Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

So... if Oneness theology and "Jesus name baptism" and "Holy Ghost baptism evidenced by glossalalia" are true doctrines of God's true church... then has there been an unbroken line of assemblies from Pentecost to today?

If not, does that mean there periods of time when there was NO ASSEMBLY OF TRUE SAINTS in the world?


And if that be true, how could any church truly come about ... during a time when there was not one single SAVED BELIEVER on earth?

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

How can one say for sure? If there are millions of people on Earth AND for centuries no good means of communications? I would like to think there was always a Church somewhere on Earth that taught true Apostolic doctrine.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I would like to think that as well. But...

1. Is such an expectation biblical?

2. If it were true then the church today has little to no actual connection with any prior true church....

3. If it is not true then do we admit there have been periods of time since Pentecost when God had NO earthly witnesses?

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Im ready. Teach me.:highfive

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

The late Marvin Arnold spent many years, traveling the world, researching even the archives of the Vatican, in an effort to find evidence in support of his belief that the One True Church has always existed (although not as renown as it is today).

Arnold believed that because our Lord stated that the "gates of hell" shall not prevail against His church, then it must have always been present in the earth, and he discovered some pretty convincing historical evidence to authenticate that belief.

A friend loaned me several books to read that Arnold had written about his discoveries, but I don't recall their titles. I'm sure you can find them through a Goggle or other internet search engine.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Apostolic History Outline by Dr. Marvin Arnold is one of my favorites. You can buy it here.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I don't think the Church overcoming the gates of hades means what people think it means. It is talking about the resurrection of the dead saints out of Hades.

But as far as has there been a true Church perhaps it depends on what we mean by "Church"? If it can be wherever two or three gather in his name around Christ and the truth I would be willing to say yes it has existed in all generations.

Can I prove that? No. Neither can it be proved otherwise.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Michael, it would do you good to check what Marvin Arnold discovered. The evidence is rather convincing, and I'm confident your opinion might just be somewhat different should you elect to do that.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I read Ancient Champions of Oneness decades ago. It was interesting. What was proved I think was there were always Oneness believers. If there is more proof now that there were always those who believed in it and taught baptism into the name of Jesus and the Holy Spirit with tongues that's really good.

HOWEVER please don't make the mistake of thinking that Oneness and Acts 2:38 is synonomous with being the true Church.

The true Church agrees with all the foundation doctrine taught through the Apostles. One could teach those things like Oneness Churches do and still not be the true Church.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...=marvin+arnold

Also discussed in pages 88-91 below:
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...arnold&page=88

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Wadr, the true church mostly has no clue about any of the Apostles doctrine, as strange as that may seem; and It is not determined to exist or not exist according to any man's doctrinal yardstick. Not sure who the OP is here, but I'm kinda surprised at the two of you? I had supposed that you both grasped that the real church has no acronym lol.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Esaias, you confuse the definition of church with that of congregation here, understandably...imo, leading to the confusion @ 'saved believer,' which is both redundant and misleading, as no believer alive has made it to 'the end' to know for sure if they are saved or not...it's that pesky seminary yack, wadr.

The true church is made of living stones; and Melchizedek might argue for its unbroken existence? Dunno there, but i'd take for granted that any answer you come up with that most of your peers agree with is at least highly suspect, no offense intended.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Sorry to tell you this, but the evidence is not reliable.
I researched the information in it and found too many mistakes.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I can accept the idea a genuine church being deficient in certain areas. The Corinthians, Galatians, and most of the seven churches in Revelation had serious problems with their doctrines and practices. There seems to be a basic minimum which would qualify an assembly as being an authentic God-planted ekklesia. If they fail to grow they are subject to being cut off, it seems.

Just thinking out loud here but doesn't the great commission at least imply that a genuine assembly is started by a genuine assembly? Like begets like and all that? How could a heresy give birth to truth? How could a pseudo ekklesia produce a true one?

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

By "church" I mean ekklesia ie an assembly. By "true church" I mean an assembly of people actually called and sanctified by the grace of God into new covenant relationship with Him through faith as taught by the apostles.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Arnold, the Baptists, and Armstrongites all claim the same groups as representative of their "unbroken lineage" back to the apostles.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

As to if there has always been the "Apostolic doctrine" as currently is taught today, I would say no. But a true church - the Lord knows those who are His, and I believe hearts who reach out to the Lord in faith, perhaps not having all elements of the original apostolic truths, the Lord remains the final judge of that.

And we must consider - what if we don't possess all the elements of the original apostolic doctrine? What of us? That concerns me more than anything else.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

So, man's definition then, and not God's. If i get you. Is there a ref tying ecclesia and true church? Ty

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

There have always been true believers.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I rest the topic in the words of Scripture, Romans 10:9, If you confess Jesus is Lord and Believe in your Heart that he is risen from the dead you will be saved.

As long as that has been known to people then there has been a TRUE CHURCH on earth!

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

The word ekklesia MEANS a called-out assembly.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I don't believe there has always been an assembly of Christians that believe salvation as expressed by the UPCI-- which is one of many reasons why what they say doesn't hold water with me any more.

None of the other revivals that happened before Azusa brought about the UPCI doctrine-- were those not real revivals? Was God just prepping those saints for the revelation to come? Ok-- what if they died before that Acts 2:38 revelation as presented by the UPCI?

To think that NO ONE will go to heaven unless they are baptized "in the Name of Jesus" and speak in tongues CONDEMNS the vast majority of anyone who ever expressed faith in Jesus Christ.

AND... Paul and Silas didn't insist that the jailer speak in tongues. They insisted the jailer believe.

Salvation as presented by the UPCI has so many holes!

To be honest, I don't even know why I try to hold on to any thing that ties me to those people or their stupid doctrines. All it does is create confusion and strife as they attempt to fill in holes where the Bible is silent when if they really believed what the Bible says, there wouldn't be any holes in their doctrines concerning salvation.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

ah--and you feel it is justified to apply this to a physical assembly. Gotcha.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

To me the more important thing is what do we see in the book of Acts? Did THEY baptize in Jesus name? Did they believe you received the Spirit just on believing? Was tongues a BIG part of what was happening then?

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I accept there are Christians gathering together with each other holding doctrinal error but not that THAT constitutes a "true Church". The true Church will hold steadfastly to the apostles doctrine. They will contend for the faith once given to the saints.

When the Holiness people of 1901 discovered new truth they accepted it. So groups in error can gain in truth. They or "we" as the case may be after being filled with the Spirit have potential to be led by the Spirit into all truth.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Yes they baptized in Jesus name.

No, they did not believe that one received the Holy Spirit just on believing.

Yes, speaking tongues was a BIG part of what was happening then.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Seriously? God has assemblies of people called to assemble together as a kingdom jural society... but those assemblies aren't "physical assemblies"...????

I really don't know how to converse with someone who rejects the basic meanings of simple words. I guess a term can just mean whatever we want it to mean.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

If an assembly of believers do not believe in foundation apostolic doctrine regarding regeneration and remission of sins then what exactly are they?

Is it a bible doctrine that there would ALWAYS be an assembly somewhere that at least knows the identity of God as well as the correct answer to the question "how does a sinner become a Christian"?

And will God "create" a church in a time and place with NO connection to that proposed existing genuine assembly?

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Church refers to the body of believers not necessarily a visible congregation or organization

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

God's witness is His word. His people witness to the resurrection of Jesus. I don't think it requires someone having All their ducks lined up in a row necessary.

Look at the Oneness churches today dividing over a single issue like standards, facial hair, TV or Internet and often inform the other group they are not really saved anymore.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Prax are you saying "church" does NOT mean a local body of believers?

Also, are you saying God had churches that didn't know and never knew that Christ is the incarnation of the Father and that baptism is to be done in his name by immersion and that receiving the Spirit is normatively accompanied by glossalalia? If so... then what makes a church a church?

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I really do not wan to be a Grinch, but the truth is that we don't possess all the elements of the original apostolic doctrine, however as times goes forward and we research more the Bible and the ancient texts, we are bound to get closer to that original apostolic doctrine.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

A local body of believers is a part of the body of Christ.

There is one Church and those local bodies of believers are a part of that One Church

I believe that all the church people who argue and label other members "not saved" might be surprised to find them in the same place together when they die or the Rapture happens

The basis of church is faith, faith in what Christ did on the cross which leads us to repent and obey.

I also don't believe it can ever be proven that there has been an unbroken chain of Oneness Pentecostals from 33 AD till now. Ive never seen any evidence of an unbroken chain

I don't believe one is necessary either. Having said that it is possible there could have been a handful of people somewhere on planet earth that believed A.B and C but if they did they were either silent about their faith or quickly killed for heresy

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

I don't think we could say NO ONE has all the truth. My thinking is that those who DO would be called a "cult" by the modern Church.

Jesus said if one has the Holy Spirit he will guide them into ALL TRUTH. So even tho there may not be orgs that have the full truth I think there certainly are individuals and small groups or even large groups that do.

After all there are millions of spirit baptized Christians in the world and you and I have never met or heard of most of them.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

On the other hand has there always been an unbroken chain of "faith only" Churches? That did not require water baptism or the Holy Spirit? That required NOTHING except a confession of faith? That would be very hard to find historically.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

A Church that I believe has the original Apostolic foundation.

Carlisle Christian Fellowship. Carlisle Pa

http://www.weareccf.org/

They have a plurality of Elders. The founding Elder is Dave Huston. Oddly enough this is a UPC Church.

Here is their other web site:

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

http://www.pbcofdecaturalabama.org/RMason/myth1.htm

Ignore for a moment the author's Baptist bias and consider the argument: Jesus founded a visible local assembly not a universal invisible one.

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

There hasn't been an unbroken chain of anything. There has been a group such as the Roman Catholic church which has evolved over the years

Will the circle be unbroken
by and by, Lord, by and by

Re: Has there ALWAYS been a true church?
 

Who can baptise a repentant believer? Can just anyone?

Or must a proper scriptural baptism be performed by one who is authorised by God to do such?

Who has God authorized?