Any hope for unity?
 

The Bible says we should speak the same thing and be of one mind.

Will it ever happen before our Lord returns?

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Sounds like a growth process which needs lots of love and humility to accomplish.

Eph 4:15-16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Yes, I think it will happen.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

I don't think so.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

There will be a remnant New Testament Church in the end times. IT will come to unity with Christ. Once it is established it will feed the woman in the wilderness.

There will be a people walking in truth and coming to be overcomers. Jesus is only coming for a bride like himself.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Who is the whole body? All Christians (i.e, everyone who self-labels as such)? All Oneness Apostolic Three-step Holiness Pentecostal Post-trib Christians (ditto)? Mormons? :heeheehee

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Q. Any hope for unity?

B. Even less likely now that AFF exists.


:heeheehee

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Not everyone who says that Jesus is Lord is part of the body.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Matthew 7:21

I can't make the determination who is or is not part of the body of Christ but I'm confident that the Lord knows.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

OK. So nobody will know if unity is attained. Besides the Lord, of course. :)

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

and there's the rub.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Not even the churches established in Apostolic times had absolute unity. We should be unified in Spirit and on essentials such as the Oneness of God and Acts 2:38 being the proper means of conversion. However, how Oneness is understood and the various soteriological aspects of Acts 2:38 are understood should be open to interpretation and continual study. We can be unified in the Spirit and not legalistically unified on every point of teaching.

If we all understand this, speak this, and stand by this... we are of one mind and speaking the same thing. However, we're allowing unity in diversity and making our differences... a strength.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

The unfortunate reality is that many confuse uniformity with unity. Early 20th century revivals occurred due to unity in spirit. Book of acts much the same. It seems as though they were humble and open to what The Spirit was doing. Much more so than today. Just my 2 cents...

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

What is truly disunity? Brethren loving one another in spite of various views about various topics and working to advance the name of Jesus, the truth of Him being God, and obedience to Acts 2:38... or arguing and dividing over the fact that we don't agree on various issues... while demanding uniformity?

Those who demand uniformity to supposedly "please the Lord" are unwilling to unite with other brethren who do not think like them. In essence... they want EVERYONE to believe exactly like them on those subjects that they deem essential.

We need to move beyond this. Unity in Christ is a unity of spirit through the Holy Spirit not a legalistic uniformity on all teachings and/or points of view. Rev. Blume and I disagree on issues relating to Prophecy. Praxeas and I disagree on how to biblically define Oneness. However, I count both of these men my dearly beloved brothers in Christ because they have the very same Holy Spirit, I know, because I've felt Him move in them plenty of times. While we are diverse in our views... we are in a unity of the Spirit. This in my opinion is a great strength if the Apostolic movement could catch on.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Just to make my point a little clearer...I agree wholeheartedly with your position. Historically and even today many oneness higher ups have been open to dialogue with the broader body. Thats my experience and prayer for today. Praying that God would direct me to fulfill His prayer; "That they all may be one".

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Amen.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Think you'll ever have unity on what are the essentials? :heeheehee

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Here is the way i deal with this subject.

First of all, i recognize that humans being what they are, are not going to do everything the way I think they should.... and my job is to love them anyway (you are welcome, you can use that all you like. my dad told me that 25 years ago...its saved me a good bit of misery)

Second, I am pretty picky about who I really "walk" with. THOSE people, I am going to be in harmony with on important matters of Doctrine. by "walk" I mean the people who I allow to speak into my life, who have permission to tell me anything they think i need to hear etc.

Third, there are those I walk with that I attend church with. I am going to teach what we beleive as a church, I am going to trust those who I know what they believe with teaching etc. and I am going to love those that are coming along beside us.

Those that are beyond that scope, I will love, will call brother, will "fellowship" with etc, but I am not digging into thier doctrines and not worried about dotting those "i's" and crossing those "t's".

Im not going to allow anyone to speak falsely or take my family or those I "walk" with down a wrong road... so if someone gets beyond the line and is influencing, well then Im going to cut bait...


those are just my thoughts.


will we ever? my point for me is, I am already with those that matter

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Great post and good point!!! :thumbsup

I remember Nona Freeman talking about walking into a church service and not understanding what she felt. She said that she asked God what it was that she felt. He replied, "Perfect unity."

The only times I have felt perfect unity is when we are all praying together. Otherwise, we get up with our own spirit and "walk" with those which we agree.

So, yes, I agree. I am already in unity with those that matter.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

The unity the scriptures present goes beyond what is being posted here.

10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Cor. 1:10

We have learned by our OWN experience that we CANNOT find true Biblical agreement with others. Yet the Holy Spirit DOES present that to us.

We are simply accepting a lower than Biblical standard.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Nope. lol

Most Pentecostals aren't that spiritually mature yet.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Please elaborate Bro. Michael.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Well Paul told the Corinthians to all speak the same thing. To be perfectly joined together in the same mind and judgment.

They were to contend for THE FAITH once delivered to the saints. Its supposed to be the same for all believers.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Oh, well, at least you know the essentials. :highfive

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

The problem is, when the Apostles died, the new church fathers took over, the original teachings have been misinterpreted ever since.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Either Paul must come back from the dead to explain things, or we must actually teach his stuff exactly like he did.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

More likely he will raise up people from among us. He can anoint them as he did the Apostles and get our attention.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

The first Apostles were FOUNDATION APOSTLES. At some point we will see RESTORATION APOSTLES. They will establish the true doctrine. They will establish New Testament Churches.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

I'm not seeing this at all. What circles are you in? The apostolic church is more separate to today than it ever was.

I will also agree with Aquilla but do you actually think that is the position of most apostolic churches? No.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Amen :thumbsup Preach brother!

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Egos and money took over. There will be a lot of lost souls because people did not hold their leaders accountable for truth.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Personally I believe this is a big issue.

Here is why:

1 Corinth. 1:10 - God wants unity, not confusion.
Ephes. 4:13 - God wants unity, not confusion.
Psalms 133:1 - Unity
Ephes 4:3 - Unity

There are more as you know..


What we now have is...

Every church is for itself. You stay in your building with your people and doctrine and I will stay in mine with my people and doctrine.


That is not unity. This is confusion. And it is hurting us.

If you believe your pastor/leader/whatever is following unity. Ask them to call another Apostolic preacher that they do not know to preach one Sunday. Let me know what happens. Some of you probably don't even feel comfortable stepping inside another Apostolic church.

There should be one church, one body. Same mind and judgement. If you think that is the case now, you need to come outside your box.

These so-called men of God, Apostles, Pastors, etc need to do what Peter and Paul did.


It is a shame because other religious organizations have more unity than we do. At least 90% of Catholics follow the pope.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Sad, but true.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Let me give a real example as to what I am talking about.

I know 2 churches that believe 99.9% of the same thing. The only exception being is that one church believes in watching no TV and the other believes in keeping their eyes from the seeing of evil. Because of this difference they refuse to come together, call each other false churches and condemn each other to hell.

Crazy.

You would think that these leaders(men of God) would come together because the bible says "How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity".

Peter and Paul said look. We both preach the same thing. Let's come together, no competing and fellowship in love for the truth.

But because of money, control and the belief that they will be rewarded in heaven for the number of people they "saved", they will not fellowship with each other.

I have other examples I can use. But it is not over doctrine why we are apart.

If you believe God meant for it to be this way, I feel for you.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Is anything too hard for the Lord?

All things are possible to them that believe.

Right now, the focus in the church world is on the fractured state of the church, i.e. on the people.

Turn the focus to the Lord Jesus, who prayed for the universal Body to be one, even as He is one with the Father.

Jesus, as Head of His own Body, with all power and authority in heaven (God's throne) and in earth (God's footstool), can unify His people.

A glorious church at His return requires perfected unity, hence why Ephesians 4 comes before Ephesians 5.

It's going to happen. Hold the faith of Abraham, who against all odds, held on to hope that the IMPOSSIBLE was going to happen for him and Sarah.

And so, I say again:

IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

I feel there are too many cultural and doctrinal differences for complete unity. The AWCF has been trying to unite the B-O-C for quite awhile now. Look them up, it's a start.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Yes! What could possibly go wrong? :lol

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

If we all decided to embrace our diversity and to walk in the Spirit (as He leads individuals and congregations) in brotherly love, having compassion towards one another... would that not be "being of one mind"??? Admonishing that we embrace this, would it not be speaking the same thing?

Most view this as everyone walking around believing, saying, and thinking the exact same thing. In the end... everyone ends up screaming for their own conviction, opinion, or understanding to define said unity.

But being in one mind and speaking the same thing as it relates to the Spirit's leading, as He leads in various ways, in the lives of various people, and within various congregations... teaching that we should all love one another as Christ has loved us... that is being absolutely unified in Spirit. That is speaking the same thing as we embrace what the Spirit is doing among us in every way imaginable and in any and every context.

One form of unity requires a doctrinal test. The other requires a unified spirit and brotherly love, patience, and compassion in spite of various doctrinal differences.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

This reminds me of something that I post quite a bit. I post it because it never ceases to confound me or be applicable. It's truth, as I have experienced it, is irrefutable. This is a conversation with God that I had in prayer a while back. What moved me is that I truly felt like God was speaking to me directly. I'll share it again here because it addresses why the church is so divided and what I believe God told me regarding the answer to this division. For whatever it is wroth... here it is:

It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....

ME:

"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"

GOD:

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

As I created the last post I posted above... I felt the Spirit of the LORD speak something into my spirit. This must be a topic dear to His heart. I normally don't feel this in all the threads I post on. Here is another "God talking" moment... I'll share it here, because I believe that if it is God... I'd be wrong for not sharing it. Here it is:

GOD:

You fail to understand that while my Word, that which you call the Bible, is infallible... your labored interpretations of it are not. Allow this truth to resonate within you and be humbled before Me.

Of course, I'll have to pray about it and seek confirmation of this truth. I've realized that when God speaks... we can never contest it's truth.

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

If it is?! You just said God spoke to you! Make up your mind! :lol

Re: Any hope for unity?
 

Be sure and let us know the outcome, won't you? ;)