Circumcision of the heart
 

When does the heart of a sinner get circumcised?

Please give a scriptural presentation supporting your answer.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

sinner? when does a Christian's? :lol
(insert punchline here)

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

At baptism.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This is why Romans 6:6 also mentions destroying the body of sins in association with baptism into Christ's death.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


But it is baptism DONE IN FAITH, not just baptism.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

So then they are in error who say one is uncircumcised until they receive the Spirit?

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Paul is writing these letters to the church, people who have obeyed Gods plan as preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Not really.

In baptism YOU are putting off the old man. You are circumcising yourself, in a sense, or are declaring you want to be circumcised spiritually of God. You are demonstrating to God your faith and obedience. Then at Spirit baptism he creates within you the clean heart through regeneration.

Paul makes it clear in romans 8 that "ye are not in the flesh if indeed the Spirit of God dwell within you".

Therefore until one receives the Spirit they are still in the flesh and are uncircumcised of heart.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

well, i gotta say that that was almost 40 years ago for me, and I'm still working on the 'circumcision' part!

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

What's your point?

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Circumcision is REMOVAL of body of sins of flesh. Spirit baptism is not removal of anything.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Spirit baptism is indeed a cleansing and purging as well as something new being created.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

I don't see where Spirit baptism is a cleansing. The Spirit cleanses but not by Spirit baptism. It does that work in baptism when we have faith. That's why Paul said he was told to be baptized washing away his sin. The water does not cleanse, but God does. But that is not Spirit baptism.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

hmm. the O's def resonated more with me...

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

As we all know, "Nevertheless, what saith the scriptures?"

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

ah, i was just going by the recollection of Spirit baptism; i felt cleansed. I totally blew it after that, tho... :lol

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Repentance and baptism does the removal and cleansing. Spirit infilling does the new creating. God did not have the cleanse Adam before he was created.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

It feels clean because His Spirit is HOLY. I've cast devils out of people and they remarked how overwhelmingly CLEAN they felt, though. And they never had Spirit baptism.
Nothing in the Word associates Spirit baptism with cleansing, as far as I can see, anyway. Maybe someone can correct that.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Furthermore, we are baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire. God's presence is a consuming fire that burns the dross of sin from the heart of a sinner creating within him a clean heart. It deals directly with the Adamic nature. You are the first Apostolic I've ever heard to say that the Spirit cleanses a sinner's hear at baptism. Interesting. Most say that "the blood is applied" at baptism.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

So you believe water baptism does not remit sins if a person is not Spirit baptized yet?

I believe the FIRE of the Holy Ghost and fire is not cleansing sin, but judgment against sinners. John the baptist contextually mean sinners would be burned up in judgment, not that believers are purged of sins when he said that. The idea that fire in the Holy Ghost is for believers to purge sins is out of context, actually.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Mat 3:10-12 KJV And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

It is emotional and out of context to say the fire is the inspiration and excitement of the Spirit in this context. John was strictly talking about destruction of sinners in his reference to the fire.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

water baptism is the circumcision made without hands in Colossians 2:11-12

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Some people read "baptism" as spirit baptism in all of the epistles.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

i'd like to suggest a definition of 'baptism' as more accurately 'being immersed in the waters;' with all of the relevant metaphor--'waters' being a metaphor for the great unwashed, etc. Our little ceremonial dunkings notwithstanding. Much.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Context in comparison with known verses that obviously speak of water and say the same thing, in turn say otherwise.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

There is no literal cleansing in baptism either.
Baptism is us demonstrating to God that we are surrendering that which needs cleansing and rebirth.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

New covenant circumcision is the removal or putting off of "the body of sins". Seems it is therefore tied to repentance and baptism in the name of the Lord.

In regards to the cleansing work of the Spirit, I believe Peter said of Cornelius and company that when they received the Spirit God had "purified their hearts by faith". So there seems to be a heart cleansing effect of genuine Holy Ghost baptism.

Could it be that, just like with the ideas of justification and sanctification, we have nowadays split apart what Biblically is united in the whole conversion experience process?

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

However our faith in out baptism into His death causes and moves God to commit an actual operation in removing the sins body of the sins of the flesh. That's what Col 2:11-12 flatly states. Our faith in the operation of God occurs while we are baptized. So, it's really both.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Circumcision of the heart is the removal of the adamic/carnal/nature.
This is accomplished at the point of entire sanctification which is post salvation. That the old man (the carnal nature) is not removed at salvation is obvious in scripture:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. — 1 Corinthians 3:1 (KJV)

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? — 1 Corinthians 3:3 (KJV)

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; — Ephesians 4:22 (KJV)

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; — Ephesians 4:23 (KJV)

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. — Ephesians 4:24 (KJV)

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. — Galatians 5:17 (KJV)

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Nice. Tho i much prefer "...may not do..." over "cannot" in that last one. Where is the lexicon on that site, btw? ty.
Ans Esaias, good stuff!

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

I submit that it happens as a result of our baptism but not necessarily simultaneously with it.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

The result of heart circumcision is the enabling of God to live free of sin, a pure heart, and Christian perfection. All of these things are from God none are attained through human effort. All of these are made possible by the death of Jesus through faith. Notice the following passages:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. — Romans 6:6 (KJV)

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. — 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. — 1 Thessalonians 5:24 (KJV)

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. — Acts 26:15-18 (KJV)

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; — Acts 15:8 (KJV)
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. — Acts 15:9 (KJV)

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. — 2 Peter 1:4 (KJV)

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. — Hebrews 7:19 (KJV)

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. — Hebrews 10:14 (KJV)

Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. — Hebrews 13:12 (KJV)

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. — Hebrews 13:20-21

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Whatever the case, baptism must be involved, though.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

While Colossians 2 shows a case for water baptism, i believe there is just as much of a case for spirit baptism. Being risen with Him and being quickened are both in those passages not just the death and burrial aspects. Being risen and being quickened are things the spirit brings, not water baptism.

Romans 2:29 seems to equate cicumcision of the heart to circumcision of the spirit. Romans 4:11 talks about Abraham recieving the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the faith he had. II Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, and 4:13 talk about how we're sealed by the Spirit until he redeems us (the purchased church). These various passages lead me to believe that spiritual/heart circumcision is done by the Spirit which seals us and writes God's law on our hearts. Recieving the Spirit seems to bring everything full circle.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Spirit baptism is never equated with resurrection in the epistles. It is assumed so by so many, but the bible never actually makes that point.

So many think repentance is death, baptism is burial and Spirit infilling is resurrection. But the bible never said that. When Col 2 speaks about baptism it is clearly water, because the same thing was said about baptism in 1 Peter 3-4 and Romans 6.

Romans 6 says we're baptized into His death, not repentant into his death, for example.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Do not the scriptures teach we are made alive by the Spirit?

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

I don't think so. You may be right, though. What passage would you be referring to?

We are BORN AGAIN by water and Spirit, if that's what you mean.

I do know that Romans 6 is about water baptism, and says after baptism we're to present ourselves to God as those alive from the dead. He did not mention Spirit baptism in there anywhere. Your thoughts?

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Romans 6:4-5 ...what raised Jesus up from the dead? The Glory of the Father. I propose that the Glory of the Father is the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. Just as we are to be burried with him (water baptism) we are also to be resurrected with him (spirit).

Romans 8:5-11

also a number of verses in John equate the spirit to life.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Not direct enough a passage for our experience, though. When Jesus was raised up b the Spirit we do not read that is the same means we are raised, although the Spirit washes us when we are baptized. The water doesn't wash us.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Spot on! In fact Romans 6 says we are baptized in order that we may too live a new life, just as Christ was raised by the glory (Spirit) of the Father.

And the only thing that can give a new life is God's Spirit, the same thing that raised Christ from the dead. It was our estrangement from God's Spirit that brought spiritual death to begin with. It is puzzling to me that anyone can't see this. Yes, we are baptized in order that we may live a new life, but baptism itself does not give us that life, only God's Spirit can do that.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

Exactly. But who said that was Spirit baptism? The Spirit forgives us when we repent, too, you know. But that doesn't mean we're filled with His Spirit.

Re: Circumcision of the heart
 

You are creating a new 3 step teaching. We disagree with Trinitarians who claim we are first born of the Spirit and then later baptized in the Spirit. We point out that Acts simply says folks had not yet received the Spirit, not an act of the Spirit. You are saying that the Spirit cleanses at baptism but does not stay? And then has to be asked to return at Spirit baptism? How does one remain quickened by the Spirit if he did not stay after they were cleansed by him at baptism? He is the quickening agent. Quickening is not just something he does, it is something he is.

One is born of the water (really the Spirit) and then born of the Spirit?