Originally Posted by gardenheart (Post 1340604)

The fullness of the Godhead was bodily in Jesus...so in all actuality God willingly sacrificed Himself for us...at least that's the way I see it. No greater love than to lay down your life for your brother :)

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1340716)

Exactly.

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1340715)

Not another cynic and mocker. (sigh)

Here we go, folks. Pack your bags, and see them take you on a guilt trip.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1340764)

Amen.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1340769)

Dear Gnostic Bishop:

When you can tell us how you created the world, the universe, the heavens, and all that dwells therein, and can explain to us every mystery of the human body and science, then you might have a right to question God and demand to know why HE created the world and set up the natural laws as he did....

You see these questions that you have won't change the fact that you were created and brought into existence, and you didn't have a say in how you were created - why you were born with blue or brown eyes instead of red eyes, anymore than you explain the mystery of what a black hole is, or how a seed can be put into the ground, and bring forth life that resembles nothing of its original self.

You see, all your questions, reasonings, opinions, and railings against the "unfairness" of the GOD who created this world will matter nothing on the day that you die, except for the fact that you chose to disbelieve, rather than believe. That is your choice of course.

Go on disbelieving in the Creator of this universe, who created you, and who knows your moment to draw your last breath. Disbelieve all you want, that is your choice... but you need to take a moment and be honest with yourself - how did YOU get here? Why planned YOUR life? Why are you here? Why do you look, think and act the way you do? Could it be that the great GOD of this universe cares about you, loves you, and wants the best from you, and asks that you believe in him, while you shake HIM off in disbelief, and say... sorry, I can't believe, I'm mad at you for the choices you made in designing this universe?

And there again, it is your choice to think that you can question, and somehow change the GOD of this universe who spoke it all into existence - and you had no control over the fact that you were born into this world.

No, I don't claim to know all the answers, or understand WHY God chose to set this universe up the way HE did, but after all, HE was the creator, and this is how He chose. We are given a choice - to believe, or disbelieve. There are consequences for either choice.

Originally Posted by good samaritan (Post 1340790)

Our sense of right and wrong comes from God. There are definitely things we aren't big enough to understand that will be revealed to us later on. Jesus is God in flesh. God didn't send an eternal son; He sent his begotten son who he fully indwelt through all of the agony and pain. My mind is limited, but I can comprehend the grace that has been bestowed upon me and I hope you will one day repent of your sins and unbelief and turn to such a merciful God.

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341003)

The usual scripted reply. Good grief.

You forget that what you quote makes it look like your prick of a God did not even love his own son enough to die for him.

As above so below says you have the same cold heart.

A moral man will wish his son to bury him but do not let that fact worry your self-centred thinking. You are just like your God. That is not good.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1340603)

Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1341184)

Heaven, is eternal life in blissful union with God, with pleasures forever more. How can a sinful creature (like man) earn that? How many works are necessary??? How many good deeds must one perform??? 1,000 good works? 10,000 good works?? 100,000 good works??? What kinds of works would be acceptable as it relates to "good works"???

Frankly, there is NOTHING one could do to earn their way to Heaven on their own merit. Without substitutionary atonement... one would have better luck building a ladder to the moon with toothpicks than making it to Heaven on their own.

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341005)

How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

-----------------------------------

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

---------------------------------

It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1341023)

Why are you here? To spout anything you can against the Bible or our faith? Nice.

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1341163)

Please act like you know there is more than 1 theory of atonement.



The atonement theory you are speaking of is more or less specific to "penal substitution" in which it is believed that Jesus was "punished instead of sinners".

Again this is not the only theory of atonement (though it may be the only one you have heard of since it's the most common these days).



Not even sure how this poses a problem but okay.... Maybe you should explain your reasoning a bit better?



Okay, so now we are back on track. God could have chosen to punish the guilty instead of the innocent and everything else. I agree but this is only a problem if one adopts a penal substitutionary view of atonement. Penal substitution is not the only view.



Again what you are arguing against is penal substitution. It's not the only view. I tend to agree that penal substitution doesn't adaquately describe the atonement. It's a good thing that it isn't the only view.



Sacrifice isn't typically penal in nature (which is what bothers you in the Jesus example you gave). When the old testament laws demanded the jews perform a sacrifice it wasn't typically done with the mindset that the sacrrifice was being killed in place of the jew that was sacrificing the animal. Sacrifices were mostly a way of showing humility toward God. They were typically costly to those who sacrificed.



Most all the problems you have with atonement are only present in the penal substitutionary model. Read about some others before you dismiss it all outright.

My personal view is probably a bit less mainstream than the other theories you will read about. But that's because I don't think Jesus' death was necessary to forgive our sins. God could have chosen to forgive us any way he wanted to. So why choose the death of his Son, Jesus as the way to forgive us our sins? Maybe it was the best way? Maybe it wasn't? Maybe it's just the way God decided to get our attention. Maybe it's deeper than that. I don't think anyone knows for sure how or why the atonement works, but we do know that God has elevated belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus as the primary starting point and focus of our salvation.

Everything else is just human theories as to how it all worked and those can never do justice to thoughts and intentions and heart of God almighty himself.

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1341184)

Heaven, is eternal life in blissful union with God, with pleasures forever more. How can a sinful creature (like man) earn that? How many works are necessary??? How many good deeds must one perform??? 1,000 good works? 10,000 good works?? 100,000 good works??? What kinds of works would be acceptable as it relates to "good works"???

Frankly, there is NOTHING one could do to earn their way to Heaven on their own merit. Without substitutionary atonement... one would have better luck building a ladder to the moon with toothpicks than making it to Heaven on their own.

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1341216)

The Bible also speaks of Christ willingly giving his life for us. He had a choice in this. God did not force him to do it. Furthermore Christ gladly did this "for the joy set before him". You might be complaining, but he is not. He is perfectly happy with what Calvary wrought for him as well as for us.

You can self righteously mock God all day if you want. But in the end you lack sufficient righteousness to stand guiltless before God in the day of wrath. So you can either embrace the imputed righteousness offered to you by God through faith in Christ's atoning work, or you can rattle off all of these accusations to God personally at the judgement bar. Good luck with the latter.



Basically you are a self righteous person who

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341255)

Did you see anything that was not true?

No you did not. It is not my fault that you never really thought of the disgusting theology you follow.

No theology that begins with barbaric human sacrifice is worthy.

But do not think of what you follow. You would not want you to be enlightened.

If you were an honest man, you would have answered those little questions that upset you.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1341272)

How you critics of the Word twist a person's points! Wow. lol. Nothing you said upset me. I just asked you a simple question. Are you another OCD missionary who just cannot keep quiet about their bitterness towards the Bible? What is your purpose saying what you do? What do you hope to accomplish? Can you not answer that?

Originally Posted by jfrog (Post 1341198)

I think you miss the point. He's not worried whether we can make it to heaven. He is asking whether it was wrong for God to punish Jesus in our place, and it most certainly would have been if God actually punished Jesus is our place.

You shouldn't limit God and say that substitutionary atonement was the only way he could have saved us from hell. He's God! He could have saved us any way he wanted.

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1341301)

Who is truly to blame for sin and the condition of reality itself? Who created all of this knowing what would happen? Shouldn't God take the responsibility for all of this upon His shoulders? Or does an omniscient Creator who created all of this knowing what would happen get off Scott-free and condemn us for being sinful... when we didn't ask to be born in this fallen sinful creation?

Truly... who should carry the cross for all of this? God or man? What would be real justice?

I see a God willing to take on flesh and take responsibility for all of this on His own shoulders and suffer for mankind's sin... because after all... He willingly created all of this knowing the end from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker (Post 1341308)

"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.." Enough said!

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341306)

How is God, --- by killing the vast majority of us in the lake of fire, taking responsibility for what he created?

He must really hate the sinners he created instead of hating the sin.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341311)

Lord lord why have you forsaken me.

I do my fathers will and not my own.

If all you have is thoughtless dogma and your scripted garbage then you might want to ignore me. I think whereas you do not. It would not be a fair debate.

BTW. This is not a criticism of your name, I do not play those games. but just a question.

How can you be seeking truth when you are an idol worshiper who thinks he has found God? What truth do you seek that your idol does not provide?

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341258)

You ignore all the places where Jesus says he is doing his fathers work and his will and not his own.

Go lie to yourself elsewhere. I seek those who read what the word says and not what you want the words to say.

You must be a fool if you think God's justice includes punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Show us how that works and how a fool would explain such a just method of judging.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341306)

How is God, --- by killing the vast majority of us in the lake of fire, taking responsibility for what he created?

He must really hate the sinners he created instead of hating the sin.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1341318)

All I see here is gnostic dogma vs. biblical dogma. Unless you are willing to honestly consider the point of the Bible's message... you're guilty of the very sin you accuse Seeker of.

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 1341316)

God took it upon Himself through substitutionary atonement and propitiation to provide a way of escape through the Gospel.

Sin must be judged. .

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1341343)

Yes he is angry with the wicked every day. But his anger will be kindled even more on judgment day against those who did not esteem his son and the sacrifice he made as something of value but rather chose to face judgment in the filthy rags of their own righteousness. That would be you. Yes, all your cockiness and arguments are gong to melt away like wax on that day. The only thing coming out of your mouth will be, "Jesus Christ is Lord!!" as your knee bows before him.

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop (Post 1341396)

Do you bow to your brethren?

I do not nor do I demand it. You make Jesus just a power hungry God who wants sheople on their knees when what he wants is people like you to grow up.

Listen to his words and join me and Jesus. If not, take your satanic morals and ignore your betters.

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRN...layer_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, then you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. It is to become fully human.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman (Post 1341434)

oh brother, not ANOTHER atheist. Good grief!

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1341443)

You will be so overwhelmed by his worthiness that you will not be able to contain the praise. But it will be too late then to make him Lord.

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1341444)

still waiting for an answer on all of this...



I'm ignoring nothing. He did do God's will. But he did it of his own free will. "I lay my life down. I take it up again."

Paul said "the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

You also forget that the saving gospel is not just the death of Christ, but his resurrection. In fact, we base our salvation on his resurrection,not his death. Again Paul said...


Quote:
For if, when we were enemies, we were to reconciled God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:8)

So you really do not even understand the gospel. But let's face it. Your real beef is the "thou shalt nots". You want to do those things and you resent the fact that those commandments condemn you. You are angry that God won't accept you even if you violate his laws. You want to be "good enough as you are" and the thought that such a terrible price had to be paid for you only makes you more resentful. You are the epitome of self righteousness. You killed Christ, not God.