You Can Fake It All
 

It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it.

Repentance is easy to fake. Just go to the altar and look sorrowful.

Baptism. Just do it.

Tongues? I have heard lots of fake tongues in my life. Just sound like everybody else.

What many consider proof of God in your life, standards, are easy to fake, just follow the list.

Who has motive to fake salvation? All those who are being or have been pressured by wives, mothers, husbands, fathers, kids and friends to "get saved".

In a culture that greatly pressures people to get "saved" or go to hell and constantly measures who is "in" and who is "out", there is great pressure on people to "get saved" to get people off their back. They might not even know they are faking because they don't even know what the real experience is. Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula. The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out".

The UPC taught me they were different. But they are not. Some in the UPC have faith and some do not. There is no formula for salvation to prove to another you are saved, no way to say "You are in and you are out".

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

This is because fruit of the spirit, essentially love, is usually not taught and used as a way to demonstrate the life in Christ. Instead, works are more often looked to, as a way to measure or gauge someone's spirituality. How much have they given in tithes? How faithful are they to the church? How much to they give to all the various and sundry church fundraisers? How closely do they attain to the church's dress standards? These just name a few of the ways that are used to measure how "saved" someone is, but it is wrong to do so.

Instead, my favorite verse, and of all is from the mouth of Jesus himself. It answers the question posed in this post .... He said in John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. BY THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOW THAT YE ARE MY DISCIPLES, if ye have love one to another."

Essentially.... our love for Christ, and for love one another is what determines our salvation, and is what shows others around us that we are indeed disciples of Christ.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Yes, love is key. However, there are many who know how to schmooze and have good human relations skills that they can turn on and off when it suits their purpose. Abusive leaders do this, which is why they can get so many followers. They can look and appear loving but what they do is for their own purposes. So, love is key but can also be faked especially when they also follow all the rules and look very good on the outside.

Seriously?

*smh

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Dead serious.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Great thread, was just speaking with a new saint yesterday about this very thing.

Without the fruits of the Spirit, the results of the Spirit, all is in doubt.

Someone can say that they are a peach tree, yet until those fruits come on and are seen then it could be any manner of tree.

Recently my dad bought what was sold as an nut tree. He planted it and waited for the fruit.

What came out was a unwanted peach tree, the tree was said to be one thing but the fruits finally declared it to be something else.

How many so called Christians have faked it for years? They have learned the songs, danced the dance, talked the talk, advertised themselves as something Christian!

Yet when the fruits come out there is not the evidence of Christianity. This is the one thing that cannot be faked. You have to constantly yield to the Spirit of God to produce the Fruits of God.

Great thread, glad it was started.

Dumb thread. More bash the UPC junk.

You can take your main point and use it for any denomination. But instead, you felt the need to single out the UPC.

You can fake it as a Catholic, Lutheran, Mormon, COGIC, Baptist, "Charismatic," Independent, whatever.

You don't like the UPC, okay, I get it. Just use some intellectual honesty in a thread like this and admit that ANYONE in ANY denomination can fake it. This isn't something limited to the UPC.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Say anything truthful about the UPC that isn't positive and get a response like yours. Because many in the UPC can't take the slightest bit of criticism, constructive or not.

The difference between the UPC and these other churches is that they aren't constantly measuring who is in and who is out. You can measure who is in the church but you can't measure who is in the Kingdom of God.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Thanks! The fruits do eventually manifest themselves although sometimes it takes years.

But it wasn't truthful. It was dishonest. And it wasn't constructive, it was the very definition of bashing.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

I disagree:

The bible is very plain and emphtaic about being IN CHRIST and what the proof is to show that.

John said this:

1Jn 2:5-11 KJV But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. (8) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. (9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. (10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn 3:18-19 KJV My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (19) And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

1Jn 3:23-24 KJV And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We KNOW we have the baptism of the HOly Ghost by speaking in tongues.

Act 10:45-46 KJV And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,


No other scripture demonstrates how the Spirit is INITIALLY evident in a person's life except this one. But the key word is INITIALLY. It is NOT a sign of ongoing presence of the Spirit. Whether people can fake it or not, it does happen when the Spirit genuinely fills a person. But again, that is not ONGOING evidence. ONLY INITIAL. A person can be removed from the Lord in heart and spirit, and still speak in tongues.

The ONGOING evidence is what John focused upon, which is the the FRUIT of the Spirit. Loving one another.

John taught that the antichrist is refusing to accept the fact that Jesus came in flesh. (No, it's not a military leader who controls the world). And when we love one another, IT MUST BE BECAUSE JESUS HAS COME INTO OUR FLESH. This is how we disprove the spirit of antichrist. If it says Jesus did not come in flesh, and yet we love each other in a way that cannot be mere human love, then it is evident GOD IS IN US. In other words, Jesus came in the flesh. THAT is proof positive that we are "IN".

Starting to run out of dead horses to beat. I guess this is what keeps these forums going...

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Hey, I just got on this thread today. lol Never saw it before.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

It's totally truthful and not in the least dishonest.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

So you are able to run around and point out people and say "You and in" and "You are out" and be 100% correct?

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

That's because I just started it this morning. But, anytime you get to the meat of a discussion that might touch some spots that people are uncomfortable with they start saying things about "beating dead horses" and "bashing" because it hits too close to home, I suspect. And also they are taught organizationally that any criticism about the organization is wrong and that the organization must be defended constantly. Truth stands for itself though and is self evident and needs no defending. Truth needs presenting not defending. Let the people decide.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Are you saying John is wrong? Tell me what you get from John. It is mostly about knowing for ourselves about ourselves. Is your question about one person knowing another is "IN"?

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

I see nothing wrong with the statement you made and challenge. But I think in all fairness, THE ISSUE is being accused of being a dead horse, since so many spoke the same thing so many times here. -- not your post.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Looks to me like Johns is saying there is some circumstantial evidence that we can fruit inspect and guess where a person's spirituality lies. That doesn't eman we can run around and judge 100% whether others are in the kingdom or out as many do.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Could be. I don't read all the posts in the forum.

Really? Like your claim that because the doctrine is passed down, a great many have no clue what salvation is? Or that there's no way to tell, as you put it "who's in or who's out."

How many UPC churches have you been in for more than just one or two services?

Same regurgitated junk over and over.

Could care less how you feel about UPC or any organization. I agree with you on some of your points. I think UPC bashing is a tired subject, that's all. You paint those who criticize your thread with the same broad, sloppy brush that you are painting an organization with. Please... Carry on.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

LOL! A whole, whole lot, my friend. ;)

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Okay.

Newsflash:

It's much easier to fake it in mainstream denominal churches.

Repentance/salvation ...meh, just repeat.what the minister says.

Baptism... don't have to do it.

Holy Ghost...heresy! No need for it.

Living Holy and separate from the world...HA! Not at most churches. You can still smoke, drink, go to bars, party, cohabitate, pretty much live how you want and still go to heaven. If you believe in heaven, that is.

Just love people, that's all. Live life however you want, but love people and you're golden!

Define "a whole, whole lot."

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Whoops, sorry, didn't realize that this was a bash it UPCI thread. I really meant my remarks in seriousness regarding the fruit of Spirit.

But................

Seeings that this thread is turning that way.....

DOWN WITH THE UPCI, WPF, GIBS, ALJC, LDS, whoops, kinda got carried away!

LOL

Carry on folks.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Not really true man...I used to think that but you look at the Fundamentalist Baptists and wow!....All they focus on is the outward.Look im not UPC bashing...grew up in it and until recently had only belonged to UPC churches...but neither am I defending it..its not a problem that rests solely with Pentecostals but its one that is a common one in ANY church where you have members that are multi-generational...it becomes more culture...the longer you are exposed to the environment the easier it is to blend in because its a very strong cultural entity.You feel as if you are family and the church is the only place of safety and refuge this causes a very strong desire to blend in and conform...you dont want to be seen as different.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

:violin:tissue

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

I agree with ILG on this subject.

I'm a guy who was raised in this and lived this for 34 years.

I attend a different church now and there just isn't the pressure, or even expectation to look or act the part.

Forum Link

Why don't you, ILG and whoever else hates the UPC go to that forum and you all can whine and complain together about how rotten and horrible the UPC is.

This is true. ILG described in great detail the church my parents were converted in and I ultimately grew up in. Many lives were hurt in that place. There are those who regurgitate the same ol junk, my father being one of them, that went on and nobody is helped in this. Then there are those like me, who have moved on and have flourished despite our crippling past. I know legalism, bad pastors and hypocrisy well and stewing over the injustice of it all will get you no where.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

Ive heard stewing and harping from one organization about another and the same vice versa.Ive listened to ranting and harping about other denominations from Pentecostals and also about Pentecostals from other denominations.Ill be the first to admit that I can rant and harp on my pet peeves.One reason I do this is because when you are raised in something and you are molded and shaped by those beliefs and then later encounter reality and realize that some of those beliefs...not all but some are wrong you kinda fight a war with your convictions and what you were raised as daily.... ranting is a way of expressing that internal battle and conflict...its a way of keeping oneself alert to your beliefs instead of just passively accepting whats fed to you.Whats been mentioned on this thread is not a problem with just one certain organization or denomination...trust me it exists allllll over.That broad brush is held by many.You do realize that that broad brush mentality is perpetuated over the pulpit dont you? How many "Us VS Them" semons have you heard where this and that denomination is blasted for whatever reason or even closer to home maybe another oneness church that has *looser* standards? You NEVER hear a sermon where the preacher takes into account individual behavior its always lumped into the same group as if all in that church or organization believe and behave the exact same way.Its easy to blast large entities because its personal but break that down and we are all individual believers that have a wide range of beliefs and views.Sorry if this seems disjointed Im not trying to join one side or the other in this argument...just wanted to try to express a larger issue that Im still trying to figure out myself.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

I have experienced other denominations (esp. varieties of Pentecostal) who *do* likewise measure who is in and who is out. But with non-ultra cons, the difference is that the measurements are not so often the subject at Denny's or IHOP after services.

:heeheehee

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

It's easy to fake salvation as ANYONE defines it, why pick on the UPCI *again*???

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

ILG you need to be careful you don't judge the Word of God by man. The failures of man does not change the award of God.

Look to Jesus and not man. Man is sure to fail you.

Anyone faking it is to their own detriment.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

You have to admit that when UPCers see constant railing against them they have a legitimate reason for believing there is some bitterness there.

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

When someone is sharing of their own background, I do not see it as "picking on" that group. If ILG had come from a Baptist type church and posted similar, would the same ones say she is railing against or picking on the Baptists? She also clearly noted in the OP, "The same thing is true in all churches..."

Instead of dismissing the post without giving it much thought, could you consider that she may have a point? Especially this: "Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula."

Consider something I saw in the post, if you could set aside the thought that she is railing on the UPC. Is it not possible that there are people there who follow all the rules, so to speak, but who really don't have that real knowledge of Jesus or a lasting relationship with him? Could some in the church press these rules so much to the point where ones coming in might just see the necessity of the rules and focus on them and neglect what the rules are supposed to be all about? Have some focused too much on a "formula" to give security? Isn't this what the Pharisees did to their converts? They were so into "getting it right" that when Jesus, their Messiah came, they not know or recognize him. In addition, they also had people looking to them and thinking they were a great example and saved......when they were not. (I am not mentioning the Pharisees to insinuate that the UPC is the equivalent of them, but using their example to show a point that I believe the OP was sharing. The Pharisees has a "formula" and were adamant about it, yet so many of them missed knowing God.)

If this is so, that in essence there are people "going through the motions" in the churches but not truly having that knowledge or personal relationship with Jesus, what can be done about it? What changes could be made in the churches to stop, or at least greatly hinder, such from happening?

Re: You Can Fake It All
 

On a Baptist forum? Yes I would...

Mind you though, the problem isn't this ONE thread. The problem is this goes on over and over and over and over and over