What does believing ______ profit?
 

What does believing in onesness vs. the trinity really profit someone?
How does believing Jesus to be God as opposed to not God help anyone?

What good is it to believe in preterism over dispensationalism or vice versa?
What good is it to believe in the gifts of the spirit as opposed to not?

What does it profit you to believe tongues are the evidence of the Holy Ghost?
What good is it to believe baptism is required for salvation as opposed to believing it is something to be done after salvation?

What good are your beliefs? How does believing them make any difference?

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

While many can argue about any one of your questions, IMO believing in ONE God v e trinity is of utmost importance. I am not talking about the thousands of "trinitarians" who actually believe oneness theology even though they say they are trinitarian.....I am referring to those who actually believe in 3 separate and distinct persons of God....so......

in answer to your first question....if they truly believe in the trinity they believe in a false god and are practicing idol worship.....whom they ignorantly worship we must declare/make known.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

JFROG, the questions that you asked can be summarized with one question, that Pilate asked our Lord..."what is truth"?

All of this that we do in this life is because we are "seekers" of truth. The word tells us the all men are liars. With this in mind, we should not put all of our eggs in one mans basket.

We just owe it to ourselves and our Creator to get to the actual, perfect truth of the Word of God.

The truth is there for you and I, but since the Apostles are not around to set us all straight, we must figure it out for ourselves.

For me personally, I am on a QUEST to find the EXACT truth, based on the Word of God. I have by no means arrived, but I will not give up until the Holy Ghost confirms to me each doctrine individually.

It is a lifes' quest, but a noble one indeed.
Never stop seeking and trying to get to the bottom of each and every question in your mind. The alternative is to just go sit in front of TV and stop thinking...LOL. Its easier, but it will make us spiritual morons ultimately....LOL.

My prayer is since I received the Spirit of truth, is that it will lead me and guide me into ALL truth. I pray and talk to the Lord about every doctrine that I "trip" on and ask for illumination. Sometimes the Holy Ghost shows me greater truth in what I am seeing and sometimes it throws scriptural "red flags".

It is really about us and our walk with God. Jesus said the day would come when the "true" worshippers would worship God in both spirit AND truth. IT REALLY DOES MATTER TO GOD WHAT YOU AND I BELIEVE brother.

Everyone that is seeking exact truth should leave no stone unturned in their mind.

The fun thing about this forum is presenting our beliefs to become "targeted" by others. I just think..."if somebody can WHOP IT, I will DROP IT. Then I will see if they make more sense...LOL

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

um, wadr, why? If your God is bigger than their God, won't their God pretty much die out on its own?

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

The seriousness of finding the "truth" can be likened to a simple definition of Idolatry....
(Idolatry is a concept that we may have of God, but it may not be God at all...at that point it has become our imaginary god).

Either us oneness or the trinitarians are serving an IMAGINARY god. That makes this a critical issue to get to the bottom of.

These debates are the prefect will of God, since the Apostles are dead and nobody is here "officially" to vindicate our beliefs.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

What does believing against gluttony profit?

It is biblical to believe against gluttony. It is personally profitable for me not to be a glutton. It is healthy and good.

What this does not do is give me a right to judge others, tell others they are in or out of the kingdom over it. Tell people they are going to hell for being a glutton and build a church "against gluttony". Wrong focus.

But it is profitable to believe against gluttony and practice it against it myself.

These principles apply to many things. Take them and apply.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Ah yes.... the believing in a false God claim. You've turned oneness into a salvation issue... but why? Does it have any impact on anything else in your life? Does it have any impact on anything else to do with your religion?

If believing in oneness over the trinity is sooo important why doesn't the belief in oneness make oneness apostolics better people and better Christians?

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

A true belief against gluttony is very profitable!

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Would your questions be better framed as "What does debating about...."?

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

I'm not complaining about what you do on this forum. I'm saying seeking truth for the sole sake of truth turns "truth" into your God and not the Almighty himself.

If a doctrine or belief is only about being right and being in the truth then the "truth" is that there's something better you could focus your time and energy on. I'm not saying never have a discussion about whether God is oneness or trinity or anything like that, but if the belief ultimately doesn't have any benefit rather than being right then why are you soo concerned with it? Unless "truth" is more a God to you than God almighty himself.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Nope. My point goes deeper than being about debating those topics. Actually I feel a slight bit of debate on such topics is fine. What I am talking about is people getting so worked up and making some of the above things salvational when in the grand scheme the things I've listed and many others make no real practical difference in serving God or overcoming Sin or anything else... the only thing these beliefs are about is worshipping "truth" as a god.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

If you say it matters whether your oneness or trinitarian then your god is the idol "truth" and not God almighty himself.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

I agree that one should first seek God. In seeking God, God will reveal the things a person needs to know.

I see what you are after. For some, some of the things you listed are held to as matters of salvation and that would be how they profit them.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Repentance profits by turning away from your sins and towards jesus. Baptism profits by giving us a clean conscience. Even receiving the Holy Spirit profits us in many spiritual ways.

Maybe some of the things I listed do give some benefit.

However many do not, like:

Oneness vs trinity? Jesus is God vs Jesus is not God? Preterism vs Dispensationalism?

I say we judge the importance of a belief by it's benefit to us in our walk with God and with bringing sinners to Jesus. If the belief in question isn't important when it comes to those things then we shouldnt be very worried about it.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

(ya, but it makes us feel better! :lol )hearhear. chasing after wind.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

dang, a double play! you have now 'defined' God :(

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

LOL. I can't tell if your mocking me or agreeing and what's worse is that I feel that's by your design...

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

ah no, that's just bad communication...agreeing with you. "Triune God" or "One God" are merely completely pointless , and even satanic attempts to define God, when He is prolly both of those, and seven fold, to. It is an attempt to approach God with your understanding. It is a man's attempt to approach God, instead of accepting Grace through Christ. imo.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Satanic may be too harsh. I think many mean well. Musing over how jesus can be God at the same time as having a God and Jesus' and his God's relationship isn't bad or evil. It's just that when the explanation of that relationship becomes more salvational than love your neighbor and love your enemy and feeding the poor and preaching Jesus the son of God and him crucified and resurrected then something is amiss.

I think we should be concerned with the things God is concerned with and if our concerns are elsewhere then somethings amiss. Truth itself is fine and good but idolizing truth is bad. God is truth but searching after truth for truth's sake is not what God is concerned with. He's concerned with the lost. He's concerned with those trying to live for him. He's concerned for the hungry. He's concerned for the needy. He's concerned with the broken. He's concerned with us living right. He's concerned with true holiness.

I think we should always ask ourselves, is God concerned with this? And if God's not very concerned with it then we need to ask, why am I? I think God's most concerned with the things that profit us and that allow us to be a profit to someone else. Don't you?

The gospel isn't about truth for truth's sake. It isn't about having the right set of core beliefs so we can be saved. It's not about belief at all other than belief in God and Jesus. The gospel starts off telling us what Christ has done for us and it ends with a question: what will you do for Christ?

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

JFrog, I agree with you here. Getting caught up in the rights and wrongs of a doctrine, detracts from the bigger picture of following Christ, and being His disciple. If we are truly following Christ, the humbleness of heart that we take on as we emulate and walk after Him, will begin to reveal many things to us that are not true, both about ourselves, others, and the doctrines we believe.

The saddest thing that can happen to a disciple of Christ is to become content in the place where he found Him, and to believe that one can stay there forever. It doesn't work that way. We are pilgrims and strangers in this world, and we should not be in the same place we were when we first received Christ. Being a disciple is a journey.

Truth is Jesus. Truth is not a doctrine or a belief system, a church group, an organization, or a group of people believing something.

Truth is following Jesus with humbleness of heart and mind, realizing that we will always have limited knowledge that we humans are able to possess, and understand about our unlimited, and unfathomable Creator.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

ya, both well put--and Truth is a great Name, imo.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Many things are growth issues.

For example, believing the wrong eschatology hinders things because of the mindset it produces.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

I'm not convinced there's any notable difference in how Christians act due to eschatology.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Saves a lot of time deciding which God to pray to. :heeheehee

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

lol

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

I still say it is better to debate a cause with out settling it, than to settle it without debating it. Ultimately someone else will decide for you if you dont make your own personal decisions.

Unless you want to take the low road and say like Rodney King..."why cant we all just get along?"...LOL

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

My posts were never about debate

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Sorry bro. I thought your first post was addressing all this recent bickering.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Apparently you were not alone

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

I came not to bring peace, but a sword. it is the very nature of Scripture to divide, from a human perspective. Weird, huh. Its written in such a way that most anything can be justified or countered, so that premises may be revealed. Any time you have everyone in agreement on every aspect of interpretation of Scripture, you have a cult, i'm almost certain of it. it won't always be like this, meant it is meant to be right now, imo.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Jesus said unless you believe that I AM you shall die in your sins. Looks like the difference between Heaven and Hell.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

a case in point, imo--most see a black and white, flying or frying scenario; when there are many indications of various levels of each.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Some context for your deception.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

So getting my thread back on track, can anyone answer the question. What do any of the listed beliefs profit. Some have said eschatology affects other aspects. This may be true and I would be happy to hear a case for it. But by and large most Christian beliefs have such little impact on our lives and on bringing sinners to God that it seems they are rather unimportant over all.

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems no one is even trying to make the case of why any of their beliefs are important... The most many try to do is make them heaven or hell issues and that does give them an importance in a sense but I believe that if we follow Jesus who is the truth and if he doesn't show us and reveal to us the essentials we must believe in order to be saved then our blood is on his hands so to speak.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

My beliefs profit me in the following ways:

1.) They are a starting point.

I can't really know who I am, that is, honestly identify myself in regards to Christ, if I don't know what I believe and why. I don't necessarily need a label. Personally, I don't care for them. But my lack of care for labels and why I don't use them, is derived from what it is I believe. See how it works?

David wrote and Paul quoted "I believed therefore have I spoken".

Belief causes one to express. It may be verbally, or in some other way, but what one believes, especially if the belief is strong, will out. Even if no one asks. A woman who believes that she should be modest in public doesn't have to SAY it; she will simply dress according to what she believes.

This is true and so for all beliefs. They are the ground upon which we stand (which lets us know we ARE standing somewhere), and that is very profitable, indeed.

2.) My beliefs tell me where I've been.

As a former heretic, heathen antichrist who hated Jesus and Christianity, I can tell you where I've been, and how I got to where I am now. This is my testimony. This testimony is something I can share with whomever is willing to listen. If the listener can relate, I have likely gained a friend and someone who will then want what I have experienced.

But if I have no real conviction about anything, I'll never be able to share a testimony that means enough to move anyone. The fact that I believe, for example, in being immersed in the name of Jesus Christ and also in the baptism of the Holy Spirit allows me to talk about when it happened to me, and why it matters so much!

If I didn't believe those things, or came to not believe that those things mattered, then they only become a footnote instead of the main feature of what I would otherwise want to tell someone about the day the Lord Jesus saved me.

3.) My beliefs help me know where I am going.

Since what I believe helps me know where I'm standing and also where I've been, I can then grow from the past and present into a new future. If I solidly believe in the Oneness of God, I may revisit that doctrine, or not. I may be so sold on it being true, that the only place to go is forward. I can, instead of constantly wondering about the nature of God, move on to other things I don't understand, like say, typologies in the Tabernacle plan.

If I don't hold any beliefs however, or am not set in holding firmly to my beliefs, then I can be carried away into anything. That is no place to be. It's being lost at sea. Definitely not profitable. An aimless life is about as worthless as it gets.

4.) My beliefs give me purpose.

When I say I belief X about God, about Christ, about the Word, and etc. I can then launch from that place of belief and DO something with my life. If I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes, and if I believe Christ has ordered me to preach that very saving gospel to every creature, then with purpose and intensity, and I can go into all the world knowing that I am doing something worthwhile with my life. I'm not wasting away.

6.) My beliefs give me direction.

It's not enough to have a purpose, or even a burden. There has to be movement. Movement requires direction. If I was a universalist and didn't believe in the wrath of God and the lake of fire, I would likely not waste my time evangelizing anyone. If I was a "one stepper" (as it's called, but not a term I like to use), then there are masses of people I would not reach out to with the saving Gospel, because I would think of them as already saved. But if I am a "three-stepper" (another term I don't like to use), then even among the churched I would desire to preach the gospel since I would be genuinely convinced that the vast majority of those in the church world are not saved.

Right now, I'm not arguing either one. But holding such a position profits me by giving me the direction I need to go. And who knows, I might meet someone as I go along who will end up changing what I believe, which would likewise be profitable.

7.) What I believe grants me peace and a sense of completion.

It's not about complacency, but let's admit it: knowing I am saved and beloved by a faithful God who has my best interests in mind gives me a spiritual rest I can't receive anywhere else.

Knowing I have faithfully obeyed the gospel and have received the promise of the Father lets me know that I have a right standing with my Creator. I am restored. If I didn't believe any of that, I would have that fearful worry always nagging at me. But I don't have to experience that.

Conclusion:

Now, some may say that the above seven points are just me deluding myself into deception. Others may say the profit then is only about ME. I get some kind of psychological feel goods about what I believe.

Well, regarding the first, if that's what someone thinks about me, what business is it of mine? I'm not living for that person. They are not the Master to whom I rise or fall. So, if anyone here or anywhere thinks I'm crazy, I don't care. I will move onto the next one ready to hear.

As for the second, I think it's correct to admit that we are personally benefited by what we believe. If there is no value in holding onto a belief or a doctrine, or etc., then holding onto it becomes meaningless. No point in saving a piece of trash, is there?

Ask yourself: is salvation for us or for God? Or both? God gets the glory in saving a soul, for sure, and I know He enjoys the restored fellowship He gets to experience when and after He has saved someone. But that doesn't mean that that saved soul gets nothing in return. Sometimes I think we get the better end of the covenant. God will still be God no matter what. He doesn't change. We're the ones He changes for the better. We experience love, peace, joy, hope, and all the rest of the blessings He gives us, things we could never otherwise experience, outside of His mercy and grace. We're the winners just as much as He is. So, yes, what I believe has a reward for me and me alone, but it doesn't overshadow the fact that God is the one that made it all possible to begin with.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

good points, VS. I may have different conceptions at a few of the points--prefer 'show' to 'preach,' maybe--but that's pretty complete.that might also be seen as a reference to NOW, the capitalization being what it is.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

i think ones eschatology--whatever it may be--should fall under 'prognosticating,' personally; Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man... tells me that you could guess all day, or for the rest of your life, about what happens after death--you will never know. And, i think we may have to the whole 'eternity starts after death' thing completely wrong. I distrust eschatology mostly because of the groupthink vision that we all mostly have based upon the common eschatology, and i compare that to other groupthink in Scripture, which always seems to be a fail.

i think most of our belief system seems to have so little impact because it has been manufactured for us by a corrupted system--from salvation, when you were proselytized by some 'saved' person, most likely pressured in fear of hell to 'join up' and get 'saved' by being baptized, wherein you are then 'in,' and are then qualified to start inculcating that religion's dogma, and (mostly) pointing at those groupthought to be 'unsaved' and excluding them, unless they straighten up and conform to the narrow set of dogma, to becoming a proselytist oneself, waiting to die and go to heaven. You may as well be in a coffin with this, imo.

When you separate what you believe--which is endless, and varying--from what you know--which is a very short list--and then insist on leaning on what you know, and mostly ignoring what you believe, your life can change drastically. I know this might sound like an unusual way, but how can you tell people about God if you do not demonstrate your trust in God, which will be evident by your actions, regardless of what you say to people? Overriding what you say, even.

I think we often shut Christ and the Holy Spirit from teaching opportunities by laying them aside, effectively, and 'believing' for our own things that are not in God's will. You can't be in debt and 'believing' for God to pay off the mortgage--as harsh as that might sound to many. You can't smoke, and be 'believing' for God to remove your lung cancer. Etc.

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

Very good Bro.:highfive

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

For a deeper understanding go here.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=34982

Re: What does believing ______ profit?
 

I think you've made a great generalization. Yes, some beliefs are profitable for the reasons you've mentioned. Are all beliefs of any kind profitable for those reasons? Or are there some meaningless beliefs we prop up for knowledges sake? And if so how can we tell the difference?