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Original Sin
This needs to be discussed. Unless a person changes the text of the KJV, original sin cannot be denied. What think all of you?
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Re: Original Sin
Romans 5 says that one man's disobedience made many into sinners. That is essentially the doctrine of original sin in a nutshell directly from the bible.
Rom 5:18-19 KJV Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Because Christ's righteousness is given to us all, then by the same token Adam's sin was given to us all. |
Re: Original Sin
1Co 15:21-22 KJV For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
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don't get me wrong; original sin exists. i have no problem with that. but when it was made into a doctrine, "Original Sin"--incidentally, over the objections of many, splitting a Council, and the Est'd church at the time apart--it became, i am convinced, our downfall.
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see that "original sin" is not just some handy doctrine to explain why we need Grace--that part is fine
http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models |
Re: Original Sin
and, an erudite woman--Hanne Nabintu Herland? witnessing the fruit...
http://rt.com/shows/worlds-apart-oksana-boyko/ (wow, those identifying with the church in Russia up like 100% since the 90s, who knew) (200 million Chinese Christians!) |
Re: Original Sin
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Re: Original Sin
yes, i am seeing more clearly now that is proceeding from this, as a starting point, that is the problem.
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Sin nor a tendency to sin was passed down to us from Adam. However, as we are all sons of Adam we all take part in his curse, natural death. That curse is upon us whether we sin or do not sin. I mean even Jesus died. Romans 5:12 "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. There is no other verse that will back this thought up: Adam sinning did not make us sin. Therefore I conclude the best reading of Romans 5:19 is that one man's disobedience made us as sinners before God and likewise one man's rightouesness made us as righteous before God. What I have posted here is the clear teaching throughout romans, that we are not righteous but that we are counted as righteous because of Christ's righteousness. |
Re: Original Sin
It seems to me that we have inherited our father Adams' sin nature.
But when we are born again, we are given a new nature from our new Father to help us overcome our old nature of sin...... 2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. |
Re: Original Sin
i think the argument is that it has made us sin and death centered or focused, rather than proceeding from Grace as a starting point. Note that you started and finished with sin, essentially. It frames the conversation, iow.
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There is another view that many Christians seem to ignore, that being that scripture speaking of death does not mean natural death. But separation from relationship with God. Yes I have heard the detailed explanations of Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. When God said this that what is meant is that man would begin to die. But God did not say that he said "in the day you eat you shall die" and we know from the story that as soon as Adam and Eve ate there was a change in the way they viewed God and each other. First they realized they were naked and then they hid from God. This happened the very moment they ate the fruit. I must ask the question, why are we so wrapped up in the natural death, and resurrection, when we should be more about the new life Christ death brought to mankind in this life? Did not Jesus say he came to bring life and that more abundantly? Was this speaking of eternal life or this life? |
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Re: Original Sin
:lol no kidding, arg
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Re: Original Sin
Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?
Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement? |
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is different from the catholic doctrine. Truth is, I see many Pentecostal arguments resemble those from the daughters of the "Mother of Harlots". My view is that although we inherit the propensity to sin (because of our free will), infants are not born WITH sin: that was taken care of on Calvary: where forgiveness of sins (AKA mercy) was tendered. Although the natural mind has a tendency to interchange mercy and grace, and forgiveness and remission, they are NOT the same. |
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If it were true that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his physical body (Genesis 3:19), then the question arises, Who informed Cain and Abel of the commandment to offer a sacrifice to God upon an altar for sin. There are NO scriptural texts that discloses God or any other ever making these sons of Adam aware of this requirement, therefore common logic allows one to conclude that they were instructed in it by Adam. If he were "dead spiritually" he could not have instructed them in the way of righteousness. Furthermore, to conclude that Adam "died spiritually," which would be the same as stating that God also judged him unworthy of eternal life, serves to negate Peter's words of 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not ... willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." |
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Yes, but sinners just keep on sinning. The way that folks can be included in the atonement is to repent of their sins.(which leads to the rest for us in our dispensation of PROMISE). |
Re: Original Sin
Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Do you believe, then, that all children who die are accursed and go to "hell"? or perhaps some go to "purgatory! I like this discussion!!! Jesus said this about children(which are born under the Law)..... Matthew 19:14 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And Paul said this to them......Ephesians 6 6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. I believe that a 5 year old that dies in a car accident is saved by GRACE here, even though, because of immaturity, they are not born again and are still under the Law!!! |
Re: Original Sin
But when a fully mature person understands the requirement to be born again to be saved, they must act accordingly(whatever age that may be).
There are 10 year olds that are more mentally mature than some 30 year olds in some cases. |
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1) There was only the commandment that brought forth the curse of death: '...dying, you shall die..."; and Adam eventually died. However, God did not "separate" Himself from Adam, for He sought and called for Adam. 2) Cain and Abel indeed heard of the testimony in the garden: and the most important part was that Adam and Eve came under the curse of death, and that God had clothed them (covered their sin). "the altar of sin": there was no sacrifice...for sin. Abel's sacrifice was a confession that he ,ALSO, would die and that he needed a sacrificial covering by God. You see, Abel believed his father's testimony in the garden! 3) Man was only meant to die physically, not spiritually. God had already made provision for man's redemption: Gen. 1:3__"And God said, 'Let there be light'..." Jn. 1:4__"In the beginning was the word...in him was life, and the life was the light of men." |
Re: Original Sin
Sin breaks communion with God, this separation is "spiritual", thus it is a type of death.(spiritual death).
Guys, you realize we were once dead in our trespasses and sins right?... Ephesians 2 2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: This looks "spiritually" dead to me.(definitely not physically) Prior to our conversion, we were the walking dead |
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Sean, IF sin "broke communion" between man and God, then just how is it possible for sinful man to communicate with God? No, sin does NOT sever all lines of communication with God, else man, being conceived in sin, is damned from the very moment he exits his mother' womb! If it were true, as you've stated, that sin brings about a "break" in communion with God, then how do you explain Adam "hearing the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden" AFTER he had sinned? What hope are you leaving for the likes of you and I when we sin, and we do at times despite our best efforts otherwise, that God will hear our cry for forgiveness? You are making our God out to be a "one sin and you're out" Judge, and that He definitely is NOT! If such were the case then He would never have robed Himself in human flesh, experienced its death so that sinful man might have the only thing He would accept as an atonement for their sin, that is, His pure blood. What sin brought into existence in Adam's case, was to disrupt the "harmonious" relationship between himself and God which he had enjoyed up to that moment when he willfully sinned. And it is the same for you and I Did Adam and Eve ever communicate again with God after being cast from the garden at Eden? Absolutely! Did not God communicate with Cain, who sinned by slaying his brother Abel? Yes! Why have you completely neglected to take into consideration the definitions I've provided for "death" and "spiritual"? The words of II Samuel 14:14 advises that "death" is likened to water that is spilt on the ground: it simply CANNOT be gathered up again. Such is it with death. One experiences death, and there is no possible recovery from it! That is why God, who alone has POWER over all things, including death, was made likened unto sinful flesh, so that through death He gained victory over it for us. By asserting, or even suggesting that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his fleshly body, is the very same thing as sentencing him to hell's fire! The truth is, the Bible does not tell us whether Adam was ever reconciled to God, although I suspect that he was. Nevertheless, neither you nor I, or any other is his judge, so lets not be so hasty in casting him into the devil's furnace! |
Re: Original Sin
well, Sean, that has always been my thinking, but they have given me something to ponder there...good points, Lafon, Phoenix...
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Re: Original Sin
Sean, Paul's words of Ephesians 2:2 & 5, that is, the phrases "who were dead in trespasses and sins" and "we were dead in sins," are what we refer to as "figures of speech," a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar.
If Paul was stating that we were truly "DEAD," then what possible way would the likes of you and I ever had to even come to an understanding of our lost condition or to petition God for forgiveness? Are the dead capable of thought, speech, or the ability to speak? Of course not! So we see we were NOT literally "dead" in our sins, else we would have been rendered utterly incapable of even knowing that we were lost sinners! |
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shazeep, Sometimes we ALL (me included) are too quick to read a particular scriptural passage and form an opinion of what we think it states, and this without pausing to "chew" it for a bit. I've discovered that when I just stop and really examine each word, carefully comparing what is being expressed with other passages wherein the same thing is mentioned, and only then allowing myself to form an opinion, it is far better than simply "jumping to a conclusion"! I'm happy to discover that you've elected to "ponder" this matter more carefully. Reminds me of a quote I read long ago - It is good to pause from time to time and take a close "second look" at the things I was most assured of at "first glance." |
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yup!
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This speaks of the judgment of sin, which is death. The Law of Sin and Death is still active: so every man that sins automatically incurs the judgment of death. Does death always occur immediately? Sometimes. But we must remember that the Law of Mercy is also in effect: and that "...mercy rejoices against judgment." It is God's mercy that withholds His judgment: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at (turned his face away from our sin); but now commands all men everywhere to repent:..." When God shows mercy, we do not [immediately] receive the just recompense of the punishment due for our sins. Yes, we who have believed and obeyed were once subject to the Law of Sin and Death: but now, after having been looked upon with mercy, have we received grace, and are made "...partakers of the heavenly gift." |
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Lafon, I believe Adam was probably saved, but lost his communion with God as the Lord intended because of sin. Im sure Adam and Eve repented, which put them back in Gods' good graces. However, the walk in the garden became a thing of the past. However, the issue at hand I was speaking of is inherent sin.(from the fall of man). The gift of repentance is connected to grace for sinners from day 1. If an unrepented sinner does not repent, they naturally will not want to communicate with God, because God requires repentance 1st. This is my definition of how sin breaks communion with God. |
Re: Original Sin
Great stuff, folks. Will respond soon. Busy with family! :D
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It is for this reason that after Romans 5 speaks of death due to Adam, in Romans 6 we read JESUS LITERALLY HAD TO PHYSICALLY DIE on the cross to take our deaths upon Himself, of which we partake in baptism. We're baptized into his physical death not a spiritual one. he did not have to die spiritually alone for us to be baptized into his death. he had to physically die. If it is only spiritual death, then why use physical death as the penalty as though physical death had nothing to do with sin and Adam would have physically died, anyway? NATURAL death is as much a result of sin as spiritual death. We're wrapped up in it because of what Paul taught, not just in Romans 5 but Romans 5 through 6 with physical death of Christ to redeem us. Heb 9 says all of us are appointed to die once, and that is why Christ died once in our stead. Heb 9:27-28 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. |
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i find little to argue with there; yet it begs the question why we don't abate physical death by redemption?
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Spiritual death is very real. When the bible speaks of dead in trespasses and sins, it refers to spiritual alienation from God. And when we are saved we are baptized into HIS DEATH to resurrect into newness of life right now. We are alive from the dead after having been baptized into His death. And Rom 6:11 says we must reconcile ourselves to be alive unto God, so we can then render ourselves to Him as those alive from the dead.
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Re: Original Sin
see the way in which the doctrine, however, has impeded this in the West; for your soul's sake, imo.
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