the "mind of Christ". This can be done through prayer, fasting, study, meditation, and sound biblical teaching. If one doesn't adopt these basic Christian practices they will remain quite carnal. Until our mind has been completely regenerated/glorified in Christ Jesus at the resurrection we will be subject to the carnal mind to some degree.

Therefore, I believe the teaching that the carnal nature has been removed isn't biblical. With regards to our spiritual nature, we are treasures in earthen vessels. In our spirits we will struggle with the carnal nature of the flesh and the mind until our entire being is glorified at the return of Christ.

Then we shall be entirely like Him.

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John 13:35 John 14:15. Those verses IMHO are what holiness is all about.

John 13:35
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

I have seen people who never cut their hair, never leave an inch of skin uncovered, and never watch a minute of TV treat their fellow man so mean its not even funny. Just sayin.

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That is because they are being conformed into the image and likeness of their religion and not the image and likeness of Christ Jesus. These individuals are not of us. Because they are not like Christ.

Holiness is a call to "incarnational living". In other words, it's a call to live in spiritual union with Jesus through the Spirit. Being like Christ in all things. Walking by the Spirit's leading in all things. Not living by religious codes of conduct.

For example, I don't believe that Jesus would shy away from a beach (or at least He hasn't convicted me about beaches yet). However, I wouldn't wear a speedo because I don't believe Jesus would wear a speedo. If I were to put on a speedo and look in the mirror, I'd not see a man who was in spiritual union with Christ. Therefore, I'd wear some modest swim trunks and perhaps even a modest shirt, especially while out of the water.

Walking by the Spirit takes a degree of surrender and common sense. Sadly, people don't know how to surrender... and common sense is even more rare. They'd rather have a list of rules so they don't have to think or seek guidance from the Spirit. And so they never experience walking as living extensions of Him. Their "holiness" only mirrors their religious tradition. Not Christ Himself.

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How does any of what you posted give any credence to the thought that we cannot live a life free from the desire to sin? Sickness aging and disease are effects of the fall separate from the carnal nature. One can be free from the carnal nature and still die and still age and still get sick.

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Ask a born again woman suffering from serious PMS why she hasn't lost the desire to tear your hear out when you track mud on the floor she just mopped. LOL

Some things are hormonal and lead to various behaviors and or desires. Yes, they can be overcome. But those nagging impulses are there.

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Jesus pretty clearly states that all sin originates from a common source and He never mentioned hormons. No where in scripture does it ever specificly or even alude to the doctrine that we must desire sin until we either die or are raptured.

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Luke arent we always going to deal with carnal nature as long as we are alive? Paul said I die daily. Right?

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The scripture where Paul speaks of dying daily is in no way speaking of a spiritual death. In context the passage is speaking of physical death. Paul is saying that hen is willing to die and counts himself as dying everyday as in other places he says he counts not his life dear or where he says for your sake wemaremkilled all the day we are led as lambs to the slaughter. He was in no way speaking of the carnal nature check the context.

Next look at romans 6:6 and compare it with romans 7:23, 24 and with romans 8:2

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I ran that through google translation...I got nothing

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Well the, it's settled, hormones don't exist or affect us! LOL (jk)

No, seriously...

Paul speaks eloquently about the Christian's battle between "the flesh" and "the spirit". When we say "the flesh" we speak of everything pertaining to our carnal nature. That would include our biology and even aspects of our psychological well being. I've seen saints of God with chemical imbalances who exhibit very vile and sinful behaviors. Paul said, there is no good thing in the flesh. This would also include any genetic issues that have resulted from our fallen nature. If you're correct... the Christian would have no battle with the flesh. This is why not only is the position that our sinful nature is entirely eradicated unbiblical... but it's also disproven by the universal Christian experience. This reality also highlights the need and absolute importance of grace.

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Now, don't get me wrong. The born again believer can indeed overcome the inclinations of their flesh (carnal desires, hormones, genetics, etc.) by surrendering to the Spirit's leading. Also, it is a daily act of surrender. This is where the holy nature of the Spirit in our spirit affects the emotions, then our reasoning, and finally our will. When we have felt conviction and come to an understanding of the wrong, we surrender our will and mortify the desires of the flesh (be they rooted in our carnal mind, affected by hormones, or even genetics). In many cases (those rooted in biology) a healing is in order. We can surrender our will and pray for healing and deliverance in these situations. God is a good God.

This is all really basic soteriology as it relates to our ontological make up.

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Those who do not believe that they still have that ol' carnal nature in the flesh, nor that we battle the carnal mind deep in our soul, actually demonstrate the religious side of the carnal nature. The side that hides the gritty, dirty, vile side of their being, refuses to accept it, and thereby they most often fail to address it. For them, this is the highest level of "holiness" they will ever achieve... because they don't believe that they have anything to overcome, nor do they believe in a process of growing in an ever increasing level of sanctification where we overcome the carnal and sinful nature of the flesh. In essence, they are frozen in a theological framework that is static rather than being spiritually dynamic, advancing from glory to glory. And for this reason, the very realty of grace is lost on them... because they technically see themselves as having "arrived" rather than being a spiritual work in progress.

Ah, the spiritual blood poison of Pelagius' doctrine!

Remember, our theological perspective has deep implications. For those who believe they don't have a carnal nature any longer... I wish you well. However, you'll discover that you still do. God loves to knock us off our horses, remove our vision, and lead us into deeper truth. And at some point most repent of the idea... and then see themselves as the desperate creature we truly are in need of ever abounding grace, and then they'll not have to deny the battle on the inside that they've experienced and denied.

If you believe that you are currently living in absolute perfection predicated upon your ability to be perfect, having the carnal and sinful nature eradicated in it's entirety, I can only say... good luck. See ya on the other side. I'll accept what is actually in me, my flesh that is, and throw myself down before a God of love and grace... a God who is renewing me and is faithful to complete the work He began in me, as I progress from glory to glory... ever increasing in my being conformed to His image and likeness.

If you've arrived... this is the best you'll ever be. For those of us who embrace the doctrines of grace... that is a horrifying thought.

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I am going to assume that you are speaking of Romans 7 as to the place where Paul "eloquently about the Christian's battle between "the flesh" and "the spirit" plase dont be satified with a romans 7 experience but move on to a romans 8 experience.

Though the carnal nature is removed and as paul said in romans 6 "destroyed" ( which for the record is where that pesky eradication doctrine comes from) we must be ever vigilant not to fall back into sin. It is like a grden you weed the garden you add mulch to keep the weeds out then you keep the gardened mulched and free from weeds as opposed to simply accepting that you will always have weeds and there is nothing you can do about it so you only pull one weed a day or only those right beside your plants. A weed free garden will grow much faster and produce much more than a weedy garden and so it is with a christian those without the weeds of the carnal nature will exhibit more growth than those who simply accept the weeds.

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The entire NT is full of references with regards to overcoming the still carnal nature of the flesh. One need not only refer to Romans 7. However, with reference to Romans 7, the tense of the words speak of a present battle. Romans 8 shows us how to overcome the still carnal nature of the flesh... we overcome it by consciously walking in the Spirit. If we are in the Spirit, we will overcome the deeds (desires) of the still fallen and carnal flesh. You can't "overcome" or "mortify" something that was "destroyed". If it's "destroyed" in the sense that you're using the term, it's gone. Nothing to overcome. Nothing to mortify. Nothing to chose against.

That's why we must understand the old nature being destroyed categorically. With regards to the human "spirit", the born again believer's inner man is regenerated. The fallen nature of the spirit is no longer present. Instead, the human spirit of the born again believer is cleansed, purified. The old nature of the fallen human spirit is now destroyed by the presence of the Holy Spirit. On the level of the spirit, the believer is now freely partaking in the divine nature through grace.

The flesh (physical biological aspect of man) is not glorified or regenerated yet. Neither is the mind of the soul, which must be renewed through prayer, study, fasting, meditation, and surrender.

One must think categorically. I'd like to see chapter and verse.


If the carnal nature is absolutely destroyed... it would be impossible to fall into sin. It would be against our nature because it wouldn't be in our nature. You have an ontological failure here.

If the very seed (nature) of a weed isn't present, there will be no weeds to weed up. The very fact that there are weeds to weed up establishes that the very seed (nature) of the weed exists in the garden.

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Your flesh is still as fallen and carnal as it was before you were born again.

When one is born again, their mind (for the most part) is still carnal and unlearned regarding the things of God. This is overcome through study, prayer, fasting, meditation. This feeds the regenerated human spirit and this is why new converts seem to crave the things of God.

The spirit of the born again believer is one spirit with the Lord through the abiding Holy Spirit. One this level, we partake in the divine nature. Hence, the fallen and carnal nature of the spirit has been destroyed. The born again believer's spirit is a treasure in a still earthen vessel.

Through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, who now abides in our spirits, we surrender to God's will. This is "walking in the Spirit" (Romans 8). And this is necessary to overcome the deeds of the flesh. We must renew our minds through studying and meditating upon the Word. And this affects our will. When we know what is right, we surrender our will to do it. And as a result... we overcome the still sinful nature of our carnal flesh. And when we are walking in victory over the flesh... our regenerated spirits rejoice and have peace.

Essentially, sanctification is striving to align the body and the soul with the now new nature of the spirit... in order to emulate, reflect, display, show forth... Jesus.

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It is impossible to even tempt a being who doesn't have a sinful or carnal nature. This is why God cannot be tempted with sin. However, when we are tempted... the flesh rises up because it sees opportunity to fulfill its still fallen and carnal desires. Why does it rise up to embrace the possibility of sinning when faced with temptation? Because it's still very much carnal and sinful in nature. Our "inner man" (our spirit) recoils from the temptation and even feels remorse, guilt, sorrow, and defeat if, through our will, we allow ourselves to sin. Why? Because the action is against the now new nature abiding in the spirit through the Holy Spirit. So in us... our spirit and our flesh are at war.

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Please do a comparison with me of terms in romans 7 and in romans 8

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Notice in chapter 7 Paul speaks of captivity and desireing to be delivered from a body of death and from a law of sin. Now lets move to chapter 8.

Romans 8: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Here is the awesome glorious blessed promise of freedom (one of many).

If some was a captive and now have been made free this speaks of entire freedom not partial. What person who is bound in chains would consider themselves from their chains if they were allowed to simply have the chains removed from your foot? No freedom would be to have all the chains removed.

I also listed vrs 3 to show what is spoken of here is not a mere process but rather perfection. Notice that it is specificly speaks of the fact that there was something that the law could not do but the coming death and ressurection of Jesus could. This same terminolgy is used in Hebrews 7.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Perfection was the aim and goal of the Jesus coming to earth and dying for us it was so that the fall could be countered the poison removed the disease of sin removed.

Hebrews 711 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?:
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:9
which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You are falling into a trap of saying that our spirit can be holy while our bodies are sinful. This is not possible nor is it ever taught in scripture.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Notice it is not just a promise for a clean spirit and soul but the body/flesh can be cleansed.




Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The word destroyed here means:

I.to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

A.to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

B.to deprive of force, influence, power

II.to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

A.to cease, to pass away, be done away

B.to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

C.to terminate all intercourse with one



Not true Adam Eveand the Angels all were created free from a fallen nature but they were all tempted and fell.


New weed seeds can be blown by the wind dropped by birds or planted by enemies thus constant vigilance is needed.

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If the law of sin, the fallen nature, is no longer at work in your flesh... how could some seed of temptation even appeal and thereby tempt you?

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What I'm saying is that the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The flesh isn't regenerated or glorified yet. The spirit has experienced this regeneration in the Holy Ghost. This is why we have to mortify (kill) the desires that reside in the flesh by walking in the Spirit. If the carnal and sinful nature of the flesh was destroyed... we'd never face temptation to sin. It wouldn't appeal because it would be against our nature.

I agree. Following the parable of the sower, we must have ground that is ready to receive and nourish a seed of temptation for it to grow. A spirit-led person is not friendly ground to this type of seed.