POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist?
 

I have noticed something on the oneness forums that I never realize SO MANY believe. Jesus is not longer a HUMAN BEING at the same time He is God. So let's doa poll and chat more about it!

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Jesus today is the exact same thing that he was after the resurrection.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Amen. But does that include humanity?

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Define humanity.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Jesus is not a thing. Jesus is a Person. That verse explains Jesus is the same Person He has always been. He is Eternal

I answered 1) on the poll but I want to add I prefer the wording to refer to Jesus not merely as an immortal Human being but a glorified human being, having been changed. He is still Human in nature.

That change includes both His human body and a change to our sin nature when we are changed too

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Excuse me, I too do not believe that Jesus is a THING, but my mind was blank. :D

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Jesus indeed is a person. But what I mean about humanity is that He was made an immortal MAN, which is not GOD. Humanity is distinct from God. He was and is eternally God, but He manifested as a human being for salvation. I propose His humanity in that sense is still intact. It was the humanity that we would have seen with Adam had Adam not died due to sin and lived forever.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Paul said that THERE IS (present tense) one mediator... the MAN Christ Jesus as mediator for us, ever living to make intercession. He still makes intercession. Some cannot conceive how HE STILL makes intercession for us. It always amazed me why people would have an issue with that.


1 Timothy 2:5 KJV For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Good one!

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I'm a simple person and to me, the man, Son, manifestation, etc. all are so we can SEE the invisible God.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Melchizedek suggests to me that one of His manifestations is an eternal human, earthly presence of some person or other. Dunno if the crucifixion would change that any. Considering the whole program, On Earth As It Is In Heaven and all, I would guess not. Jesus is still The Man :D

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Hebrews 10:12

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Jesus is God in one mode of being. In another he is man.

At present here and now.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Another good one.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

You do realize, do you, that "eternal" means no beginning as well as no end?

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Then I would have to back that up to Christ's Second Coming :D

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

:D

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Uh, and I guess forward it to...um, ya. Not eternal. Enduring, ya.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Right.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

"Eternal" as used in most theology is a Greek pagan idea foreign to scripture. Age-enduring is closer to the truth. There is no "outside of time", unless God is an icon and not actually ALIVE.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I would not say eternal implies "outside of time." Is that what most think, though?

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I want Sean's vote.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I think it is important to believe what Jesus Himself states concerning this. Jesus speaks of the Father with distinction after His resurrection:

Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

John 20:21
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”

Jesus speaks of the Father with distinction even after His glorification in Heaven in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

With the above texts in mind, it is clear to me that the distinct (human) center of consciousness still exists after both the resurrection and His glorification on high. So the "MAN" part of Him still exists, albeit He is glorified.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I don't think Jesus exists in different modes.

He IS GOD.
He IS man.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Hey I found a fan!!!...LOL


Sure he does....1 Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)

5 For there is(present tense) one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


He(The man) is completely united in God, indwelled fully by God and is one with God now.


Colossians 2:9King James Version (KJV)

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

He does look a little different now though.....

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

It's a type

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I agree. Melchisedek had no records of lineage as the Levitical priesthood required. in type, that is like having no mother or Father, as Christ is eternal.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Sean. Really? A sword coming from His mouth? Think about it. It is symbolic of HIS WORD BEING SHARPER THAN ANY TWOEDGED SWORD. Not a literal sword.

It is symbolic vision like verse 1 said.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

"Then shall the son be subject to him who put all things under him."

What does this mean? Obviously the son is now subject to the Father as far as obedience is concerned. So how is he currently NOT subject to the Father? Or is this word "subject" meaning something else?

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I think most would say that currently, all authority has been delegated to the Son. The Father therefore now works through the Son as a means of redeeming man. However, the end will come when the plan will be complete. Then the Son will relinquish this delegated authority to the Father so that God might be all in all.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

I agree.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Then why was John frightened to death when he saw Jesus(falling at His feet) and not from the rest of the book of Rev. if it wasnt real?

When Jesus laid His right hand on John, it was not real either?

Was the voice of Jesus that came from this description of the Lord a real voice, or symbolic also?

Mike, are you for real?


Originally Posted by Sean View Post
He does look a little different now though.....

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Maybe John just ate too much pizza and had a bad dream that wasnt real..LOL

Ugh

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Of course John saw that, Sean. Phew. But he saw a VISION. We are not going to see Jesus spouting swords from his mouth. It was a vision just like he saw A LAMB WITH SEVEN EYES AND HORNS. Was that actuality, Sean?

(roll eyes).

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Well, that "vision" laid his hand on John, spoke to him and awoke him from a lifeless state...LOL


By the way, John was not seeing a vision. The word vision is not used in the entire chapter. You completely made that up. The Lord Jesus "LITERALLY" appeared to John while he was praying in the Spirit on "the Lords' day".

This was an actual "encounter" with Jesus. There is no evidence to say this was not a physical reality, on the contrary, to John, it was a physical reality

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Vision is not used in the chapter any more than rapture is used in the bible. Not only that, oneness is not used in the bible either, nor is "United Pentecostal Church". But you still believe in those things. Sean, Rev 1:1 says God SIGNIFIED the message to John. That means SIGNS related the truth. You do not agree the WORD OF GOD is sharper than any twoedged sword and that was the reason John saw Jesus with a Sword in his mouth?

Man, you'd argue white was black. lol

John saw a lamb with seven eyes and horns. Do you not believe that was a vision? The chapter said nothing about the word vision, remember. John said HE SAW IT! So the same restrictions you place on Rev 1 are on Rev 5. No words VISION mentioned, and he SAW IT. SO do you believe Jesus is actually a seven eyed lamb?

You won't answer that as usual, since you avoid points we make that show your view to be inconsistent.

John also saw the beast and the woman riding it, and he wondered with great admiration.

Anyway, you're getting so ridiculous now with your assertions, everyone can see it. An actual sword from his mouth! lol

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

You are trying to SYMBOLIZE the first 3 Chapters along with the rest? Were the 7 churches Jesus spoke of, symbolic churches or literal?

Chapter 4 is when you can try to begin to use MINOR symbolism to explain the LITERAL meanings of the passages.




Mike, you started this argument by saying it was a vision. Are you saying the hand that touched John was not real either?

The word "vision" is used 15 times in the New Testament alone. The only time it is used in Rev. is chapter 9.


Paul shows a distinction between "visions" and "Revelations" or(U]revealings[/U]) in this passage.....2 cor. 2:12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

A "revelation" as John had, is a "revealing" of Jesus to him in chapter 1.(Jesus revealed himself to John) ....

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John (does it say the "vision" of Jesus Christ?)

Does it say that John saw himself in some vision, dying from fright and being brought back by the hand of Jesus, or did it literally happen to John?

This stuff that folks teach that is not scriptural based are known as PRESUPPOSITIONS....They are a conversation starter, but must be investigated before drawing conclusions

You are just trying to use your preterist background to make this passage a vision, to try to support your theory that the whole book was not literal. I know what you are up to.(and everyone sees that also Mike)

When a person comes home to a surprise party, the partiers "reveal" themselves to the person. Jesus simply "revealed" himself to John and it startled and greatly terrified him there.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Hmm; dunno about that! Wadr.

Re: POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist
 

Sean, let me explain what I believe before you put words in my mouth,

Rev 1 is symbolic. How do I know? As I stated, the sword from Jesus' mouth is directly related to Heb 4:12 that says God's word is sharper than any twoedged Sword.

It symbolizes the WORD. Get it? From the mouth?

Secondly, Jesus flatly stated symbols to John.

Revelation 1:20 KJV The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The candlesticks he was standing in SYMBOLIZED THE SEVEN CHURCHES. The stars in his hand SYMBOLIZED THE SEVEN ANGELS OF THE CHURCHES.

John actually saw with his eyes a seven candlesticks and seven stars in His hand, like he saw the sword form his mouth. But the candlesticks and stars were symbolic. John saw a VISION. Symbolic.

The seven churches were actual churches. Rev 2-3 were chapters where THE VISION OF CHAPTER 1 had Jesus TELLING HIM TO WRITE words to seven churches. John did not see seven churches in a vision, except for the seven candlesticks that symbolized those churches in Chapter 1. HE HEARD WORDS that he was told to write in Chapters 2 and 3. He did not see seven churches in Chapters 2-3. He just heard words to write to those churches.

And Rev 1:10 says he was in the SPIRIT. That shows us it was a VISION. He said the same thing Rev 17:3 where the Spirit carried him away IN THE SPIRIT to the wilderness where he saw a monster with a whore riding it's back.

He was in the spirit, meaning IT WAS A VISION.

SYMBOLIC, Sean.

Chapter 4-5 is another vision. THE LAMB has seven eyes and horns and goes to the one on the throne. If you do not believe chapters 4 and 5 were visions, then you must believe we will see TWO IN HEAVEN... the Father sitting on the throne and the LAMB approaching the Father. But the truth is that is a symbolic vision and we are not going to see TWO. God is ONE. We will only see the BODY OF JESUS, but never God the Father because God is a Spirit who is everywhere. You cannot see someone who is everywhere or else you would not be able to see past the surface of your eyeballs. So, John saw a symbolic vision of Jesus as LAMB and HIGH PRIEST BOTH going into the holiest of holies which is heaven. And he made atonement for us like the high priest alone could only go into the holiest in the Old Testament. That's why no one was worthy to go to the throne and take the book except THE SEVEN-EYED LAMB IN REV 5:3.

It is symbolic.

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Chapter 4 is when you can try to begin to use MINOR symbolism to explain the LITERAL meanings of the passages.

You symbolize it yourself! You said Rev 4:1-WAS THE RAPTURE, when in reality ONLY JOHN WAS CAUGHT UP. If only John was caught up at the voice of the trumpet, and the church was still on earth when John saw that, and you say it is the rapture, then you are saying JOHN'S CATCHING UP is SYMBOLIC of the church.

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Mike, you started this argument by saying it was a vision. Are you saying the hand that touched John was not real either?

It was a VISION John saw where a hand touched him. If it wasn't then, why did Jesus say that the same right hand that touched him also held seven stars that were the ANGELS OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES? When John wrote the letters to the seven churches in chapters 2-3, he addressed the angel of each church. Is there a STAR in each church, and is each church a literal CANDLESTICK? You do not read everything in the chapter, Sean.

Did John take the letters he wrote and to those seven churches and hand them to each of the candlesticks he saw Jesus stand in? Did Jesus intend for John to write a letter and actually give it to one the candlesticks instead of sending it to an actual congregation in Asia Minor? You said none of it is symbolic! That means Jesus wanted him to write a letter to a CANDLESTICK!

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The word "vision" is used 15 times in the New Testament alone. The only time it is used in Rev. is chapter 9.

So what? RAPTURE is never used in the entire bible and you believe in it.

It is clearly a VISION, because John was in a CAVE and suddenly saw the golden candlesticks from the Tabernacle IN THE CAVE with Jesus holding stars. And Jesus told him the candlesticks were the churches and the stars were the angels of the churches. But you do not think it is symbolic so for you must believe there were not seven real churches
and actual since in this case CANDLESTICKS were distinctly said by Jesus to be churches, and that cannot be symbolic since you said the word VISION was not mentioned.

So which is it?

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Paul shows a distinction between "visions" and "Revelations" or(U]revealings[/U]) in this passage.....2 cor. 2:12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. A "revelation" as John had, is a "revealing" of Jesus to him in chapter 1.(Jesus revealed himself to John) ....

So, in that case a revelation of the churches being candlesticks must mean they are not actual churches but candlesticks with fires, and no people involved at all! And Jesus has seven stars that are angels of those churches. Not actual beings but impersonal STARS.

You really have quite a doctrine, Sean. It's quite a revelation, indeed, to now know that churches are not congregations, but candlesticks. Silly us!

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1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John (does it say the "vision" of Jesus Christ?)

It says the revelation of Jesus THAT WAS SIGNIFIED TO JOHN. In other words the Revelation of Jesus was revealed to John BY SIGNS, not actualities. Like Jesus in candlesticks WAS A SIGN that Jesus is in the midst of the churches, as we read about in Rev 2:1.

If this is not symbolic then you have to say that Jesus was literally in non-symbolic candlesticks, where congregations and people have nothing to do with it like actual churches that we are familiar with. Churches to JESUS in Rev 1 were not congregations of people in certain cities, but CAnLDESTICKS.

However, John was in PATMOS and Jesus said one of the candlestick churches was in EPHESUS. Was EPHESUS actually in that cave, too? Was the actual congregation physically taken tot he isle of Patmos and turned into a candlestick for an hour or so while John watched the non-symbolic scene? After all, he said the churches that were actually candlesticks were IN THOSE CITIES. But John saw them in the cave at patmos!

Can you explain how the churches can be in Patmos at the same time they're in seven different cities?

What about all the other CITIES these churches were in? Were these cities ABSENT OF THE CHURCH CONGREGATIONS, since Jesus took them and changed them into actual non-symbolic candlesticks and stood inside them in the cave with John? Or was the CAVE'S position where ONE candlestick stood, actually Thyatira. And a few feet away where the other candlestick stood the city of EPHESUS was there in the cave? In other words, ALL THESE CITIES WHERE THE CHURCHES WERE must have been inside that little cave, since you said none of it is symbolic.

For Jesus to tell John to write to the church in Ephesus was really silly, you must think. The church was right there in the cave and was turned into a candlestick! Why would he have to write to it if it was right there as that candlestick? Why did John simply go to the candlestick and tell it the words of Jesus.

Oh, maybe it could hear Jesus itself, since Jesus was in the midst of the candlesticks that he said were churches. But why would he tell john to write to them if they could hear the words of Jesus standing right there in the cave anyway? Oh, right! Candlesticks do not have EARS! But how could they read letters if they ere non-symbolic candlesticks?

Whew, you have quite the doctrine, Sean! Please explain that to us!

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You are just trying to use your preterist background to make this passage a vision, to try to support your theory that the whole book was not literal. I know what you are up to.(and everyone sees that also Mike)

Sorry, I believed this was a vision long before I knew anything about preterism LIKE ANY OTHER PERSON READILY KNOWS, Sean.

lol

Anyone futurist or preterist KNOWS THAT WAS A VISION, but for some reason you are the lone ranger who disagrees! To you, the seven churches are not congregations, but actual candlesticks!

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When a person comes home to a surprise party, the partiers "reveal" themselves to the person. Jesus simply "revealed" himself to John and it startled him there.

Sure did! I guess John w as wrong as well when he was told churches are not congregations, silly John. They are CANDLESTICKS! Non-symbolic candlesticks. And although John did not likely now it before, non-symbolic STARS CAN READ LETTERS! No wonder people started talking to the stars at night! They must have agreed with you that they are angels of churches out there in the dark nightsky!