The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, the scriptures are subjective and not absolute.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Not true, my interpretation is perfect and all the others have a right to be wrong...LOL

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Pretty good observation, lol.

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I know you said this jokingly, but really... this is what most people think about "their" particular interpretation of the scriptures...

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There, that's better .

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Brother, truly though...There is "one" interpretation but (many) applications.

People sometimes think (an) application is the interpretation.

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Lol... I'm a sister ;)

I agree that there are many applications of interpretations... :)

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I'm reading a book called Jewish Interpretation: Ancient and Contemporary.

It's a bit of a slog, but well worth it.

I relay now a paraphrase of something I read in the book (which is a quote from, if memory serves, the Talmud).

The idea then being, we have a part to play in the interpretation of God's Word. And not only, God intended for it to be that way, as if to say the Scriptures are incomplete without a human intrepretation of them. Or so say ancient Jewish believers.

Personally, I'm not convinced that such a view has any merit. Still pondering it though...

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Yes, I agree.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Everybody has an interpretation to scripture, and everyone can argue why their interpretation is the correct one. Therefore, Everyone's interpretations are subjective and not absolute.

That sounds more accurate.

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So according to this line of reasoning God simply inspired words at random (doesn't really seem possible) without any meaning attached to them and for no reason? If any of the above statement is not true than the Bible is absolute and not subjective.

If God had a reason for giving scripture then there is an absolute meaning to what He said.

If God was getting a message across to us than there is an absolute meaning we are to understand.

To say that there the bible is not absolute and it can mean whatever you want it to mean and ever bodies interpretation is correct is both illogical sense conflicting views cannot both be correct and seems lazy in that it avoids the work of proper diligent bible study for the truth. It also makes God a liar since God is not the author of confusion if there is no sense in the Bible it is simply a book of confusion.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

1 Tim. 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

If the scriptures are profitable for doctrine, instruction and so forth, and if they can validly be interpreted any old way and that is supposedly fine, then Paul was foolish to write this. It appears to me, quite clearly, that Jesus and the apostles taught specific doctrine. When the Sadducees asked him a question pertaining to the resurrection (they did not believe in it), Jesus replied in Matthew 22:29 Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God

I could write a book. I know exactly what is in my mind as I write. I know that which I desire to convey. While someone may read and think that I meant something different, that does not make my writing subjective. They have instead misunderstood what was written.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

You are correct there is an absolute and correct meaning to each scripture, but people are quite willing to let their ideas color the meaning of each scripture.
Per example as a oneness believer the statement
"Hear Oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord"
to me it means that God is indeed an absolute one.
however to a Trinitarian the same statement means a compound one.

you see the bias a person has reinterprets the meaning of a passage.

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To blame the reader on your poor writing would be unforgivable. It matters what the reader takes away from your writing and not what you wrote.

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If someone misinterprets what I was conveying, it must mean I have poor writing skills? Are you saying all the writers of the Bible have poor writing skills?

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I just want to point out that using a Biblical scripture saying that the Bible is absolute/true/God's Word/inerrant doesn't really work on a logical level.

It's a faith thing. You either have the faith to believe the Bible is Absolute/God's Word/Inerrant or the faith to believe that it's Inspired but fallible or the faith that it's complete hogwash. You can't PROVE anything about the Bible, only BELIEVE.

And in that case, I would say that it is in fact Subjective, (based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.). And that's just the beginning. Once you choose one of the 3 choices above to believe about the Bible, you then read it through the filter of your culture, gender, age, history, background, religious affiliation, education and experiences. (and hopefully the Holy Spirit)

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Of course bringing up scripture means nothing to people who don't believe the Bible, think it is a book of stories and nothing more, and so forth.

Jesus quoted scripture. Tell him that he can't prove anything about scripture......

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Dichotomy Girl if someone is trying to decide whether or not a book is to be taken absolutely or subjectively I would imagine that the best way to come to the proper conclusion would be to go to author in this case God. As the bible is God's word why would it be illogical to see what the Bible has to say about itself and how it is to be understood? No one is saying proving the legitimacy of the Bible by the Bible that would be like trying using circular dating a (a faulty practice used by evolutionist). It would seem illogical to allow anyone but the author a book decide whether He meant what He said or not.

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See, this is where I can't win though. ;)

As I would say that I HAVE gone to God, and prayed and studied. And yet, my conclusions are quite different from yours. Which would therefore most likely conclude you to believe that I'm either lying, deceived, clueless, possessed, a false prophet, mistaken or not really saved.

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Sigh..see this forces me to play devil's advocate....

We weren't there. We don't KNOW that Jesus quoted scripture, we just KNOW that someone wrote down that He did.

Look, I'm not anti-Bible. I'm really not. I'm quite fond of it actually. I just don't worship the Bible. And I don't have a relationship with nor serve the Bible. I do however, believe it's ultimate purpose is to lead us to worship/relationship/service to Jesus, through the infilling of the Spirit.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Let's look at this, then from your devil's advocate view.

It would appear that we shouldn't bother with anything at all in the Bible because all we know is that someone wrote it and we cannot know if anything is true.

Then, taking this, shouldn't one toss out any belief in Jesus because ultimately that is at least partly founded in what you read in the Bible? He was just a nice man that loved people. Oh- but wait- we really don't know if he did because we can't know if that part is true. Maybe he was really a mean person, throwing people out of the temple. Oh - but wait - we really don't know if that happened either.

How can one be fond of a book that you can't trust to mean a thing that it states?

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

I said that we can't KNOW, but that we can BELIEVE. That's what faith is. The very idea of faith is to believe in something that can't be proven. I believe in Jesus, I believe that he lives inside of me, and that he loves me. But I can't PROVE that to my Atheist husband.

I am fond of the Bible, because it taught me about Jesus. I don't KNOW that everything in the Bible is true. But I BELIEVE that many of the things are true, because the Bible led me to relationship with Jesus, through the indwelling Spirit. That's all faith, I can't prove that to anyone, but it's very very real to me.

Let me ask you this. (I'm borrowing this from a book I read years ago, I think maybe Rob Bell?). What's more important, that the Garden of Eden happened or that it happens? Whether it is literal or metaphor, it speaks to us, it teaches us, it gives us spiritual insight.

The truth is, I don't think I could worship a God who literally commanded the Israelites to commit genocide, or was OK with slavery, or didn't have a problem with women being raped or treated like Chattel.

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This is what I am attempting to say----you say the Bible taught you about Jesus and at the same time say you don't know that it is true. Then how do you know that the portions you have chosen to believe are really true? You may be basing your belief in Jesus on one of the untruths found there.

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Careful; you're simplifying, something that contradicts Religion and is the actual truth. ;)

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G-d is not the Author of the Bible; men (humans) are.

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I disagree according to scripture the those men were moved by God as to what they were to write much like a person writing as another say speaks.

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Hmmm...let me try this....

The bible was a stepping stone. It pointed me towards Jesus, it gave me a thirst for something more. The Spirit drew me, and then filled me. The Bible doesn't need to be inerrant to do that. At its very least it's a historical document. (I do believe it to be inspired and sacred, if not infallible).

Do you believe that the Spirit of God cannot draw a person, and fill a person, if the Bible is not absolute (or if they don't believe the Bible to be Absolute)?

You are right, I might be completely 100% wrong in all my beliefs about Life, Jesus and the Bible. I know that, and I accept that, and therefore I try to keep mind open. (I mean, it completely freaks me out that the Pharisees, the most religious of the day, not only missed Jesus, but thought the was doing the work of satan!)

But I do my best to follow the leading of the Spirit. I try to keep it simple. When I'm not sure if something is right or wrong, and I'm not getting a strong spiritual signal, I try to stick to the greatest Two Commandments.

Look, I get that what I'm saying is to you a horrifying and most likely heretical way to live. But it's where I am.

ETA: This is where I miss the old faces around here. Those who can see past my unorthodox and scandalous ways, because they know me, and know what I've been through and where I've come from.

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I am certainly not horrified by your thoughts. What I have attempted to do is to have you see that when one picks and chooses what is true and what is not, how do you really know if the places you chose to believe really happened? Let's take one thing you said:

Where is it that one gets that the Spirit of God draws a person or fills a person? Is it not from the Bible? If one believes only some things in it really happened or are true, then how can you know that the Spirit drawing is true?

I am not putting you down. This is not personal. What I cannot understand is how one can decide this part is true and this is not. What is your standard for doing so- in other words, what do you use to determine this?

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God is the author. Men are the writers

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Ok, lets take the Bible out of it for a minute. Mary Sue is not a Christian, and knows very little about Christianity. A friend invites her to Acme Christian Church. There a man preaches about Jesus, and Mary Sue thinks "wow, Jesus, if you are real, I would love to have a relationship with you".

A few days later, Mary Sue is praying at home alone in her bedroom, and all of a sudden something amazing she happens that she can't explain, as she is baptized in the Spirit.

A few days after that she comes out of the Grocery store and there is a pamphlet stuck under her windshield wipers. She see's that it's about Jesus, so she reads it, and it talks about how important it is to be Baptized, she feels in her heart that she would like to do this, and so calls the number of Gotham City Apostolic Church listed on the tract. She attends and is baptized in Jesus Name.

Now, I ask you this, would you call any of the 3 things used to draw her in, (A Pastor's Sermon, Personal Prayer, and religious literature) absolute truth and inerrant? Or would you say that God used the available people/items to make his will known?

A Sermon is not necessarily filled with Absolute Truth, it's certainly not inerrant or infallible. However, It CAN be inspired, and filled with sacred wisdom. And God most certainly can use ANYTHING to speak to and reach us.

What did people do in Jesus' time when the NT didn't exist? What about in the dark ages when only the Priests had access? When it wasn't even printed in the common language, or when most people couldn't read?

The Bible is a useful tool, but it's not God.

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But you have not addressed my question about the Bible. That is all the discussion is about- not the means by which a person comes to God or if that way is infallible.

I also have, in no manner whatsoever, equated the Bible as being God.

This was my inquiry:

How do you determine what in the Bible is worthy to be believed and what is not; what is true and what is just a story?

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Ok, simple answers to your questions:

Where is it that one gets that the Spirit of God draws a person or fills a person? It happened. I experienced it.

Is it not from the Bible? God drew before I ever opened a Bible. God filled me before I had any real knowledge of the Bible.

If one believes only some things in it really happened or are true, then how can you know that the Spirit drawing is true? Again, I can simply say because it happened to me. Someone told me "Jesus is real. If you seek Him, you shall find Him." and I did.

How do you determine what in the Bible is worthy to be believed and what is not; what is true and what is just a story? I don't think of it that way. I do my best to filter everything through Holy Spirit. I read and I ask, "What does this mean? How does it apply to my life? Can I learn something from this? What's the historical and cultural context? Was this book (especially NT) addressing a particular problem / pagan practice / church issue?



Does that help?

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

Prove it.

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Consider this- A woman hears that if she prays and seeks God, she will know if the book of mormon is true and of God. She has not read the book yet. She is told she will feel a burning in her bosom. She prays and feels the sensation.

This is similar to what you shared, but about a different belief system.

It was sounding like that is how you looked at it. You seemed to have decided that things in it are not true (at least from how you replied in some posts). I believe you shared about not believing God told the Israelites to kill people, for instance. How do you arrive at determining that the Bible does not give a true account of it?

I am not questioning what happened to you or how you came to a relationship with God.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

I doubt you will like this answer, but basically, Cognitive Dissonance. If I believe that here is only one God, Jesus, and I believe that the OT accounts are all entirely true, then to me, it's like saying that Jesus used to be a racist, sexist, genocidal baby-killer. My husband, who was raised a Christian, and became an Atheist puts it like this, "Either God doesn't exist, or he's a ______" (pick an expletive)

Jesus said that there was neither slave nor free, male nor female, Jew nor gentile. The OT God, definitely played favorites. For me, it's much easier to believe that the historical accounts have been tainted by infallible humanity than to accept some of the actions in the Bible attributed to God.

Re: The Scriptures Are Subjective
 

You can disagree all you want, but men wrote the Bible, and men decided which books would be placed within the Bible.

If G-d moved on those of the past, why doesn't G-d move on men today to write new Scriptures?

It's quite comical that we accept books written by a whore monger, an idolater, and a man whose heart had turned completely away from G-d. In today's Christian Religion, Solomon would be considered a total Heathen, not a candidate to write Holy Scriptures, nor a good example to upcoming Generations.

"Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father.

For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and went not fully after the Lord, as did David his father.

Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the Lord commanded."

Hmmmmm....

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Those are pretty strong thoughts.

Paul wrote that about male/female, etc. But there are those that discount whatever Paul taught.

Do you have difficulty believing God called a group of people to reveal himself through in the Old Testament? That he gave them a land that others were living in and that many of those people were killed?

Might I ask how you do decide how God is, since you disbelieve accounts in the Old Testament?

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They quoted David and the prophets. Most of the Apostle's messages were filled with references to the Psalms or prophets....which is in the Bible!

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lol..I should have asked that first since it was YOUR assertion God is NOT the author. You prove it

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That does not make God NOT the author.

Do you know how or why they decided certain books don't belong in the bible?

What difference does it make? Maybe God doesn't think we need more?

You are assuming he wrote anything after becoming a "whore monger" and all that.