Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Is the taking away of the saints gonna be at Christ's second coming, or is there a way to know?

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Define "taking away" and "rapture".

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

It(the catching away, sometimes referred to as His 2nd coming for His saints) will be before His 2nd coming unto the millennial reign.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

So there will be 2 second Comings? So his final coming in which he establishes his millennial reign will be a third coming. Advents 1, 2, and 3?

What is taking place in the following verse, in your opinion?

Matthew 24:30,31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

There are separate 2nd comings...so to speak...We will be caught away independently when the BRIDEGROOM comes for us only...and the WORLD will get a Physical 2nd coming of THEIR own. They are INDEPENDENT events of each other.

Its similar to this scenario...the RAPTURE is generally in 3 or maybe more(Enoch, Elijah considered here) separate parts, but it is considered "the 1st resurrection".....Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The above verse you posted is for the whole worlds' "2nd coming" event, not the BRIDES' taking away.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

ok.

I believe there will be one second coming at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to establish His Kingdom.

As to the OP and the question of the rapture. I believe in a rapture but I do not care for the term because of the connotations that go along with it in the theological world today. I do not believe we will be "caught away" but we will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air. It is more about the change that takes place, when mortality becomes immortality than it is the actual catching up. After Jesus gathers His bride to himself in the air, we will immediately return with him and war will be waged on earth and His earthly Kingdom will be established.

I do not believe in two phases to the second coming or two phases to the First Resurrection.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

The RAPTURE doctrine was created by John Nelson Darby and popularized by Cirrus I Scoffield.

It is a brand new doctrine.
For almost 2,000 years no one in the church ever taught the RAPTURE doctrine.

They who teach the rapture are all greedy preachers that preach the Rapture in order to sell books and make money.

GREEED, GREED, I Tell you it is GREED :heeheehee

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

I understand your post trib point of view, but maybe consider this here.....


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


I think the GROUP of verse 31 is the SAME group as Matt 25 here.....31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



But please notice the "taking away" of the bride first...25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. This is our 2nd coming

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

There is going to a resurrection, for both saints, and dead. The exact timeline of how those events will take place is for God to know, and us to find out. We are to look for Christ coming as He left in the clouds... that is our hope, but as to what the timeline is of the saints and dead being resurrected remains the knowledge of God himself.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

It is funny you bring this up. I was watching something about the bible and they brought this up. They talked about how some woman in Scotland had a "revelation" about being taken away by God back to heaven. And that is how the rapture talk got started.

They did not go into it anymore then that. But are you saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 was added by Darby and Scoffield?

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Im pre trib, but it is with an asterisk. I am hoping for a rapture before the tribulation for all of our sakes. The amount of passages I am aware of are pretty solidly substantiate that way. But as you say...only the Lord knows.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 has always been in the Bible, :smack

but the interpretation given by Darby and Scoffield is new.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

The Tribulation spoken in the Bible has already happened in 70 AD.
It was the destruction of Jerusalem.
Only greedy preachers who want to sell rapture books teach the rapture doctrine.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Rats...we lost this thread to the preterists...LOL. FZ, I bowed out of that debate in the debate room. You guys better stick to debating feasts. I cant do the feasts, I already struggle with weight gain...LOL

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

:thumbsup

Well maybe we could try the feasts in place of all of our traditional holidays and the resulting wait gain would be less!

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

At 53 years old, feasts of any kind are not in my best interest physically. Maybe we need to start an anti-feast movement...LOL

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Maybe the Jehova's witless are onto something, they do not celebrate birthdays or any festive days. Kind of depressing if you ask me, but I guess it keeps them healthy or perhaps it is all that walking? :heeheehee

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Well, when I get on a binge, I eat like a horse and have to walk a few miles to try to burn it off. It is challenging, when our metabolism slooooows down, our eating should also...LOL.

BTW...They have some decent points regarding some holidays, but they use it as a foot in the door to get a study going. I tolerate that stuff to a degree, but some of the holidays have too much paganism in them to acnowledge them as legitimate for us to participate in.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Nails it :yourock

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

I have never sold one book and been teaching the rapture (post trib" for decades.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

I have been teaching the rapture (post trib) for decades and never charged one cent.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Michael, the pre-trib concept is closer to the "sleeping bride" that is mentioned in the Gospels and epistles. If the bride was being persecuted by governments and exposed to the wrath of God of the book of Revelation, you would never imagine any of the bride to be caught unaware. Matt 25 shows us half of the bride left behind and the door shut. Just consider that if you would.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Please teach me. seriously.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

This is a "concept". The post trib rapture is chock full of scriptural proof.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Sure. Keep watching.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Post Tribulation Rapture Part1

Jesus said he would come for his elect after the great tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31

Some say this "elect" only refers to the Jews. However note the Apostle Paul writing to a GENTILE Church refers to them as the elect.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Colossians 3:12

So in reality Jesus speaks to his elect whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Apostle Paul wrote this to the Thessalonian Church.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul tells them when they will receive their rest from Jesus. Did he tell them it would be before the events that take place in the great tribulation? No rather he says it will be when Jesus comes with his mighty angels in great power. He says it would be when Jesus comes wrecking judgment and taking vengeance on the wicked of this world. It was at that time Paul taught Jesus would come.

Paul continues in his teaching to the Thessalonians. They were having questions about the timing of the Lords return, what we call today the "rapture".

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

He tells them expressly the things that withold the revelation of Jesus Christ. There would take place a great falling away first. Then the man of sin
(the beast) would be revealed. This man of sin would set himself up to be worshipped as god.

The prophet Daniel gives some insight about this prophetic figure.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:36-37

This evil King must first appear on Earth before the rapture.

It is also interesting to note the similarity of thought between the way Paul starts the exhortation in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

And the wording of Jesus about his coming in Matt. 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Each of them mentions the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to him. In my opinion this leaves no doubt they are both telling about the same event.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Post Tribulation Rapture Pt2

Apostle Paul had previously written this to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here he deals with both the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. He puts both events happening about the same time. If we can pinpoint the timing of the resurrection we will also be discovering the timing of the rapture.

The Apostle gives more light in his writing to the Corinthians.

1 Cor. 15:51-52

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are told plainly that the dead will be raised and all saints will be changed at the last trump.

So the trumpet that sounds at the coming of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that raises the dead must be this same trumpet. In this scripture however we are given the revelation that this trumpet is THE LAST TRUMP.

Our next step is to zero in on when the LAST TRUMPET sounds if possible. Is it possible? Definitely!

If one follows the sequence of the book of Revelation we see there are seven trumpets that lead up to the coming of Jesus. The seventh or LAST TRUMP is blown right here.

Rev. 11:15-18

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So the last trump is when Jesus comes to "rapture" or gather together his saints. We can see very plainly when it occurs in the book of Revelation. It is at the same time Jesus Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world and begins to rule over them!

This obviously happens after the tribulation. It is the time when the dead are judged and rewarded. This puts us at Pauls teaching to the saints back to these two scriptures proving they are post trib in context.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52

One more proof text should be sufficient to show the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead are post tribulation events.

Rev. 20:1-6

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we see the FIRST RESURRECTION has taken place. It is after saints have been killed for refusing to take the mark of the beast. That means the first resurrection is after the great tribulation.

So this effectively removes the scripture pre trib teachers use the most to prove their doctrine.

1 Thessalonian 4:16-17

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Since resurrection and rapture are similtaneous and the first resurrection is after the trib these two scriptures can be identified as not teaching a pre but rather a post tribulation rapture.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Post Tribulation Rapture Pt3


Another way of proving the post tribulation rapture is by focusing in on what the Apostles called the "day of Christ" or the "day of the Lord".

Before we begin its important to understand this is not speaking of two different days. Rather the day of Christ and the day of the Lord are speaking of the same day.

How do we prove this? Simple.

Acts 2:36

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Paul says Jesus is BOTH Lord and Christ. Therefore the day of the Lord is the day of Christ. The day of the LORD JESUS CHRIST is also the same thing.

Now the scriptures that speak of the day of Christ or of "the Lord" speak about his coming as we will see.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8

1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 5:5

5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor. 1:14

1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Phillipians 1:6

1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phillipians 1:10

1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Phillipians 2:16

2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ,[/b] that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

2 Peter 3:10

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So far we see eight scripture portions that tell of "the day of Christ".

I will show you one more which in context will prove that this day of Christs coming to "rapture" his saints will NOT OCCUR at any moment as the pre trib rapture doctrine declares.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So the day of Christ is his coming and the Apostle says it will NOT COME UNTIL AFTER THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED.

The man of sin is the "beast" of the book of Revelation. The one that makes war with the saints. The one who forces all to worship him or take his mark.

Paul lets us know the Church will NOT BE RAPTURED until this takes place.

Have you ever been told you may have to die for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? Are you aware that thousands die every year because they believe in him around the world?

At the end time there will be a tremendous wave of persecution against the saints. Its important to understand this or there would be no point in scripture speaking so much about it.

We as disciples of Jesus need to set our minds on things above. We need to dwell in the secret place of the Most High. We need to be in a place where we are being led by the Spirit and abiding in the love and fellowship of Jesus.

If ours is the generation that is alive when these things happen we will need to avail ourselves of all the Holy Spirit fire and power and love thats possible.

Jesus said "whoever endures to the end will be saved".

Many have already been slain for Jesus Christ over the centuries. They esteemed the walk they had with Jesus and his manifestation to them greater than living another day in this world.

Is that the way you feel about Jesus? He will give you all the grace you need to be an overcomer unto the death.

The reward thats waiting.....eternal life with him. This is what we live for whether we mat be called upon to lay down our lives literally or not.

We all have to die somehow. May Jesus help us to be like his Apostles who when they were beaten for his name "rejoiced they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name".

If you really know him you know it will be worth it all when we SEE HIM!

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Brother I was kidding, the greedy preachers comment was an indirect jab at Sean, he knows what I am talking about.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Peace and love:highfive

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Michael, that is a great series of posts you did. However, may I rebut them? I have not put together anything to that effect, but I differ with you in some of those interpretations(which, I am sure that you are aware of). I dont think anyone actually knows exactly when Jesus will return in the Tribulation, but our opinion is of value to our message we preach to the world. Thanks

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Its a free forum go for it. However did you READ my studies? If you actually DO you probably wont need to try to refute it because you will see the truth.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

No I didnt, I dont have anything on paper myself, just a head full of passages and their interpretations. I used SFT all these years and got into it with mid and post trib folks from time to time, but I know where you are going and where you stand, just by reading your posts. Keep in mind, with me, it it my point of view and we are only talking about the timing of the Lords' return.

Its no big deal between us bro., but I believe my message is a greater message of hope than post trib. And I think I have enough of the scripture to confidently teach it.


I realize I am up against one of the "greats" in Irvin Baxter. I just heard him get smoked though by a trinitarian on a TV program debate recently. When I saw that, I realized this concept was still up for grabs and nobody, including myself, has it set in stone.

My rebuttal will be only to give us a different point of view if you dont mind.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

To me its a big deal as with all the teachings of Yeshua. He gave them to us disciples that we may benefit from them. Obviously the pre trib would be a nicer hope IF IT WERE TRUE. Just like OSAS.

However since its is a false hope it cannot profit the saints but rather deceive them. That's why Paul said "let no man deceive you by any means that day shall not come unless there be a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition".

As for as Bro Baxter goes I did not learn this from him. I saw this in 1976 after the leader of our street ministry corrected me after we had a discussion about it.

We both were pre trib but he had come to greater truth. In short order he convinced me because the post trib was far more weighty in scripture.

I heard of Irvin Baxter about 4 years later after I had become Oneness.

BTW what is SFT?

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Hi Michael. What do you think of II Thessalonians 2:7? " For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way".
I was always taught the "He" is the Holy Ghost within believers who will be taken away or raptured pre-trib. Thanks for your response.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

I would like to just make known, to start, a PRECEDENT that the Bible has consistently given us concerning the wrath of God on the world. When God was sending HIS judgement, (not mans' judgement), the "righteous" were spared from having to face the wrath of God.

Enoch was removed before the worldwide flood.

Noah was removed(in the ark) from the worldwide flood.

Lot was removed prior to the complete destruction by God of Sodom an Gomorrah.

Many times in the O.T., the Lord literally destroyed the armies that were encompassed around Israel(as long as the Lord had declared them RIGHTEOUS)

The 1st century Christians were given a sign to escape the Wrath of God on Jerusalem, through the Roman empire in 70ad.

Jesus promised that tribulation would come, but when the righteous were faced with decimation, God delivered His righteous ones.

The great Tribulation is not about mans wrath on mankind, but GODS' wrath on sinners. The book of Revelation shows us BILLIONS of souls slain BY GOD as the calamities are coming from God Himself. God WILL NOT destroy the righteous with the wicked...our father Abraham got it from the Lord himself here... Gen 18

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.



This is how the Lord operates, prior to HIS WRATH being poured out on mankind. The righteous WILL be removed first, then WRATH will come.

Notice this passage is in the same context as the 'catching away" in 1 Thes. 4....

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is my intro, rebuttals will follow...

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

BTW what is SFT?


Michael, it is Search for Truth...I am sure you heard of that, right?

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Heading to work will catch up with you tomorrow Lord willing.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

I am not a scholar by any means. Sean and MTD both seem so much more advanced in the scripture thank myself. It I would love to engage in the dialog here because it has been of great interest to me in the last coupe years. I do want to say..there are many great men of God in my life that are solidly pre-trib. Some of the greatest scholars and bible teachers I know are pre-trib...so I mean absolutely no disrespect when I disagree with the pre-trib view point.

One of my greatest fears of pre-trib teaching is a false sense of security. A feeling of exemption from tribulation and persecution when Jesus promised both.

Re: Is there going to be a rapture????
 

Read a book by an Apostolic Brother a while back that used this scripture to establish a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. If that is the case the same logic would have to be used in the beginning of chapter 1 as well.


1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.