Apostolic Friends Forum

Apostolic Friends Forum (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)
-   Fellowship Hall (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Authenticity (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=46530)

barry72 07-23-2014 06:16 AM

Authenticity
 
I have pondering lately about how we struggle in Apostolic churches to be authentic. I know I have been guilty of putting on my "perfect" mask when I'm at church and acting like I have it all together...to only get home and struggle with pride, anger and many other issues.

Truth is, I don't know anyone that doesn't have struggles and sin in their life, yet we still feel the need to cover that up in God's house. Authenticity starts in the pulpit. We need leaders that will confess their sins to the church and help others realize that were not perfect, and the best of us make mistakes. The Pharisee's had this issue of believing they were perfect by obeying the laws. We can't allow ourselves to coast any longer pretending we have it all together.

Authenticity will be one of the biggest factors in reaching our world. People already label Christians as hypocrites and we usually earn thag title. People want to know that you can still follow Jesus and not be perfect and have it all together. Lord knows I'm far from it, so why should I pretend?

Wednesday morning thoughts....

Michael The Disciple 07-23-2014 06:49 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Barry,

There is truth and wisdom in a Christian leader confessing his sin if and when that happens. And yet one of the qualifications of leadership is that they are living a blameless life.

1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Tim 3:1-2

So an Elder would be expected to be one found consistent in his devotion to Christ. So altho yes he should be an example to be one who admits his sin if that happens, the Lord Jesus Christ is expecting such a man to be an example to other believers how they are to walk free from sin.

So rather than taking the mindset that Christians MUST FALL and that they WILL commit sin on a regular basis we need to think like Apostle Paul instructed us.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:1-2

The Christians mindset and faith should be that he is DEAD TO SIN! Then one will begin to get the victory over sin and not the other way around! Peace and love.

Sean 07-23-2014 07:33 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1326813)
Barry,

There is truth and wisdom in a Christian leader confessing his sin if and when that happens. And yet one of the qualifications of leadership is that they are living a blameless life.

1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Tim 3:1-2

So an Elder would be expected to be one found consistent in his devotion to Christ. So altho yes he should be an example to be one who admits his sin if that happens, the Lord Jesus Christ is expecting such a man to be an example to other believers how they are to walk free from sin.

So rather than taking the mindset that Christians MUST FALL and that they WILL commit sin on a regular basis we need to think like Apostle Paul instructed us.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:1-2

The Christians mindset and faith should be that he is DEAD TO SIN! Then one will begin to get the victory over sin and not the other way around! Peace and love.





Awesome post Michael, that is spot on....:thumbsup


Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 08:22 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1326813)
Barry,

There is truth and wisdom in a Christian leader confessing his sin if and when that happens. And yet one of the qualifications of leadership is that they are living a blameless life.

1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Tim 3:1-2

So an Elder would be expected to be one found consistent in his devotion to Christ. So altho yes he should be an example to be one who admits his sin if that happens, the Lord Jesus Christ is expecting such a man to be an example to other believers how they are to walk free from sin.

So rather than taking the mindset that Christians MUST FALL and that they WILL commit sin on a regular basis we need to think like Apostle Paul instructed us.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:1-2

The Christians mindset and faith should be that he is DEAD TO SIN! Then one will begin to get the victory over sin and not the other way around! Peace and love.


So doesn't this interpretation of scripture simply allows the mask to be worn by all-- from the leadership to the laymen?

When I left the Apostolic church, I found a church of Holy Spirit filled believers with whom I could be "AUTHENTIC" with-- Pastors and laymen alike.

The turning on of the lights on the sin in our lives encourages real repentance and real fellowship.

Sean 07-23-2014 08:31 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Why do we need to turn the lights of sin on when we are free from sin, that is only for the ungodly. Not saints.

Romans 6..... What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.




If you are "actively" sinning you are not a saint.

Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 08:34 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1326822)
Why do we need to turn the lights of sin on when we are free from sin, that is only for the ungodly. Not saints.

Romans 6..... What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.




If you are "actively" sinning you are not a saint.


If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself.

Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 08:35 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Sometimes people sin.
Sometimes people do not speak to their spouses like they should.
Sometimes people experience road rage.
Sometimes people have evil thoughts.

Sometimes people are hypocrites.

Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 08:49 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
I remember when attending a certain UPC, every once in a while we would share testimonies in the service. Whenever I got the chance, I would thank God for His Grace and Mercy in my life.

I was 21, unmarried, and in the military-- I had no shame as I testified and thanked God for His Grace and Mercy in my life.

Then, I had an older person, not elderly, but a saint who I looked up to, that person spoke with me in private and said that I shouldn't always publicly thank God for His Grace and Mercy because it makes people think that you are sinning every day.

Then I said, but I do sin everyday. Even my thoughts are sinful sometimes.

Then that person says, God knows your heart and I understand what you are saying-- but others hear what you say and think that you are living in sin and not saved. You have to be wise and you can't share everything with every body. The Lord knows and I just want you to be aware of how some church folk are. Some folks are very judgmental.


I smiled and said ok, and didn't give it too much thought because I knew that if they knew what I knew about what I was going through on a daily basis, they would be thanking God for His Grace and Mercy too!

Even right now, I look back and wonder how on earth I ever got over!


HALLELUJAH JESUS!!!

n david 07-23-2014 08:53 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
In my experience, with the exception of major scandals, people who view the church as hypocritical or fake do so because of friends or family they know...not because of the Pastor. Again, there are exceptions, but every time a person has told me they don't go to church because of hypocrites, it's because of someone they know personally - friend or family member - who claim to be Godly, but don't live Godly.

barry72 07-23-2014 09:05 AM

Good conversation here. My point is this...the pastor of the church needs just as much mercy and grace as the non- believer walking into church for the first time and I think new believers need to know that. They need to know that the messenger delivering the message knows what it is like to have greed, anger and jealously in their hearts. Perhaps the problem may be that many Christians say they are dead to sin and never acknowledge it and that's why I still see greed, anger, and jealously in many Apostolic ministers. When sin is acknowledged, it can be dealt with.

Luke 07-23-2014 09:14 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
There is no reason for a christian to believe that a christian must sin after conversion. I agree that we retain our carnal nature after the point of salvation which does pull us toward sin and also desires to sin (as it is our sinful flesh against which the Spirit wars). However from our carnal nature and sinful flesh we can be delievered and it can be destroyed thus enabling us through Jesus to live a perfect (in respect to sin), blameless life before God in holiness. This act of being made free from our fallen adamic nature is post salvation and is the experience of entire sanctification. The result is a pure heart.

Aquila 07-23-2014 09:15 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
The Scripture says...
I Timothy 3:1-2
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
This simply means that an elder's life should be above reproach. It doesn't mean that he's perfect, it simply means that he isn't embroiled in controversy, scandal, or illegal activity.

Also, we don't have to live as slaves to sin. The Bible says...
2 Peter 1:4 (NLT)
And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world’s corruption caused by human desires.
If we have been born of the Spirit, we have the very Spirit of God abiding in our inner man, the spirit. We literally become "one spirit" with the Lord:
1 Corinthians 6:17 (NLT)
17 But the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.
We share in a "oneness" with God that is perfectly reflected in the man, Jesus Christ. This oneness (abiding) allows us to be led by the Spirit. As we are led by the Spirit we cease sinning as a practice. It takes time. You see, while your spirit is united with the Lord's Spirit, your mind must be renewed. The old thought patterns, memories, experiences have to be cleansed from your mind. This is done through prayer, fasting, and the study of God's Word. This is "putting on the mind of Christ". This sanctifying grace is one that we will grow in throughout our lives.

It is possible to live above sin. What is sin? Any desire of the flesh that is contrary to spirit of God's Law. What is the Law of God? It's pretty simple...
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”
You'd be surprised how easily one can live without sin. But the answer isn't in listing these commandments and seeking to live by this. The answer is in the essence of these commandments. That is "love". A love for God and a love for others. Jesus put it this way...
Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
These two simple commandments are to be the motivating force behind all we do. So that in loving God and others we live out a life that isn't in violation of God's holiness. Paul put it this way,
Romans 13:8-10 (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
... and...
Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love fulfills the Law. Not legalistic efforts to abide by man made standards, even if the commandments or standards are plucked out of Scripture.

So what must one do if they do sin or are struggling with sin??? And why do we struggle with sin??? You see, right now your flesh is not regenerated, your spirit is. So the desires of the flesh still rage. In fact, the flesh and it's desires war against your spirit. This is why the impulse to sin is still in you. It's the flesh. So, there may be times when you succumb to the flesh and it's desires. There is good news for the saint of God who has a bad day of struggling with the flesh,
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Just confess them. However, really confess what the real issue is. For example... if you just happened to steal your neighbor's lawn mower... you shouldn't confess to having broken the eighth commandment. Don't confess that you've stolen. Why? Because that's not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is... you didn't love your neighbour enough to refrain from stealing his lawn mower. You need to repent of not loving your neighbor enough to respect him and his property. It's not enough to refrain from stealing the neighbor's lawn mower. Hence, the law itself is imperfect. You have to love your neighbor. You have to be filled with love for all people... even the most vile and sinful people. You failed to allow Christ's own love to pour out of you in your moment of temptation to take that lawn mower.

The root of EVERY sin is a failure to love God or a failure to love another as Christ would love them.

Have you neglected worship or been tempted to blame God for things gone wrong? The sin isn't so much neglecting worship or blasphemy... the sin is a failure to love God more than you currently do. Because if you loved Him as He calls you to love Him... you'd not even think of neglecting worship or blasphemy. So confess the lack of love and pray to be filled with a divine love that you can return to Him as you grow in your love for Him. Fall in love with Him all over again.

He's faithful and just to forgive. He knows that we are but flesh. But the goal, the mark, the prize... is to be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus. To emulate and image Jesus before a lost world in what we think, say, and do. Jesus is the standard. Not the Ten Commandments. Jesus. Loving God and others as Jesus loves them.

Pretty simple? It's harder than it looks. So the two "commandments" (if you will) that you should focus on are:
1.) Love God with all your being.
2.) Demonstrate your love for God by loving others as yourself.
If you are loving God and others with all you are... you do well.

Some say it's too simple. They want to add all kinds of jargon, rules, bylaws, standards, blah, blah, blah. However, the measure of true spirituality isn't measured in its complexity. It's measured in its simplicity.

Embrace love. Get all focus off rules and standards. Focus on Christ and His abiding in you. Then let that love, His love, pour forth in all you think, do, and say. You'll discover that you gained a significant victory over sin and the flesh that day.

Living "holy" isn't about rules or standards. It's about abiding in divine love. A divine love for God and others. Think about it... what is God's very essence? Love. Therefore we take a close look at these texts...
1 John 4:8
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 4:16
So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
You see... God doesn't just "love". God IS love. Therefore, when you are loving, patience, kind, and forgiving... you are most like Him. Living a life of divine love makes you discover the key to becoming perfect... as your Father in Heaven is perfect. He is love. Be a vessel of His love. In this... you will discover true "holiness".

Pressing-On 07-23-2014 09:45 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Good post, Aquila. :thumbsup

I will only add to barry72's post this scripture:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" 2 Thess 2:13

We remain holy by the "renewing" of our minds (Romans 12:2). This is an ongoing process.

Perfect means mature - it's an ongoing process.

It is not necessary to be "authentic" with things that try to interfere in the process of sanctification. That is part of our maturity process.

Pride, anger, etc, are things we battle on our knees before God. All of these elements will hit us at one time or another. It is part of the growing process. We don't have to wear every struggle on our sleeves before the saints to see. We can share our struggles at an appropriate time (mainly to show that God always gives us the victory), unless, it feels as though we are overwhelmed and need to share for prayer or deliverance.

I am not a hypocrite when I keep things inside and only between me and God. How does it benefit the church body to know I am struggling with pride or anger? I have the utmost faith that He hears my prayers and will help me overcome. If I have to go to Him in prayer seven times a day, I will obtain the victory.

Aquila 07-23-2014 09:51 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1326842)
Good post, Aquila. :thumbsup

I will only add to barry72's post this scripture:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" 2 Thess 2:13

We remain holy by the "renewing" of our minds (Romans 12:2). This is an ongoing process.

Perfect means mature - it's an ongoing process.

It is not necessary to be "authentic" with things that try to interfere in the process of sanctification. That is part of our maturity process.

Pride, anger, etc, are things we battle on our knees before God. All of these elements will hit us at one time or another. It is part of the growing process. We don't have to wear every struggle on our sleeves before the saints to see. We can share our struggles at an appropriate time (mainly to show that God always gives us the victory), unless, it feels as though we are overwhelmed and need to share for prayer or deliverance.

I am not a hypocrite when I keep things inside and only between me and God. How does it benefit the church body to know I am struggling with pride or anger? I have the utmost faith that He hears my prayers and will help me overcome. If I have to go to Him in prayer seven times a day, I will obtain the victory.

:thumbsup

Amen.

We can confess our sins and faults in a general manner. Sometimes too much information can cause one to stumble. For example, if an elder says, "I've struggled with over-eating this week.", it can cause one prone to over-eat to think, "Well, pastor has over-eaten and he's okay with God, I guess my fourth helping of Hamburger Helper isn't a big deal." The elder can simply say, "Ah, my friends, I've struggled with my flesh this week."

Also, I love what you said about sharing things at an appropriate time. An elder may have struggled with anger, or maybe an elder is currently struggling with anger. That pastor can privately counsel a couple wherein anger is a major issue and share his own struggles and how he has gotten a grip on it or has sought counsel.

You're right... we don't have to wear every sin or struggle on our sleeves. We can simply admit that we have them in the appropriate manner or circumstance.

Luke 07-23-2014 09:55 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
To the extent of saying that we battle against the attempts of satan to cause us to fall I agree that we struggle with sin but to say that we do sin or that we must repent daily i strongly disagree. This is not biblical at all we do not have to sin.

Pressing-On 07-23-2014 09:56 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1326844)
:thumbsup

Amen.

We can confess our sins and faults in a general manner. Sometimes too much information can cause one to stumble. For example, if an elder says, "I've struggled with over-eating this week.", it can cause one prone to over-eat to think, "Well, pastor has over-eaten and he's okay with God, I guess my fourth helping of Hamburger Helper isn't a big deal." The elder can simply say, "Ah, my friends, I've struggled with my flesh this week."

Also, I love what you said about sharing things at an appropriate time. An elder may have struggled with anger, or maybe an elder is currently struggling with anger. That pastor can privately counsel a couple wherein anger is a major issue and share his own struggles and how he has gotten a grip on it or has sought counsel.

You're right... we don't have to wear every sin or struggle on our sleeves. We can simply admit that we have them in the appropriate manner or circumstance.

Amen! And you are also reminding me of this scripture:

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God." - 2 Corinthians 1:3-4

Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 10:05 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
I am not saying that one must sin every day.

I have noticed that there appears to be a certain arrogance when people declare, "Well I don't sin every day."

If it was so simple and easy to live without sinning every day, then Christ's death was unnecesary.

Yes He gives us power to overcome sin, but He is also our covering. We need His covering even on our best days because we are totally corrupt and incapable of being sinless.

Pressing-On 07-23-2014 10:10 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 1326846)
To the extent of saying that we battle against the attempts of satan to cause us to fall I agree that we struggle with sin but to say that we do sin or that we must repent daily i strongly disagree. This is not biblical at all we do not have to sin.

Yet, the Word says,
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" - I John 2:1

I like how Barnes puts it - "As all are liable, with hearts as corrupt as ours, and amidst the temptations of a world like this, to do. This, of course, does not imply that it is proper or right to sin, or that Christians should have no concern about it; but the meaning is, that all are liable to sin, and when we are conscious of sin the mind should not yield to despondency and despair."

Galatians 6:9 and 2 Thess 3:13 both admonish us to "not be weary in well doing". When saints get tired and weary, they make mistakes. I have made mistakes being tired and weary.

But, I have an advocate with my Father... I have struggled and didn't share that with anyone at church. God gave me the victory because I continually sought him to bring me out...I believed that He would.

I can honestly say, that God wouldn't let me go. He came to me everyday until I had deliverance over that issue that wanted to destroy me. Weak on my part? Certainly. But, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

When I found Him at the Cross it was a beautiful thing. But, later, as a saint, I found Him to be truly my Father, when He stood by my side and set me on solid ground.

Many times, the church is not as forgiving.

Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 10:11 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Public confession in a church service may not be called for at all times, but every Christian needs to have someone they can be real with, someone they can confess their faults and struggles.

The Book James says we are to confess our sins, one to another.

It is edifying to confess your faults because the person you confess to may be struggling with the same thing, or maybe they have conquered that sin and they can help you. Even still, the person that hears of your struggle will be encouraged to be transparent when in the future they are tested with the same thing.

When a church fosters an atmosphere that is not conducive to transparency, true fellowship and even the overcoming of sin is hindered.

After all, we overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.

Luke 07-23-2014 10:25 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 1326850)
I am not saying that one must sin every day.

I have noticed that there appears to be a certain arrogance when people declare, "Well I don't sin every day."

If it was so simple and easy to live without sinning every day, then Christ's death was unnecesary.

Yes He gives us power to overcome sin, but He is also our covering. We need His covering even on our best days because we are totally corrupt and incapable of being sinless.

Without the death of Jesus there would be no possibility to live a sinnless life.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 make you perfect
in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.



It is only through Jesus that it is possible how therefore can anyone boast in any way of being sinnless in and of themselves?

Aquila 07-23-2014 10:47 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Sin is a failure to love God and others. Any thought, word, or deed that isn't grounded in love is missing the mark of our high calling to be Christ-like.

Most who claim sinless-ness based on their adherence to the Law, or some compiled list of assorted commandments, have a very shallow understanding of holiness.

Love with abandon. Love with passion. Love with grace. Love with mercy. Love as He has loved you.

Luke 07-23-2014 11:07 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1326863)
Sin is a failure to love God and others. Any thought, word, or deed that isn't grounded in love is missing the mark of our high calling to be Christ-like.

Most who claim sinless-ness based on their adherence to the Law, or some compiled list of assorted commandments, have a very shallow understanding of holiness.

Love with abandon. Love with passion. Love with grace. Love with mercy. Love as He has loved you.

Most have never heard the message of how to living a truly sinnless in this present world or that it is even possible. Most have heard a weak knee gospel that says that since you are human you are going to sin maybe not evereyday but through out your christian life you will sin and it can't be helped. This is an insult to the work of Christ on the cross.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:30 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 1326868)
Most have never heard the message of how to living a truly sinnless in this present world or that it is even possible. Most have heard a weak knee gospel that says that since you are human you are going to sin maybe not evereyday but through out your christian life you will sin and it can't be helped. This is an insult to the work of Christ on the cross.

Very true. Most have been told they can't help but sin every day. One aspect of our salvation is sanctification until Christ-likeness. That would mean that one can get the victory over sin. So, I see your point.

But... I've seen the other side also. I've seen those who profess that they can live sinless lives lower the bar to something like the Ten Commandments... and frankly, I could obey the Ten Commandments in my sleep. Of course they can live "sinless lives", they've defined sin in a manner wherein they can easily not sin.

Luke 07-23-2014 11:35 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1326874)
Very true. Most have been told they can't help but sin every day. One aspect of our salvation is sanctification until Christ-likeness. That would mean that one can get the victory over sin. So, I see your point.

But... I've seen the other side also. I've seen those who profess that they can live sinless lives lower the bar to something like the Ten Commandments... and frankly, I could obey the Ten Commandments in my sleep. Of course they can live "sinless lives", they've defined sin in a manner wherein they can easily not sin.

John Wesley spoke of being made perfect in love in which you loved God supremely and that you loved your nieghbor as yourself. This he taught was accomplished through entire sanctification.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:37 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
When a saint of God dies they may find themselves in quite a quandary. They might be expecting God to whip out the Ten Commandments and judge them according to that law. Or... they might expect God to whip out a list of commandments reflecting the bylaws of their church, organization, or denomination to judge them. Or, they might expect some Messianic standard to be presented and they be judged by it.

However, none of these theories are correct.

When saints of God die, and we are drawn before the divine light of the one who is Love itself... every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were grounded in the love of Christ, the Spirit bearing witness to divine love poured forth... or rather something were grounded in selfish ambition, carnal reasoning, and self-righteous religiosity.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:39 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
We who are the recipients of God's grace are not lawless. We are bound by the Law of Christ, the Law of Love.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:43 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
One can obey the Ten Commandments and not truly love their neighbor. Thus, the Ten Commandments do not rise high enough to meet the standard of God in and of themselves. Yet, if one simply surrenders to living a life of divine love... they will automatically find that they have kept the Law of God, the Ten Commandments. Therefore, the sole focus in all things should always be love. Love for God... and love for others. When we strive for union with God through the Spirit and surrender to the very essence of what He is (Love) we have both oneness and holiness.

For example, just because I don't steal my neighbor's lawn mower... it doesn't mean that I love him.

However, if I truly love him, I wouldn't even conceive of stealing his lawn mower. I wouldn't even need to remind myself of the 8th Commandment. Christ's Righteousness would simply flow freely with divine love should I ever have opportunity to take anything of his.

Luke 07-23-2014 11:49 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1326881)
One can obey the Ten Commandments and not truly love their neighbor. Thus, the Ten Commandments do not rise high enough to meet the standard in and of themselves. Yet, if one simply surrenders to living a life of divine love... they will automatically find that they have kept the Law of God, the Ten Commandments. Therefore, the sole focus in all things should always be love. Love for God... and love for others. When we strive for union with God through the Spirit and surrender to the very essence of what He is (Love) we have both oneness and holiness.

You and I disagree on the nature of God you hold that it is Love while I hold that it is Holiness. However if we live a life (after salvation) dominated by Love for God and Love for others then we will live a sinnless life. On this I feel we can agree.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:50 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Many put the cart before the horse and say that the Ten Commandments teach us how to love God and love our neighbor.

Not true.

The Ten Commandments don't include anything with regards to what constitutes true religion... visiting the widow and the fatherless in their affliction. However, love with demand such. Therefore, the Law of Love is infinitely higher than the Ten Commandments. Why? Because it would effortlessly produce all that the Ten Commandments might demand... and more.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:53 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 1326883)
You and I disagree on the nature of God you hold that it is Love while I hold that it is Holiness. However if we live a life (after salvation) dominated by Love for God and Love for others then we will live a sinnless life. On this I feel we can agree.

Holiness is merely the state of being separate, absolutely distinct. What makes God so separate and absolutely distinct? Many things. Some might say His power or His knowledge. However, I believe it is His love. Power, strength, knowledge... none of that matters without motive. What is the motive of God? What is the heart of God? What is it in His very essence that makes Him "Holy"? It is my opinion that it is His love. And His love is the very essence of who and what He is.

God is said to be "holy". But nowhere, to my knowledge, is God said to be "holiness" itself. However, while God is said to be "loving", Scripture also affirms that God "is love" itself.

Therefore, when we are loving with an unfading divine love... we are holy as He is holy.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:58 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Can one be "holy" without love? Nope.

However, can one live a life of divine love and not be holy? Nope.

It's all about love. God's holiness is because of His love. And His love pours forth from His very being. Love is who and what He is. And in this... He is holy.

Aquila 07-23-2014 11:59 AM

Re: Authenticity
 
Why does God hate sin?

Many say it is because He is "holy" and it "offends" His holiness. Rubbish. God's holiness is predicated upon His very essence, love. God hates sin... because it destroys the object of His love... man.

Praxeas 07-23-2014 12:27 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry72 (Post 1326812)
I have pondering lately about how we struggle in Apostolic churches to be authentic. I know I have been guilty of putting on my "perfect" mask when I'm at church and acting like I have it all together...to only get home and struggle with pride, anger and many other issues.

Truth is, I don't know anyone that doesn't have struggles and sin in their life, yet we still feel the need to cover that up in God's house. Authenticity starts in the pulpit. We need leaders that will confess their sins to the church and help others realize that were not perfect, and the best of us make mistakes. The Pharisee's had this issue of believing they were perfect by obeying the laws. We can't allow ourselves to coast any longer pretending we have it all together.

Authenticity will be one of the biggest factors in reaching our world. People already label Christians as hypocrites and we usually earn thag title. People want to know that you can still follow Jesus and not be perfect and have it all together. Lord knows I'm far from it, so why should I pretend?

Wednesday morning thoughts....

I don't struggle to be authentic.

Sean 07-23-2014 12:45 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 1326828)
I remember when attending a certain UPC, every once in a while we would share testimonies in the service. Whenever I got the chance, I would thank God for His Grace and Mercy in my life.

I was 21, unmarried, and in the military-- I had no shame as I testified and thanked God for His Grace and Mercy in my life.

Then, I had an older person, not elderly, but a saint who I looked up to, that person spoke with me in private and said that I shouldn't always publicly thank God for His Grace and Mercy because it makes people think that you are sinning every day.

Then I said, but I do sin everyday. Even my thoughts are sinful sometimes.

Then that person says, God knows your heart and I understand what you are saying-- but others hear what you say and think that you are living in sin and not saved. You have to be wise and you can't share everything with every body. The Lord knows and I just want you to be aware of how some church folk are. Some folks are very judgmental.


I smiled and said ok, and didn't give it too much thought because I knew that if they knew what I knew about what I was going through on a daily basis, they would be thanking God for His Grace and Mercy too!

Even right now, I look back and wonder how on earth I ever got over!


HALLELUJAH JESUS!!!



There is a simple method to end any "habitual" sins in our lives. If you care to hear my method, just ask. We should not be sinning every day. Rarely should we be sinning. It is "unnatural" for a saint to sin.

Aquila 07-23-2014 01:46 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1326907)
There is a simple method to end any "habitual" sins in our lives. If you care to hear my method, just ask. We should not be sinning every day. Rarely should we be sinning. It is "unnatural" for a saint to sin.

Please share your method Sean. It may be of great benefit to the conversation.

Jermyn Davidson 07-23-2014 01:54 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
I am thinking that driving one mile over the speed limit is sin.

If I come back from my 15 minute break at work a minute late, I have sinned.

When walking by a stranger who asks for money and I have it to give but decide not to give it, I am thinking that it is probably a sin.

I know I mentioned driving....

Then there are sins of ommission....

Then there are sins that I don't even realize are sins in the sight of God.

I am thinking that it is easy to sin when responding to some people on AFF.

Now, I am not walking around condemned because I KNOW I am saved and living by His Grace. When I pray to ask the Lord for His Mercy for my day, I am confident in His Love to forgive me and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness.


There are those who say that we can live without sinning.

I say, while I may have days where I am unaware of any sin in my life, I still prefer to keep the attitude that I am in NEED of God's Grace and Mercy every day and every day that I think about it, I will pray and ask God and thank God for His Grace and Mercy in my life.

In other words, when I think of it, I will ALWAYS ASK GOD TO FORGIVE ME OF MY SINS AND THEN I WILL THANK HIM FOR HIS GRACE AND MERCY.

This is the posture I prefer when it comes to this topic, not out of fear of hell, but because who He is, and because of who I am.

n david 07-23-2014 02:10 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 1326925)
I am thinking that driving one mile over the speed limit is sin.

If I come back from my 15 minute break at work a minute late, I have sinned.

When walking by a stranger who asks for money and I have it to give but decide not to give it, I am thinking that it is probably a sin.

I know I mentioned driving....

Then there are sins of ommission....

Then there are sins that I don't even realize are sins in the sight of God.

I am thinking that it is easy to sin when responding to some people on AFF.

You missed one -- voting for Democrats is a sure sin...














:toofunny

n david 07-23-2014 02:13 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
How is passing a beggar in the street a sin? I have given to a few, and haven't given to others. I don't believe I've sinned for not doing so.

I definitely don't believe it's a sin to speed or be late to work.

And as much as it pains me to admit it...it's not a sin to vote for Democrats.

Sean 07-23-2014 02:50 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1326924)
Please share your method Sean. It may be of great benefit to the conversation.



Thanks bro.... this ONLY works for the brethren that are desiring to get rid of any sinful addictions.....


Romans 6...We must recon ourselves "dead to sin" God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


We must realize after baptism, that we are "free from sin"....7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Now that we realize these 2 things clearly...why are we still in bondage to a particular sin?

John says this to the saints...He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So if we have a "besetting sin" we are backslid and of the devil. We must acknowledge this fact to get the victory over it.

Paul says the old man(old nature) is crucified with Christ... Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.





Now that we realize that our "old nature" is on a cross, it has been replaced with Gods' nature(the 2 cannot live in us together)...2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.



When we look at the temptation through this mindset(whatever it is), we must practice this series of steps.....


Here is what you do...

If we are "approached" with any sinful thought, we dont rebuke it or beg God to deliver us, we just say to ourselves... "I am DEAD to this and any sin, I am FREE from this and ANY sin, It is UNNATURAL for me to commit this sin".

If you do this...I guarantee the Holy Ghost will rush through you and EMPOWER you immediately. You are now RESISTING this sin BY THE HELP OF THE CROSS and the HOLY GHOST. This is EXACTLY how the Lord wants us to deal with these sins. The Lord gave you the Holy Ghost to empower you to live a sin free life daily! If you have been sinning and havent felt the Holy Ghost . You will feel the power of God immediately when you deal with it this way.



Just try it for 2 weeks faithfully, when temptation approaches you and you will see a HUGE difference in your victory over that sin and your walk with God will blossom. Then let me know what you think...

Luke 07-23-2014 02:54 PM

Re: Authenticity
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1326885)
Holiness is merely the state of being separate, absolutely distinct. What makes God so separate and absolutely distinct? Many things. Some might say His power or His knowledge. However, I believe it is His love. Power, strength, knowledge... none of that matters without motive. What is the motive of God? What is the heart of God? What is it in His very essence that makes Him "Holy"? It is my opinion that it is His love. And His love is the very essence of who and what He is.

God is said to be "holy". But nowhere, to my knowledge, is God said to be "holiness" itself. However, while God is said to be "loving", Scripture also affirms that God "is love" itself.
Therefore, when we are loving with an unfading divine love... we are holy as He is holy.

Could you please post the verse that says this specificly.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.