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Jacob's Ladder 09-04-2014 01:03 PM

A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Have you ever wondered whether we will actually recognize and/or know each other in heaven? I remember the apostles had a difficult time recognizing Jesus after his resurrection. Seriously, there will be millions of saints there. How will we find each other? Will we remember each other? A few people have quoted 1Corinthians 13:12 to affirm that we will know each other, but have you really studied that scripture?

Another thought that popped into my mind while reading the following…….

1 Corinthians 15:42

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

1Corinthinas 15:50-54

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”



Notice the bolded words. The imperishable can’t inherit the perishable, but at the sound of the trumpet, only then shall we become imperishable. After the trumpet sounds, the dead and living shall be transformed. The perishable must put on the imperishable and the mortal must put on immortality.

How can an individual after death inherit an imperishable heaven when they have not been changed into imperishable status? According to the bible, we are changed into imperishable status only after the trumpet sounds. Prior to the trumpet sounding, the bible reads that, “nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable,” which signifies that we are imperishable prior to the trumpet sounding.

Do the saints really go to heaven after their death……….hmm……..lol

Michael The Disciple 09-04-2014 02:16 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder (Post 1334177)
Have you ever wondered whether we will actually recognize and/or know each other in heaven? I remember the apostles had a difficult time recognizing Jesus after his resurrection. Seriously, there will be millions of saints there. How will we find each other? Will we remember each other? A few people have quoted 1Corinthians 13:12 to affirm that we will know each other, but have you really studied that scripture?

Another thought that popped into my mind while reading the following…….

1 Corinthians 15:42

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

1Corinthinas 15:50-54

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”



Notice the bolded words. The imperishable can’t inherit the perishable, but at the sound of the trumpet, only then shall we become imperishable. After the trumpet sounds, the dead and living shall be transformed. The perishable must put on the imperishable and the mortal must put on immortality.

How can an individual after death inherit an imperishable heaven when they have not been changed into imperishable status? According to the bible, we are changed into imperishable status only after the trumpet sounds. Prior to the trumpet sounding, the bible reads that, “nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable,” which signifies that we are imperishable prior to the trumpet sounding.

Do the saints really go to heaven after their death……….hmm……..lol

No they don't. They sleep the sleep of death until Jesus comes in the resurrection.

CC1 09-04-2014 09:13 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1334183)
No they don't. They sleep the sleep of death until Jesus comes in the resurrection.

Like pretty much everything else in the bible the idea of "soul sleep" is debatable with a lot of different views.

ixoye_val69 09-05-2014 05:42 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
I think this is going to turn into an interesting debate. ;) I am anxious to read the posts because I also have wondered about this very thing. Great question. I love this forum. :)

Lafon 09-05-2014 08:06 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1334269)
Like pretty much everything else in the bible the idea of "soul sleep" is debatable with a lot of different views.

Isn't that because most people fail to obey the commandment of Proverbs 3:5?

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; AND LEAN NOT UNTO THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING ?

Trusting in our (inherited) carnal mind for the understanding of the principles of God's written Word, instead of SEEKING, ASKING, & KNOCKING, as commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:7), will ALWAYS bring about "different views"!

Sean 09-05-2014 08:21 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder (Post 1334177)
Have you ever wondered whether we will actually recognize and/or know each other in heaven? I remember the apostles had a difficult time recognizing Jesus after his resurrection. Seriously, there will be millions of saints there. How will we find each other? Will we remember each other? A few people have quoted 1Corinthians 13:12 to affirm that we will know each other, but have you really studied that scripture?

Another thought that popped into my mind while reading the following…….

1 Corinthians 15:42

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

1Corinthinas 15:50-54

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”



Notice the bolded words. The imperishable can’t inherit the perishable, but at the sound of the trumpet, only then shall we become imperishable. After the trumpet sounds, the dead and living shall be transformed. The perishable must put on the imperishable and the mortal must put on immortality.

How can an individual after death inherit an imperishable heaven when they have not been changed into imperishable status? According to the bible, we are changed into imperishable status only after the trumpet sounds. Prior to the trumpet sounding, the bible reads that, “nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable,” which signifies that we are imperishable prior to the trumpet sounding.

Do the saints really go to heaven after their death……….hmm……..lol



Death is compared to sleep, even by Jesus concerning Lazarus His friend.

Before we receive our resurrected bodies, we are probably in a "sleep dream" state, while the wicked are in a "sleep nightmare" state. I have not studied this out in depth, but the Bible clearly says that all the dead are in some type of sleep. However, they are very aware of their surroundings.

Steve Epley 09-05-2014 08:42 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Peter, James, John knew Moses and Elijah on the Mountain?

Carl 09-05-2014 09:02 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1334326)
Peter, James, John knew Moses and Elijah on the Mountain?

This is something I've always wondered about. How did they know who it was.
Well they had seen their pictures in a bible story book probably! Seriously, they were either told that is who it was or somehow they were able to recognize them. After all they had read everything Moses and Elijah had written.

Lafon 09-05-2014 09:06 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1334323)
Death is compared to sleep, even by Jesus concerning Lazarus His friend.

Before we receive our resurrected bodies, we are probably in a "sleep dream" state, while the wicked are in a "sleep nightmare" state. I have not studied this out in depth, but the Bible clearly says that all the dead are in some type of sleep. However, they are very aware of their surroundings.

Sean, aren't your statements "speculative," seeing you tender NO scriptural support for them? If one desires that others accept that which they state to be true, I've always found it best to provide a specific text, or two, to authenticate what I proclaim as truth, for in so doing it then becomes what "saith the word of the Lord" which convicts others to accept it, and not my word alone.

In stating this, I would challenge you to provide me even a single passage of scripture in support of your claim that the dead (wicked or righteous) "are very aware of their surroundings." I will agree with you, however, that the "dead are in some type of sleep," for the language of the Bible makes this fact rather indisputably clear.

Indeed, what does "the word of the Lord" reveal about the intermediate state of reality which the soul experiences following the death of the physical body in which it presently exists? The answer, I believe, is clearly stated in these words excerpted from Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ...

"For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

Note of importance: the words "the memory of them is forgotten" does not imply/infer that those who knew the dead when they were alive and residing among them will FORGET them or fail to retain REMEMBRANCE of them after an individual dies, rather that the ability of the one that has died to remember things will cease to exist, for that soul KNOWS NOT ANY THING!

Minus quoting a multitude of scriptural passages which give authenticity to the claim that the soul of man continues its existence in what we might rightly call a "suspended state of animation, or liveliness" (aka, "sleep") following the death of the body in which they resided while "alive" and resident upon the earth (both wicked & righteous), nevertheless, there exists a "mystery" that surrounds this which it appears most people simply fail to understand, and this has resulted in much "speculative conclusions" which have led to much confusion about the matter. Paul attempted to address this "mystery" in these words found recorded in I Corinthians 15:51-52 ...

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The "mystery" which Paul was endeavoring to reveal, was NOT that there would be some who would not experience what is commonly called "soul sleep" following the death of their body, as many, yes, the majority have believed and continue to publicly proclaim, rather he was stating, and this quite simply, that there were to be SOME to whom God would grant a "temporary suspension" (if I might use this phrase) from experiencing the common affect which death brings, that is, the "sleep of death" (see Psalm 13:3), however, this "temporary suspension" would only endure UNTIL that moment which immediately precedes the 2nd coming of the "Son of man" to the earth at the end of the present age.

There's much, much more to this "mystery" that could, and needs to be written, however, neither time nor space allows me to do that at this time. Suffice it to be said though, that much of what has been, and continues to be published as truth about this matter, is thoroughly saturated with numerous erroneous assumptions and conclusions, making the truth of the matter difficult to be explained.

KeptByTheWord 09-05-2014 09:06 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
And, I've always wondered about those who were resurrected after the death of Jesus and were seen walking around.

Carl 09-05-2014 09:09 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean (Post 1334323)
Death is compared to sleep, even by Jesus concerning Lazarus His friend.

Before we receive our resurrected bodies, we are probably in a "sleep dream" state, while the wicked are in a "sleep nightmare" state. I have not studied this out in depth, but the Bible clearly says that all the dead are in some type of sleep. However, they are very aware of their surroundings.

This is why I don't like to use the term "soul sleep". Because for some it is similar to the immortal soul belief with a limited consciousness in death. If sleep is a metaphor for death that would not mean awareness. Where does the bible say the dead are aware of their surroundings? There are scriptures which say the dead not nothing.

Lafon 09-05-2014 09:33 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1334335)
And, I've always wondered about those who were resurrected after the death of Jesus and were seen walking around.

And .... where might it be found written in the Bible that those of whom you note "were seen walking around"? A curious mind seeks to know.

Lafon 09-05-2014 09:41 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ixoye_val69 (Post 1334295)
I think this is going to turn into an interesting debate. ;) I am anxious to read the posts because I also have wondered about this very thing. Great question. I love this forum. :)

I truly do commend you for expressing an interest to learn the truth about this important matter, however, as you can see, that is if you've read the things that have already been written by others, it can be extremely difficult, if not altogether impossible, to "weed" through it all and be successful in arriving at a definitive, scriptural-based understanding. If I could but offer this bit of advise: Always confirm the words of others, and that includes yours truly, with that which the sacred written word of God reveals about matters of importance such as that being discussed here. :thumbsup

Lafon 09-05-2014 09:47 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 1334326)
Peter, James, John knew Moses and Elijah on the Mountain?

Bro Epley, I don't mean to sound mean or condescending in stating this, but I must wonder how your posting adds anything to the issue being addressed here, seeing that it ends with a question mark, but nothing added which might serve to answer it. If you've introduced yourself into this discussion in order to give your opinion about the matter, then may I ask that you do a bit more than cause more questions to arise without providing an answer to any. Not being harsh, just being candid. :foottap

Carl 09-05-2014 10:04 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafon (Post 1334343)
And .... where might it be found written in the Bible that those of whom you note "were seen walking around"? A curious mind seeks to know.

Matthew 27:52-53.

Evang.Benincasa 09-05-2014 10:12 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafon (Post 1334349)
Bro Epley, I don't mean to sound mean or condescending in stating this, but I must wonder how your posting adds anything to the issue being addressed here, seeing that it ends with a question mark, but nothing added which might serve to answer it. If you've introduced yourself into this discussion in order to give your opinion about the matter, then may I ask that you do a bit more than cause more questions to arise without providing an answer to any. Not being harsh, just being candid. :foottap

Wow look at you post! Man you must of had yourself a steak with eggs and bacon this morning!

Lafon 09-05-2014 11:27 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1334356)
Wow look at you post! Man you must of had yourself a steak with eggs and bacon this morning!

Sir, I know you do not mean to intentionally disparage me, but your subtle derogatory remarks are rather hurtful, and this because you know absolutely nothing about me or my situation, so please bear with me for just a moment & I will try to enlighten you.

I have been afflicted with a most devastating lung disease, known in medical terminology as Idopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis. The mortality rate for those who have been afflicted with this disease is, for the greater part, 100%, that is unless one is able to receive a lung transplant. That is not an option available to me for, being almost 76 years old, I am deemed much too aged to even be considered for such a procedure. The average lifespan of those afflicted with this disease is between 4-6 years, and I am most blessed, for I have had it for much longer than this.

My mobility, for the most part, is confined to a wheel chair and a motorized scooter. I also must be attached to an Oxygen Concentrator 24/7, and have portable Oxygen cylinders to attach to my scooter whenever I must leave my home. On days such as today when I am able to breathe better than I do on most days, I enjoy sitting at my PC and communicating with others about issues that are of interest to me.

Just so you know, and now I pray that you will be blessed!

Aquila 09-05-2014 01:04 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Again, some Pentecostals prove INCAPABLE of categorical thinking.

There are three distinct aspects to man's being:

Body - The physical aspect of a man, the body.
Soul - The mind, the seat of reason, will, and emotions.
Spirit - The very breath of life or living essence.

When a man dies, his body is placed in the grave and is unconscious or aware of anything. Therefore, as it relates to a man's body he may be said to be "sleeping". Upon death, the soul leaves the body and enters into the presence of the Lord. Therefore, as it relates to a man's soul he may be said to be in Heaven with the Lord. Upon death, the spirit also leaves the body with the soul and returns to God who gave it.

Therefore, one can be both sleeping in the grave knowing nothing and yet consciously present in Heaven with the Lord. The "Sleepers" incapability to think in categorical terms causes them to always assert false dichotomies that leave them debating among other Christians and using Scripture to assumedly cancel Scripture. In this, they cause the Bible to oppose itself.

Trust me, when Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with the Lord, they weren't wiping their eyes wondering what had happened the during all the time they had been dead. In Revelation, the souls of the martyrs seek consolation in Heaven and they are assured that their deaths will be avenged when their brethren had finally endured as they had. Then they are given white robes to signify their righteousness and faithfulness rewarded.

Remember, the Old Testament is INCOMPLETE. It is fulfilled, defined by, and additional information is revealed in the New Testament.

Lafon 09-05-2014 01:19 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1334379)
Again, some Pentecostals prove INCAPABLE of categorical thinking.

There are three distinct aspects to man's being:

Body - The physical aspect of a man, the body.
Soul - The mind, the seat of reason, will, and emotions.
Spirit - The very breath of life or living essence.


When a man dies, his body is placed in the grave and is unconscious or aware of anything. Therefore, as it relates to a man's body he may be said to be "sleeping". Upon death, the soul leaves the body and enters into the presence of the Lord. Therefore, as it relates to a man's soul he may be said to be in Heaven with the Lord. Upon death, the spirit also leaves the body with the soul and returns to God who gave it.

Therefore, one can be both sleeping in the grave knowing nothing and yet consciously present in Heaven with the Lord. The "Sleepers" incapability to think in categorical terms causes them to always assert false dichotomies that leave them debating among other Christians and using Scripture to assumedly cancel Scripture. In this, they cause the Bible to oppose itself.

Trust me, when Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with the Lord, they weren't wiping their eyes wondering what had happened the during all the time they had been dead. In Revelation, the souls of the martyrs seek consolation in Heaven and they are assured that their deaths will be avenged when their brethren had finally endured as they had. Then they are given white robes to signify their righteousness and faithfulness rewarded.

Remember, the Old Testament is INCOMPLETE. It is fulfilled, defined by, and additional information is revealed in the New Testament.

I would be quick to agree that you have gotten the part of your statements that I've highlighted correctly, for Paul alluded to this fact in his writings of I Thessalonians 5:23, however, regarding the remaining portion of your posting, I must regrettably confess to you, that it is, in my opinion, thoroughly saturated with what I can only classify as "speculative platitudes," seeing that they are destitute of any scriptural evidence which would serve to authenticate their veracity.

Carl 09-05-2014 01:33 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1334379)
Again, some Pentecostals prove INCAPABLE of categorical thinking.

There are three distinct aspects to man's being:

Body - The physical aspect of a man, the body.
Soul - The mind, the seat of reason, will, and emotions.
Spirit - The very breath of life or living essence.

When a man dies, his body is placed in the grave and is unconscious or aware of anything. Therefore, as it relates to a man's body he may be said to be "sleeping". Upon death, the soul leaves the body and enters into the presence of the Lord. Therefore, as it relates to a man's soul he may be said to be in Heaven with the Lord. Upon death, the spirit also leaves the body with the soul and returns to God who gave it.

Therefore, one can be both sleeping in the grave knowing nothing and yet consciously present in Heaven with the Lord. The "Sleepers" incapability to think in categorical terms causes them to always assert false dichotomies that leave them debating among other Christians and using Scripture to assumedly cancel Scripture. In this, they cause the Bible to oppose itself.

Trust me, when Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with the Lord, they weren't wiping their eyes wondering what had happened the during all the time they had been dead. In Revelation, the souls of the martyrs seek consolation in Heaven and they are assured that their deaths will be avenged when their brethren had finally endured as they had. Then they are given white robes to signify their righteousness and faithfulness rewarded.

Remember, the Old Testament is INCOMPLETE. It is fulfilled, defined by, and additional information is revealed in the New Testament.


There is life, then death, then the resurrection. That is very categorical.

Jacob's Ladder 09-05-2014 01:37 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Really, think about it. First, what will our state of mind be when arriving to heaven? Will we think about our loved ones? If we are able, how will we find them? How will we locate loved ones in the midst of millions of saints? I have problems running into old friends in the city I live in, populated by 180,000 or so individuals.

A year or two ago, I was bothered about what occurred after to us after death. Now I just leave it in God’s capable hands. However, I was taught that we go to heaven after death. After reading multiple scriptures, it would seem that we just soul sleep until the resurrection. However, there is a passage that keeps me from completely believing that we soul sleep.

Check this out…..

Philippians 1
22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.


Here is the Jacob’s Ladder translation of verse 22:

There are two places I can choose. I can leave and be with Christ, which is much better, but it is more necessary for your sake that I remain in the body, here with you, rather than leaving to be with Christ.


Paul makes it seem that he had two options at that time, either leaving to be with Christ or remaining in the body. We must then consider Paul’s method of transportation to Christ. When Paul made the statement of desiring to be with Christ, was it through death that he would be with Christ. Was Paul saying in verse Philippians 1:23 “I desire to die and be with Christ?” Could Paul have been inferring that there is another method of transportation to be with Christ that excluded death?



Paul then goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will receive our reward at the last trumpet, eternal life. So how can we be eternal after death when the trumpet has yet to sound?


However, even Peter confessed that Paul’s comments were hard to understand.

2 Peter 3:16 reads, “speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.”


So……I don’t know…….

Lafon 09-05-2014 03:33 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder (Post 1334390)
Really, think about it. First, what will our state of mind be when arriving to heaven? Will we think about our loved ones? If we are able, how will we find them? How will we locate loved ones in the midst of millions of saints? I have problems running into old friends in the city I live in, populated by 180,000 or so individuals.

A year or two ago, I was bothered about what occurred after to us after death. Now I just leave it in God’s capable hands. However, I was taught that we go to heaven after death. After reading multiple scriptures, it would seem that we just soul sleep until the resurrection. However, there is a passage that keeps me from completely believing that we soul sleep.

Check this out…..

Philippians 1
22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,
26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.


Here is the Jacob’s Ladder translation of verse 22:

There are two places I can choose. I can leave and be with Christ, which is much better, but it is more necessary for your sake that I remain in the body, here with you, rather than leaving to be with Christ.


Paul makes it seem that he had two options at that time, either leaving to be with Christ or remaining in the body. We must then consider Paul’s method of transportation to Christ. When Paul made the statement of desiring to be with Christ, was it through death that he would be with Christ. Was Paul saying in verse Philippians 1:23 “I desire to die and be with Christ?” Could Paul have been inferring that there is another method of transportation to be with Christ that excluded death?



Paul then goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will receive our reward at the last trumpet, eternal life. So how can we be eternal after death when the trumpet has yet to sound?


However, even Peter confessed that Paul’s comments were hard to understand.

2 Peter 3:16 reads, “speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.”


So……I don’t know…….

Let's examine the scriptures to learn the answer to your first question: "What will our minds be when first arriving to heaven?"

I encourage you to consider that which this passage advises - Isaiah 65:17

"For, behold, i create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, not come into mind."

Should we not interpret this statement to imply that those fortunate enough to have the "new earth" as their eternal home, will NOT remember anything about the present one, or anything that happened herein while we were its residents? I think so! Perhaps this statement will also help you to understanding that we need not worry about trying to find loved ones if we make it to this "new earth," for should we encounter them we would not even recognize them. I believe that also includes our wives, husbands, children, parents, siblings, etc.

Yes, the language of the Bible does reveal that the soul "sleeps" in death. In fact, David explicitly stated such, as written in Psalm 13:3: "... lest I sleep the sleep of death."

Regarding Paul's statements of Philippians 1:21-24, please note that he "desired" that his soul depart his physical body through death, yet was troubled about this "desire" because he knew that he would be more helpful to the saints if it be that he remained "alive" a while longer. And, indeed, there is a "mystery" about that which Paul penned, as attested to by Peter's remarks of II Peter 3:16. Sadly, even there be those who are saints, because they have failed, or been unwilling to seek God for an understanding of the things which Paul wrote about "these things," they are guilty of fulfilling the prophecy that "they which are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Perhaps later, if I am able to "muster up" sufficient strength, and if The Lord be willing, I will try to sit here and explain what the intricate details are of that which Paul wrote about "these things" which so many seem to "wrestle" with, for I am irrevocably persuaded The Lord has graciously revealed that knowledge to me and I am more than willing to share it with others for their prayerful consideration of its scriptural merits.

Submitted with the warmest of regards.

Jacob's Ladder 09-05-2014 04:57 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafon (Post 1334415)
Let's examine the scriptures to learn the answer to your first question: "What will our minds be when first arriving to heaven?"

I encourage you to consider that which this passage advises - Isaiah 65:17

"For, behold, i create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, not come into mind."

It is difficult to comprehend such actions on God’s behalf. He created us and gave us families. How can God possibly zap our minds and allow us to forget those that loved us and raised us from adolescence? If you think about it, after death we will never recognize our fathers, mothers, sisters, bothers, children, etc. They are gone for eternity. The love that God ingrained into us toward family will be obsolete. The very fabric of God is love, family, and unity. I cannot comprehend that.

Lafon 09-05-2014 05:12 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder (Post 1334418)
It is difficult to comprehend such actions on God’s behalf. He created us and gave us families. How can God possibly zap our minds and allow us to forget those that loved us and raised us from adolescence? If you think about it, after death we will never recognize our fathers, mothers, sisters, bothers, children, etc. They are gone for eternity. The love that God ingrained into us toward family will be obsolete. The very fabric of God is love, family, and unity. I cannot comprehend that.

But ..... isn't THAT what Gods's infallible, inerrant written Word explicitly states? We are commanded to believe it! If not, we are "doubting" God, and that's extremely dangerous.

And, remember, Paul, in the opening remarks of his letter to Titus, reminds us that God "CANNOT LIE"! (see Titus 1:2, KJV)

As for me, albeit i most assuredly love my family, including wife, children, parents, etc., nevertheless I am reminded of these words of our Lord:

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (see Matthew 10:37,KJV).

Jesus was not saying we should not love father, mother, son or daughter, only that we order the priority of our love correctly... Him first and all others afterwards. After all, whom should we be most desirous of seeing when we get to heaven, if not our Lord and Savior!

Lafon 09-05-2014 05:16 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
I'm not stating that I understand all of the "whys" of the manner in which God operates, nevertheless, because He said it, and we're commanded to believe it, therefore I do. I'm confident that God knows what's best!

Lafon 09-05-2014 05:23 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder (Post 1334418)
It is difficult to comprehend such actions on God’s behalf. He created us and gave us families. How can God possibly zap our minds and allow us to forget those that loved us and raised us from adolescence? If you think about it, after death we will never recognize our fathers, mothers, sisters, bothers, children, etc. They are gone for eternity. The love that God ingrained into us toward family will be obsolete. The very fabric of God is love, family, and unity. I cannot comprehend that.

Sometimes even our own words serve to prevent us from comprehending the truth of the things that are written in the Bible. I point this out, noting that you explicitly state "I CANNOT comprehend that," which gives free reign to the enemy to increase his efforts to persuade you to disregard the commandment of Proverbs 3:5-6, KJV:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean NOT unto thine own understanding. In ALL THY WAYS acknowledge him, AND HE SHALL DIRECT THY PATHS."

I pray you're able to comprehend that.

Lafon 09-05-2014 05:27 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
After dinner, I will try, The Lord willing, to use my PC, which will enable me to expound upon this matter much better than I'm able to do so using my iPad as I am doing at the moment.

Jacob's Ladder 09-05-2014 05:38 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
I have not placed my family before God, but I do care about my family. I realize I must accept God’s word, and I do.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafon (Post 1334419)
But ..... isn't THAT what Gods's infallible, inerrant written Word explicitly states? We are commanded to believe it! If not, we are "doubting" God, and that's extremely dangerous.

And, remember, Paul, in the opening remarks of his letter to Titus, reminds us that God "CANNOT LIE"! (see Titus 1:2, KJV)

As for me, albeit i most assuredly love my family, including wife, children, parents, etc., nevertheless I am reminded of these words of our Lord:

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (see Matthew 10:37,KJV).

Jesus was not saying we should not love father, mother, son or daughter, only that we order the priority of our love correctly... Him first and all others afterwards. After all, whom should we be most desirous of seeing when we get to heaven, if not our Lord and Savior!


Lafon 09-05-2014 08:30 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
When many, even adherents to Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal doctrines, read Paul's statements of I Corinthians 15:51-52, they mistakenly "assume," that is, in my learned opinion, he was stating that God will, at that future moment of our Lord's glorious return, grant an "exemption" to an unspecified number of His chosen people from experiencing the affect which death brings, that is what is commonly called "soul sleep."

The proponents of this belief are persuaded that, instead, God will remove them (bodily) from the earth and bring them into His presence upon the clouds of heaven. Proponents of this belief also adhere to the erroneous teaching which asserts that at some place in the stratosphere between heaven and earth, the physical bodies of those to whom this special and unique privilege will be granted, will undergo a "change" from a body made of earthly substance to one that will consist of a heavenly substance that will be fit for "kingdom living."

Sounds teriffic, right? Certainly, but its altogether nothing more than a fancifully crafted fabrication by the enemy; one designed to hinder, prevent, and thereby render null and void that which the sacred scriptures reveals about the matter, while at the same time, direct one's attention away from that which is really prophesied to take place during that period which precedes this "alleged" event, and this because the proponents of the enemy's non-biblical version of end-time prophetic events, are also those who embrace a belief in that "alleged" event known as the "rapture of the church."

Let's see if we can determine, from the scriptural record, that which it discloses concerning these matters.

You see, when Paul wrote "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," then the first question we must seek to locate a scriptural response for is this: "WHO are those to whom the privilege of not experiencing the common affect of death, that is, "the sleep of death," are that God will grant this exception to?" Surely, if it be true, as Paul expressly states, that the souls (inferred) of "some" will NOT "sleep" in death, then there would have to be found recorded somewhere in the scriptural record the identity of such individuals, even the numbers to whom this unique "exemption" would be granted! So, where does one find such information? Well, the answer is found in the following statements our Lord spoke to His chosen apostles, while in private converstion with them shortly before His arrest, trial, and crucifixion, and while speaking of the circumstances surrounding His second coming:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (However), Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in His glory" (see Matthew 16:27-28, also Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27, KJV - Added Emphas Mine Own).

Note carefully what Jesus said. He will come (again) with His angels in all the splendor and glory of God, who was, and is, His Father, that is to say, He will come again to the earth as the Almighty God who manifested Himself as a man approximately 2,000 years previously when He came as the Christ child. Following His return, but at an unspecified moment, He will give rewards to every man according to their obedience to His commandments. The first to receive this reward will be the righteous dead, who will be resurrected and given "new" glorified heavenly bodies that will be likened unto His glorious resurrected body.

The remainder of mankind, including those of the wicked whose souls will continue in that "suspended" state of livelilness known as "soul sleep," must await the final resurrection, an event which will take place at the end of the 1,000 year reign of our Lord upon the earth. At that time these too will be resurrected to life again from the dead, stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and there, when the "books," together with the "book of life" will be opened, they will be judged, the angels separating the wicked from the righteous that will have died during the 1,000 years of Christ's earthly reign. The latter, whose names are found recorded in the "book of life," will be granted entrance into the kingdom of God, and the wicked will be cast (alive) into the lake of fire.

Note also that Jesus explicitly stated that this unique privilege of having the "common affect" of death (that is, "soul sleep") "suspended," which implies/infers that following the death of their physical bodies (which is an event that is common to all mankind - see Hebrews 9:27, KJV) - their souls would be taken to be present with Him in the invisible heavens (inferred), but with this one stipulation: this privilege will remain in effect only UNTIL the moment immediately preceding His second coming. For it will be then that they also must return to the "dust of the earth" where once they enjoyed a state of "liveliness" while resident upon the earth, and this so that they, together with all of the other righteous souls that are "asleep" in death, can be resurrected at the same time. This is to be the very "FIRST" event that takes place following the sounding of the trumpet at the moment of our Lord's glorious appearance upon the clouds of heaven.

Now let's examine the reason why Jesus said, when announcing this special privilege, why He expressly stated, when advising His chosen apostles of this matter, those to whom this limited privilege would be granted, only applied to "some" of His apostles. Well, that is rather easy to determine, for at the time our Lord uttered this, Judas Iscariot was yet present with them, and common logic and reasoning allows us to conclude that this special privilege would not be granted to him, although it would apply to the others, for He had previously referred to this very thing: ....

"Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (see Matthew 19:28, KJV).

Peter alluded to his being granted this special privilege when he penned the words recorded in II Peter 1:13-14, KJV. There he wrote that the time was just about to come to pass when he must vacate the tabernacle of his earthly body, just as the Lord had told him. Paul, who would also later be given an assurance by the Holy Ghost that he would be granted this same unique privilege, and alluded to it in his writings (see II Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:21-23, KJV). Paul also alluded to this fact, wherein he stated that not only himself, but every member of that group of souls to whom this privilege would be granted the privilege of "remaining alive" until the second coming of our Lord, would be required to experience their souls being returned to their earthly bodies which had long since returned to the "dust of the earth," this so that they might, together with the rest of the righteous dead, participate in the first resurrection (see I Thessalonians 4:15-17, KJV). Paul even expressly stated that what he was about to write concerning this matter was with the expressed authority of "the word of the Lord" (a reference to Matthew 16:27-28, KJV).

Lastly, with regards to the question of what the identity might be of those to whom this special privilege was to be granted, allow me to tell you about that man which the Bible reveals to have been the very first. His name was Enoch. Yes, that's correct! And here's how we determine this:

In Hebrews 11, the renown "faith chapter" of the Bible, in verses 3-11 we read the where seven renown individuals of olden times are specifically mentioned by name. These are Abel (vs4), Enoch (vs5), Noah (vs7), Abraham (vs8), Isaac and Jacob (vs 9), and lastly, Sarah (vs11). The one thing which each of these individuals "possessed in common" was their unwavering faith in the "promises" that God had given them. Moreover, in the opening words of verse 13, we discover that there was also an event which each of these individuals "experienced in common," namely death!

Do you see that? Its important that you do, because many heretofore, as well as today, and especially those who believe in an "alleged rapture of the church," hold to the mistaken belief that Enoch was granted an "exemption" from death altogether. However, as explicitly written in Hebrews 11:13, as we just read, it expressly implied that Enoch, together with the other six named individuals of olden times, did, indeed, die! But, when we understand that he was the very first to experience the special privilege of having his soul "remain alive" following the death of his body, then we are able to better comprehend what the writer of Hebrews was expressing.

There's also the matter of the soul of the prophet Elijah's ascension into heaven, and this even by the means of a whirlwind that the prophet Elisha was granted the privilege of witnessing (see II Kings 2:1-11, KJV). No, the physical body of Elijah did not ascend into heaven, for Paul explicitly stated "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (see I Corinthians 15:50, KJV). Our Lord Himself also stated (essentially) the same thing during His conversation with Nicodemus (see John 3:13, KJV) - "... no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

With regards to the identies of some of the others to whom this special privilege of having their souls "remain alive" after death, and UNTIL the second coming of the Lord, lets note what Jesus Christ said when speaking to the Phaisees who were trying to "entangle Him in His talk" (see Matthew 22:15, KJV): He said to them, "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? GOD IS NOT A GOD OF THE DEAD, BUT OF THE LIVING" (see Matthew 22:31-32, KJV).

By this we must understand that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are also among those to whom the special privilege noted has been given (as were perhaps at least "some" of those mentioned by name which we find recorded in Hebrews 11). But wait! There are others, especially Moses whom Peter, James and John witnessed as he spoke with Jesus (together with Elijah) while they were atop the "mount of transfiguration" (see Matthew 17:1-4, KJV).

I am reasonably confident that there were others whom I have not mentioned, to whom this same special privilege has been, or will be granted. I have taken note of these in order to assist you, and others, to grasp what the truth of the "mystery" actually is which Paul noted in the words of I Corinthians 15:51-52, KJV. Admittedly, there exists much, much more that could be written, however, I pray that I have been helpful in enabling you to better understand these things.

mfblume 09-05-2014 10:10 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder (Post 1334177)
Have you ever wondered whether we will actually recognize and/or know each other in heaven? I remember the apostles had a difficult time recognizing Jesus after his resurrection. Seriously, there will be millions of saints there. How will we find each other? Will we remember each other? A few people have quoted 1Corinthians 13:12 to affirm that we will know each other, but have you really studied that scripture?

Another thought that popped into my mind while reading the following…….

1 Corinthians 15:42

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

1Corinthinas 15:50-54

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”



Notice the bolded words. The imperishable can’t inherit the perishable, but at the sound of the trumpet, only then shall we become imperishable. After the trumpet sounds, the dead and living shall be transformed. The perishable must put on the imperishable and the mortal must put on immortality.

How can an individual after death inherit an imperishable heaven when they have not been changed into imperishable status? According to the bible, we are changed into imperishable status only after the trumpet sounds. Prior to the trumpet sounding, the bible reads that, “nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable,” which signifies that we are imperishable prior to the trumpet sounding.

Do the saints really go to heaven after their death……….hmm……..lol

The imperishable references refer only to the BODY. The soul and spirit leave the body at death, so that Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no soul sleep due to that verse in 2 Cor 5.

mfblume 09-05-2014 10:15 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1334379)
Again, some Pentecostals prove INCAPABLE of categorical thinking.

There are three distinct aspects to man's being:

Body - The physical aspect of a man, the body.
Soul - The mind, the seat of reason, will, and emotions.
Spirit - The very breath of life or living essence.

When a man dies, his body is placed in the grave and is unconscious or aware of anything. Therefore, as it relates to a man's body he may be said to be "sleeping". Upon death, the soul leaves the body and enters into the presence of the Lord. Therefore, as it relates to a man's soul he may be said to be in Heaven with the Lord. Upon death, the spirit also leaves the body with the soul and returns to God who gave it.

Therefore, one can be both sleeping in the grave knowing nothing and yet consciously present in Heaven with the Lord. The "Sleepers" incapability to think in categorical terms causes them to always assert false dichotomies that leave them debating among other Christians and using Scripture to assumedly cancel Scripture. In this, they cause the Bible to oppose itself.

Trust me, when Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with the Lord, they weren't wiping their eyes wondering what had happened the during all the time they had been dead. In Revelation, the souls of the martyrs seek consolation in Heaven and they are assured that their deaths will be avenged when their brethren had finally endured as they had. Then they are given white robes to signify their righteousness and faithfulness rewarded.

Remember, the Old Testament is INCOMPLETE. It is fulfilled, defined by, and additional information is revealed in the New Testament.

Exactly.

ixoye_val69 09-06-2014 01:37 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafon (Post 1334346)
I truly do commend you for expressing an interest to learn the truth about this important matter, however, as you can see, that is if you've read the things that have already been written by others, it can be extremely difficult, if not altogether impossible, to "weed" through it all and be successful in arriving at a definitive, scriptural-based understanding. If I could but offer this bit of advise: Always confirm the words of others, and that includes yours truly, with that which the sacred written word of God reveals about matters of importance such as that being discussed here. :thumbsup

Yes sir..I sure will..thank you. :) You are right..it is difficult because sometimes both sides make a pretty good argument. LOL

ixoye_val69 09-06-2014 01:56 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafon (Post 1334372)
Sir, I know you do not mean to intentionally disparage me, but your subtle derogatory remarks are rather hurtful, and this because you know absolutely nothing about me or my situation, so please bear with me for just a moment & I will try to enlighten you.

I have been afflicted with a most devastating lung disease, known in medical terminology as Idopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis. The mortality rate for those who have been afflicted with this disease is, for the greater part, 100%, that is unless one is able to receive a lung transplant. That is not an option available to me for, being almost 76 years old, I am deemed much too aged to even be considered for such a procedure. The average lifespan of those afflicted with this disease is between 4-6 years, and I am most blessed, for I have had it for much longer than this.

My mobility, for the most part, is confined to a wheel chair and a motorized scooter. I also must be attached to an Oxygen Concentrator 24/7, and have portable Oxygen cylinders to attach to my scooter whenever I must leave my home. On days such as today when I am able to breathe better than I do on most days, I enjoy sitting at my PC and communicating with others about issues that are of interest to me.

Just so you know, and now I pray that you will be blessed!


I am still reading through all the posts but I just wanted to take a moment to say how sorry I am to hear about your lung disease. :( I lost both of my parents within a few months of each other from lung cancer but with them they passed within months of being diagnosed. The fact that you are still here means God is not done with you yet. :) I have total respect for you in the fact that even while dealing with this illness you still take the time to "pick up your cross" and also to share your knowledge of the bible with the rest of us.

votivesoul 09-06-2014 07:42 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Some of these ideas relate more to the field of theosophy, and that is where the speculations arise.

I look at it like this:

If I lost an arm or a leg to an injury or accident, the dismembered part of me is not "me". Same with a haircut, trimming finger nails, and etc. The soul of who I am is still incarnated in my body, even as the other "parts" of me disappear and die off.

As the old saying goes: you are not a body which has a soul, you are a soul which has a body.

So how much of my body can be lost (and not my soul) to illness, injury, or other forms of destruction, should I still survive the trauma?

There is a young boy who was born without a brain, just some lower stem. Last I heard, he is still alive:

http://www.boston.com/community/moms...years_old.html

http://media2.abc15.com//photo/2012/...28_320_240.JPG

Does he have a soul, even without the physical organ into which the mind is incarnated?

I say yes!

He is alive, and has marks of personality, expression, and etc., even without any apparent sentience or other identifying features of "soul".

If this be the case, I am convinced that a soul can be detached from the body into which it was formerly incarnated, and continues on. I am not sure that a soul dies with the body, any more than a soul dies even as a lock of hair, a finger nail, or even half of the human body is lost to injury, and so, dies off:

http://www.medgadget.com/archives/im...n2_450x400.jpg

The destruction of the flesh, as severe and terrible as it can be, cannot lessen the vigor or life of the flesh. The soul is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11, where "life" is the Hebrew word nephesh meaning soul).

So, as the body dies, and the heart stops pumping, and the blood stops flowing, does the soul die as the blood loses life, or does the soul separate from out of the blood and carry on in a different state/place?

I don't imagine the human soul, disembodied, is like some floating orb of light, invisible but present. May as well believe in ghosts, otherwise.

So, even though I don't know which direction to believe, I can at least conclude this much:

Whether I live or die, I am the Lord's.

Steve Epley 09-06-2014 08:53 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
I thought the question was will we know anyone in Heaven? I replied Peter, James, John who had never seen Moses and Elijah knew them? To me that is very telling. Also it states David will sit on his throne. Evidently they will know he is David?
It also states we will sit down with Abraham, Issac, Jacob so evidently we will know them?
I realize we see through a glass darkly but these are just some observations.
I believe the scriptures teach the righteous dead are asleep in Jesus until the resurrection.

thaddaeus417 09-06-2014 11:52 AM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Abraham's Bosom and the rich man in hell, the thief on the cross being told today he will be in paradise?

My belief is that the flesh sleeps and the soul/spirit will go to paradise if your saved or hell if lost. At the resurrection you will reunite with your glorified body. So, If saved you will go to paradise then heaven, the lost will go to hell then the lake of fire.

Will we recognize each other? no! Will we know each other as we did on earth? no! I will not know my wife as she looks today and I will not know her as my wife, I will know her in heaven for her exploits and as she stands in the kingdom of God.

houston 09-06-2014 12:18 PM

The flesh rots.

seguidordejesus 09-06-2014 12:34 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
I understand why some would like to see their families or friends in Heaven, but honestly, I've probably given it 10 minutes thought in my life. What difference does it make? We'll be in heaven! Are you going to back out because you didn't see your mama?

That's not to say that studying it out isn't interesting :)

thaddaeus417 09-06-2014 07:37 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus (Post 1334499)
I understand why some would like to see their families or friends in Heaven, but honestly, I've probably given it 10 minutes thought in my life. What difference does it make? We'll be in heaven! Are you going to back out because you didn't see your mama?

That's not to say that studying it out isn't interesting :)

I wish I has saved the link to a message titled "Heaven is about relationships". Like you I never thought much about the matter but after hearing that message I realized that it does matter.

Roxanne Murphy 09-06-2014 07:37 PM

Re: A Few Thoughts To Ponder
 
I am intrigued that nobody has yet mentioned the parable Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus:
“Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’ “But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’ (..Luke‬ ..16‬:..22-26‬ NLT)

Since Jesus is Almighty God manifest in flesh, the Living Word, the Way, the Truth, the Life, I tend to be certain that He above all would be able to tell a story describing a world we cannot see with our human eyes. In this particular parable, the rich man was very aware of his terrible circumstances. He also recognized Lazarus and Abraham and carried on a conversation with Abraham. That would not be possible if the soul sleeps in death.

And then there is this passage:
Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood. (..1 Peter‬ ..3‬:..18-20‬ NLT)

As my favorite Bible teacher of all time, Dr. Dan Seagraves, used to tell us in class, "to fully understand what the Bible has to say about any subject, one must first look at all the scriptures that pertain to that subject and understand them in context."


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