Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I'm a minister, Pentecostal, fully believing everything we need to know about what the church needs to return to can be found in The Acts of the Apostles.
My wife and I have been attending an UPCI church for the past year because I truly believe that is where God has placed us. We both love and support our church and our Pastor 100%.
The difference is that we are not Oneness, I've read Dr. Bernard books and I can no longer say with certainty that I follow the path of being Trinitarian, but have not crossed that bridge to Oneness.
However, today I just listened to Dr. Bernard's message titled "Restoring the Apostolic Church" and there was not one thing in that message I didn't fully support or agree with.
The question is this: Can you be considered Apostolic, in your faith, without being Oneness?

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

IMO I don't see how.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Since the term Apostolic means one who practices the teachings of the apostles - and being one who believes the apostles did not teach a trinity, but one true God as all Jewish people believe - I would have to say no. Pentecostal perhaps, but not Apostolic.

Perhaps a few titles you can look into, would be

Ancient Champions of Oneness - William B. Chalfant
Oneness and Trinity: a.d. 100-300 - David Bernard
The Trinitarian Controversy in the Fourth Century - David Bernard
A Handbook of Basic Doctrines - David Bernard
(I love this one personally, as it's nothing but scripture references, no exposition)

Then there's the 'History of Christian Doctrine' volumes 1-3, also by David Bernard (what can I say, he writes a lot of books, so it's not uncommon I'd reference him a lot). Volume 1 is predominantly about the old church, post-Apostolic. Volume 2 covers the ground between, leading up to current times. Volume 3 is about modern day, starting around the beginning of the 20th century and the revival of the Pentecostal movement that began in the book of Acts.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

That is a very unanswerable question simply because it all depends on how one defines Apostolic

On a side note. I recommend reading other sources besides bernards books

start with www.onenesspentecostal.com

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Thanks for that link, Praxeas. :highfive I'm always up for finding more sources to read. I'll check it out later when I have some more time. As an aside, I forgot another good book (albeit a short one, and not without some flaws). 'Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus' by Gordon Magee. I think there's even a free PDF version of it available online, but I could be mistaken. I'll have to look for it again.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Exactly what is keeping you from being Oneness? I was in the same boat as you back in 1980.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Honestly, not much.
I don't make decisions quickly and without a lot of prayer and study.
I've never considered the trinity a "hill to die on" so I'm a little more open to changing my mind on the subject.

The pastor and I have actually had several conversations on it.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Who are any of us to say? You do not believe in three Gods (and probably never did as most Trinitarians do not). Though I've never heard you explain your idea of the Godhead, I would not doubt that it would pass the "Oneness litmus test" of some on here. It seems you are trying to be a "Strict Constructionist" (hint hint) at least.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Smart man. God would not want you to be any other way. ALWAYS keep that attitude on EVERY doctrine. That's why many of us on here are outcasts. We do not rebel, but we reserve the right to prayerfully come to our own conclusions about things. That is just too much for some pastors to tolerate.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

What questions do you have?

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I agree

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Personally, I would not recommend that. It's more Apologetic than Academic.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Did you get my link?

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Yep, got it.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I did thanks.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Actually none. Through my pastor and some great reference books I've been given, I have had most of the concerns answered.
It's a matter of some prayer and decision making.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Brother, read Isaiah 9:6. The Son who is to be given is to be known as both the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father. The apostles believed in one God whom they called Father, who according to Jesus is a Spirit. Those apostles also believed and taught that the man, Jesus Christ, is also somehow the manifestation in flesh of the God whom they believed in. Oneness is a modern term for believing Jesus is both the One and only God and yet also the human manifestation or "incarnation" of that God. Both man... and God.

As Martin Luther once said "in heaven the only God you will ever see is Jesus Christ".

In tthehuman Son of God we perceive the heavenly Father and God of all creation. And He sends his Holy Ghost into our hearts who is none other than Christ dwelling in us.

Trinitarianism and binitarianism and unfortunately even some versions of "oneness" I've heard are just intellectual attempts to explain God in the language of Hellenic philosophy and metaphysics. ie the "wisdom of the world" by which man FAILED TO KNOW GOD.

Source for Martin Luther quote?

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Yea.

I have met a few Trins that said the same thing. That's my kind of Trinity! Jesus Only!

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I cannot say that I ever truly believed in a Trinity, i.e., a “triune” God, per se, albeit prior to my coming to an understanding of the Oneness of God I did hold to the belief about the godhead which many call “binitarianism,” that is, two separate, distinctly different persons in “one” essence.

Even after receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost and being water baptized “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” I continued to struggle for several months with the “Oneness” question, that is, until I chanced to meet a complete stranger (who since became and has been one of my dearest friends for 27 years), at which time we engaged in a discussion of the matter.

When he opened his Bible to show me how our Lord’s response to Peter’s “revelation” of His identity (Matthew 16:17, KJV) actually corroborated those spoken by the Lord as found recorded in Matthew 11:27 (KJV), suddenly it all seemed to be so clear ... Christ Jesus (the Son of man) was, and is, the One True God (the Father, who is Spirit), and it is He that "reveals" both the identity of Himself as a "man" in whom the Spirit (Father) dwelt without measure.

Seeing that Christ Jesus (the Son of man) is the one who reveals the true identity of the Father (the Spirit), according to the words of Matthew 11:27, and that Christ Jesus (the Son of man) told Peter that it was the Father (the Spirit) who reveals the true identity of whom He (the Son of man) was, according to the words of Matthew 16:17, then it must be true, simply stated, that Christ Jesus (the Son of man) is the visible manifestation of the Father (who is Spirit)!

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Great Post!

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

When God "commissioned" Moses to return to Egypt to confront Pharaoh (c. BC 1491), and demand that he release His chosen people of Israel from bondage, allowing them to depart from Egypt, Moses said unto God, "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, 'The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name?' What shall I say unto them?"

God answered Moses, saying, "I AM That I AM:" and He said, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (see Exodus 3:13-14).

About 1,523 years later, when responding to the Jews, who failed to comprehend the meaning of Jesus' statement wherein He said to them, "I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come," after which they wondered aloud if He would kill himself Him, we find that it is written our Lord Jesus Christ said to them, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (see John 8:21-24).

We also find it written in John 13:18-20, that at that event which is commonly called "The Last Supper," following His washing of the disciple's feet, once again our Lord identified Himself as "I AM he," that is, the visible, human manifestation of that same Almighty God who appeared to Moses and commanded him to return to Egypt which we read about in Exodus 3:13-14.

So, based solely upon these scriptural passages, which clearly indicate that the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the "Son of man," that is, He is the human manifestation of the Almighty I AM in a physical human body (see II Corinthians 2:19); and should one who has is a recipient of the baptism of the Spirit and has been immersed in the waters of baptism "in His name," ever be persuaded to entertain doubts concerning what we commonly know as the Oneness of God, then I am persuaded to believe that such "doubts" are a subtle, deceitful ploy of the enemy to cause that one to deny the One True God.

And what did Christ Jesus admonish the Jews concerning those who would doubt or fail to believe His true identity - "that ye shall die in your sins: FOR IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins"? And we know the eternal fate of ALL those who do so will "die in their sins," do we not?

Just something I think we must all think about ...

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I agree. We must be correct in knowing who Jesus Christ is. He made it a salvation issue. Oneness has all but forsaken its most glorious truth.

I did a poll on THIS Forum a few years ago. The MAJORITY do not believe Jesus is the Father as well as the Son.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I believe Jesus is the Father in the son.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

When Jesus died on the cross did God die?

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

I believe in the oneness of God, but I feel like sometimes we could do a better job as oneness apostolics to explain it. We must recognize the humanity side also when we explain. The scriptures never say God the son. Which that should clue trinitarians in.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

This I absolutely concur with. I've never been entirely comfortable with some people's usage of trinitarian language to try and explain oneness.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Like what?

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Well, I did say it wasn't without some flaws, nevertheless it does have some good points.

The constant need to fall back on the trinitarian "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" dynamic. I'm not uncomfortable with the terms themselves, as they are Biblical, but with the seemingly constant need to use them to define God just as the trinitarians do, rather than use less ambiguous terms that more accurately define what we believe.

Focusing on trinitarian terminology to define God can be confusing to new converts. We should be comfortable enough in our understanding of God to not have to fall on another beliefs terminology to define Him to others.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Right. Use biblcal terms ONLY.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

How do you explain the prayers of Jesus to the Father?

I'm a Oneness believer. I'm curious how other Oneness believers explain Jesus' prayers because it usually reveals the inner workings of the way they view the Father and the Son.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

How do you explain the prayers of Jesus to the Father?

I'm a Oneness believer. I'm curious how other Oneness believers explain Jesus' prayers because it usually reveals the inner workings of the way they view the Father and the Son.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

This is how I view it. The Word clearly says that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. Everything Jesus said and did was for our example. Therefore, when He prays, He shows our human need for God.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Jesus was completely human, just like us. He had the Holy Ghost(Luke 4:1), just like us. He prayed to the "God within him", just like we do....it's really that easy.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

It's flesh and humanity relying upon Deity. Otherwise, Jesus was not actually manifest in flesh.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Jesus was a man. He was a prophet and a "man of God". So it is unthinkable that he would NOT pray. And to whom does a man of God pray? To the Father of course.

Btw prayer is not a means of communicating information to God. He already knows everything. Rather prayer seems designed for our benefit. It is a means for God to interact with us, a means for us to be conformed to his will, a means to draw us closer to God and keep us close.

Jesus is a human being. God became a man and experienced life AS A HUMAN BEING. That human we call JESUS. God incarnate.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Honestly I cannot find it online. My memory claims I read it in one of his writings but we just moved and most of my books are still packed away.

Perhaps I have remembered in error but I have for years been impressed that he made the statement in a polemical remark against the Socinians.

Or perhaps I read it as attributed to him and over time conflated the attribution as a direct reading.

Unfortunately google has become nearly useless for searching anything important.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

Pentecostal and Apostolic are synonymous: they are the same faith and same doctrine. They focus on the Day of Pentecost, and we must ask ourselves: What Happened on that Day? Well...
On the day of Pentecost, four things happened: (1) about 120 disciples received the Holy Spirit, "...and they began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave utterance..."; (2) about three thousand souls repented through the preaching of the Apostle Peter; and, (3) these were all baptized
"...in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...", receiving the Holy Spirit that was promised to them: "...for the promise is unto you, and to your children...".

So, Beloved, if that is what you have experienced, then you are a pentecostal (or apostolic)...except, if you still doubt that there is any other NAME "...under heaven, given among men, in which we must be saved."

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God (the Father) How? Oneness. He was one with the Father.

Let's review how Jesus Himself describes His Oneness with the Father...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray and speak of His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is far more than a mere man. He is... also God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Re: Apostolic but not Oneness?
 

John 10:30 __ I and my Father are one. (KJV)
(submitting )

John 10:38 __ But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(walking in obedience)

John 12:45 __ And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)
(knows not the flesh of Jesus, but the Spirit)

The Father will NOT judge: but the word He has spoken will judge the living and the dead.

Christ has indeed been elevated: if he was not flesh (man), he would not be elevated. As God, he would be exalted! So what awaits the children of God? It is found in Psa. 82:6 __ "I have said, 'You are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High God.' "