Apostolic Friends Forum - Obey them that have the rule over you

Page 1 of 3

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Apostolic Friends Forum (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)

- Fellowship Hall (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7)

- - Obey them that have the rule over you (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=47303)

KeptByTheWord

01-09-2015 03:00 PM

Obey them that have the rule over you

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Originalist

01-09-2015 03:26 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351293)

It means that if your pastor renounces the Apostolic doctrine that you are duty bound to follow him without question.

shazeep

01-09-2015 03:32 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

:lol

Pressing-On

01-09-2015 03:34 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1351295)

It means that if your pastor renounces the Apostolic doctrine that you are duty bound to follow him without question.

I'm sure you are being factious.

However, and seriously, the passage does not mean to follow leadership blindly.

"Considering" in the Greek means, "to look at attentively, to consider well, to observe accurately." :thumbsup

No one is given carte blanche with the Gospel. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.

shazeep

01-09-2015 03:38 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351293)

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?

in the context that when it was written it was natch assumed that your society's and nation's leaders would be men of faith. this is not talking about "church" imo.

Timmy

01-09-2015 03:43 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Well, it's easier to obey them (thinking of pastors, here) if you choose them carefully in the first place: find one that believes as you already do. :heeheehee

shazeep

01-09-2015 03:57 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1351299)

...the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.

here we go :lol

granted, in context. The other side of that coin is that if you are truly seeking God--and not vanity--then it is ultimately you seeking your own salvation. You can trust that the Spirit will guide you, even through painful lessons in vanity, which early ones often are. It is difficult to learn to see the unseen; and an argument can be made that "in your own eyes" is the only way you can come to understand something, especially when it is learning to see with different eyes. You are prolly going to pretty much follow the Wanderings in the Sinai, no matter what; and if you are stalled somewhere on that path you might at least consider whether you are being led to a new Right Pastor, imo, but the point is people are going to differ on points, this is how they--hopefully--grow.

shazeep

01-09-2015 03:59 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1351302)

Well, it's easier to obey them (thinking of pastors, here) if you choose them carefully in the first place: find one that believes as you already do. :heeheehee

hmm, i think this misrepresents a pastor's role...but then, i would! :D

KeptByTheWord

01-09-2015 04:46 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1351295)

It means that if your pastor renounces the Apostolic doctrine that you are duty bound to follow him without question.

I know you meant this with humor... but seriously... would you assume then it is talking about a pastor's role? What about the other 5-fold ministries?

KeptByTheWord

01-09-2015 04:46 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep (Post 1351300)

in the context that when it was written it was natch assumed that your society's and nation's leaders would be men of faith. this is not talking about "church" imo.

So you are thinking this passage has more to do with political government rather than church government?

KeptByTheWord

01-09-2015 04:48 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1351299)

I'm sure you are being factious.

However, and seriously, the passage does not mean to follow leadership blindly.

"Considering" in the Greek means, "to look at attentively, to consider well, to observe accurately." :thumbsup

No one is given carte blanche with the Gospel. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but the Bible never gives a person permission to follow whatever path they think is right - in their own eyes.

Amen to all, especially to the bolded. :)

KeptByTheWord

01-09-2015 04:50 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 1351302)

Well, it's easier to obey them (thinking of pastors, here) if you choose them carefully in the first place: find one that believes as you already do. :heeheehee

So... is it safe to assume you think this passage is referencing "pastors"? Not that it is safe to assume anything about what you post, lol!

thephnxman

01-09-2015 06:07 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351293)

How do you interpret this passage of scripture? Hebrews 13:7-17 ... considering especially verses 7 and 17?
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

"Remember them which have the rule over you (preceded you), have spoken unto you the
word of God...Obey them that have the rule over you (preceded you) , and submit yourselves..."

Who are they that "have the rule" (preceded)? Those who adhere to a "one-man" rule in
the Church will say the "pastor". But they ignore the role of the Ministry and the Church.

shazeep

01-09-2015 06:22 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351334)

So you are thinking this passage has more to do with political government rather than church government?

well, that seems to depend upon who rules over you, yes? Which can actually get quite sticky :lol but the image of a pastor's "ruling" does not agree with my understanding of the relationship, no. It implies an earthly mediator.

Timmy

01-09-2015 07:26 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351337)

So... is it safe to assume you think this passage is referencing "pastors"? Not that it is safe to assume anything about what you post, lol!

No idea . Lol

KeptByTheWord

01-09-2015 08:02 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Well, clarifying who the "them" is is a good place to start, next clarifying what "rule over" means as well.

thephnxman

01-10-2015 12:33 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351372)

Well, clarifying who the "them" is is a good place to start, next clarifying what "rule over" means as well.

"THEM" are they who have "...spoken unto you the word of God...". It is safe to assume
that it could be the Ministry or someone in the Church who performed "...the work of
the ministry". Paul declared, "I have begotten you through the gospel."

"RULE OVER" means those who have gone before, who has preceded you: who
have been saved before you and are mature in the faith and know how to perform
"...the work of the ministry".

KeptByTheWord

01-10-2015 08:44 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephnxman (Post 1351389)

Awesome. This is what we understood as well when we studied this passage out.

Obey
πείθω STRONG’S NUMBER: g3982
To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.

Obedience is unto their example, as in verse 7 mentioning "whose faith follow" not unto their person or desires. Their example is produced by the Holy Ghost, and so one's obedience would be to the Holy Ghost-- not to a particular man.

Rule over
ἡγέομαι STRONG’S NUMBER: g2233
To lead or go before, go first, lead the way.

Better said:
Be persuaded by the example of those who go before you

I had never heard it taught this way all the many, many years I was in OP churches though. We were to "obey" - meaning every little whim and wish of the pastor - because this verse was used as a stick to beat us with if we didn't.

ILG	01-10-2015 12:46 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

It's amazing how twisted some of the scriptures have gotten based on tradition.

thephnxman

01-10-2015 02:00 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351419)

Awesome. This is what we understood as well when we studied this passage out.
Obey
πείθω STRONG’S NUMBER: g3982
To persuade, particularly to move or affect by kind words or motives.
Obedience is unto their example, as in verse 7 mentioning "whose faith follow" not unto their person or desires. Their example is produced by the Holy Ghost, and so one's obedience would be to the Holy Ghost-- not to a particular man.
Rule over
ἡγέομαι STRONG’S NUMBER: g2233
To lead or go before, go first, lead the way.
Better said:
Be persuaded by the example of those who go before you

I had never heard it taught this way all the many, many years I was in OP churches though. We were to "obey" - meaning every little whim and wish of the pastor - because this verse was used as a stick to beat us with if we didn't.

We are to obey the word that comes through the anointing, whether by the Ministry
or the church; for therein lies the power. Now this is worth repeating: Power and
authority is manifest in direct proportion to the Ministry's or individual's OBEDIENCE
to the Word.

Esaias

01-10-2015 03:47 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Paul was ready to offer a "proof of Christ speaking" in him to the Corinthians who doubted his authority and wisdom. He didn't offer denominational "credentials" as proof, though. Phoenix is right, the power is in the Word. Even if it comes from the mouths of babes and sucklings...

Praxeas

01-10-2015 04:04 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Obey then that pull the wool over your eyes? :laffatu

Sean	01-10-2015 10:10 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1351498)

Obey then that pull the wool over your eyes? :laffatu

Lol.....good one!!!

good samaritan

01-10-2015 11:19 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

I am glad to have pastors in my life. The labels and the way we use terms may be a little different, but I am glad that I can submit myself to another. If someone is doing something to jeapordize the soul of you are your family they shouldn't be in your life, but if they love and care about you then probably you should appreciate the influence they have. We live in a generation of rebels who don't want anyone telling them what they should do.

I wish there was a poll done for those who submitted to God fearing leadership and those who think that their salvation is personal and everyone else should stay out. Which do you think would be the most prosperous in their life? We all are following someone's influence in our life so we might as well get use to the fact that we don't have complete control. Follow good leaders and avoid the wolves in sheeps clothing.

P.S. I think it is safe to go by KJV translation (using a little common sense) and you don't have to weaken it down any. Hopefully with your children at home obey is not such a bad word.

good samaritan

01-10-2015 11:28 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

I believe that most who pastor a church or elders wichever you call it know that a title and a position doesn't get you very far with people. Trust is earned. When people learn to trust that you care for them and want only to help them in their relationship with God then they will decide the leaders they allow in their life. If you are serving God you will have Godly influence in your life(I call them pastors)!!!! When a person is hungry for God they look for any place they can possibly glean from.

KeptByTheWord

01-10-2015 11:37 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILG (Post 1351463)

It's amazing how twisted some of the scriptures have gotten based on tradition.

Yes, really true!

KeptByTheWord

01-10-2015 11:43 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephnxman (Post 1351471)

We are to obey the word that comes through the anointing, whether by the Ministry
or the church; for therein lies the power. Now this is worth repeating:

Power and authority is manifest in direct proportion to the Ministry's or individual's OBEDIENCE to the Word.

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?

Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?

How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

KeptByTheWord

01-10-2015 11:46 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1351493)

1 Cor. 2:4 "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of men's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power, that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

Powerful stuff right there!

KeptByTheWord

01-10-2015 11:47 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 1351498)

Obey then that pull the wool over your eyes? :laffatu

Thanks for your wooly ...oops... worthy contribution to this subject Prax ;) ... lol!

good samaritan

01-10-2015 11:51 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

I have heard scholars say that most today use only enough hebrew and greek to get into trouble with their interpretations. I use a strong sometimes but If it changes the meaning based upon my study then I will stick with what the Bible says. It makes no sense to me why we think interpretations are getting more reliable. As time goes further and culture becomes more foreign then I believe that the KJV translation is more reliable then anyone on this forum. In a hundred years we will have people saying the words mean something different then what we believe now. All of my family have depended ancestory have relied on the KJV translation and I trust it.

Esaias

01-10-2015 11:52 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351602)

Everything must be judged by the Word. The Didache says to receive prophets ... unless they ask for some money. lol

KeptByTheWord

01-11-2015 12:01 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan (Post 1351599)

Bro. GS - I appreciate the sweet spirit that you always share your thoughts with. Please understand that thread was not started with a "pastor bashing" discussion in mind.

I truly believe with all my heart, and perhaps more than ever before, in worthy servant-led leadership in the church. Sadly, there is so much leadership today by those who feel "called" to the ministry (or set in place by their fathers) who feel "called" to a position with perks and benefits, and want no part being the servant in ministry that Jesus spoke of.

I hope that more discussion on the subject will open the eyes of those who think a pastor or person in leadership can act as a dictator towards those who he is leading. We certainly don't see a dictatorship/pope type leadership example anywhere in the NT church. Instead we see Paul speaking of working with his own hands, traveling from church to church, experiencing persecution, and exhorting believers to follow his faith as a leader, setting up elders, deacons, and bishops in the churches to lead the church by example.

Bro. GS, from reading your posts, I sense your heartfelt desire to lead your church towards a more powerful relationship with the Lord, and believe that from what I have read of your posts, that your desire is to further the kingdom of God, and not rule as a dictator, setting up your own personal church kingdom. God Bless :)

KeptByTheWord

01-11-2015 12:28 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1351606)

Everything must be judged by the Word. The Didache says to receive prophets ... unless they ask for some money. lol

LOL... I wouldn't begrudge giving to those who are truly laboring in the gospel, and don't. We give where there are needs that need to be met, wherever they are. It gives us great joy to give.

There is not a modern day minister that I know of who has not - at least at one point in their ministry - asked for money. Do you know of one? Lol

We don't find record of Paul raising money for his missionary trips, but we do see him writing of the need of the persecuted saints in Jerusalem for which he took up a collection for to bring to them.

KeptByTheWord

01-11-2015 12:31 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan (Post 1351605)

So are you disagreeing here with the Strong's definition of obey?

thephnxman

01-11-2015 10:21 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351602)

I agree to a point here. But here is a thought for consideration - what about this scripture?
Matt. 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are people who did great works in the name of the Lord, obviously with great power and authority, yet the Lord says unto them - depart from me, I never knew you?
How do you reconcile this scripture with your bolded statement above?

OK. Let’s put our emphasis on the words in bold, not detracting from
the content or
the Biblical context.

v. 21) Many will call Him “Lord”, only giving Him lip service. Those
who hear and obey will inherit God’s kingdom.
[Hear what?] Hear the call to repent and heed the gospel that saves:
THAT is the will of the Father;

v. 22) “There is none other NAME…”. There is power in the NAME
of Jesus! The power is not in the person or the denomination: it is in the NAME.
Using the power of the NAME does not mean the person is right: it means the
person is using the right NAME!
“But why were they healed, delivered, etc.?” Because God honors the NAME
and testifies of the power and righteousness endowed to the bearer of the NAME!
These are people who believe, but have not obeyed: they are in rebellion
with the word of God;

v. 23) There was no “intimacy” with the Lord. Adam“knew” Eve:
he had an intimate relationship with her. There is something above
all else that hinders intimacy with God: it is disobedience: it will manifest
itself in the refusal to repent, be baptized, or receive the impartation
of the Holy Spirit.

KeptByTheWord

01-11-2015 11:28 AM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephnxman (Post 1351663)

Thank you for taking the time to share your understanding of this verse. It is what I have understood it to mean as well. It is good for all of us to understand that just because we witness power, miracles, and authority using the name of Jesus does not immediately signify that the one being used of God is actually in submission to the Lord, and is in right standing with the Lord.

good samaritan

01-11-2015 04:10 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1351615)

So are you disagreeing here with the Strong's definition of obey?

I have noticed when looking up words in my strong's that the alternative words to describe the one Hebrew or Greek word it is trying to define. The KJV translators have already translated the scriptures hundreds of years ago and I have faith that God would preserve His word through their translation. I believe that their choice of the word obey was for a reason. Many times the choice of English word had a lot to do with the context it was used in. Many times one greek word is used by multiple English words and sometimes the words even have conflicting meanings.

I don't have time to start giving examples, but I have seen it several times in my studies. I am sure there is a reason this is done that I am not aware of. It would probably be impossible for us to go through scripture and re-translate and I don't think ours would be reliable. lol. The word follow and obey doesn't have the same meaning although with some explaining I can see how they correlate. The problem is that follow puts less emphasis on having leadership in your life.

It just seems to me that a lot of people have written posts that show disdain for church government and leaders. I understand what is like for a leader to hurt you but also as a leader I also know what it is like to be hurt by people who I have poured myself into serving. I just believe people should be careful not allow bitterness to enter there heart and become a rebel with a christian label.

P.s I am not saying this directed at you. I just think this is a good thread to communicate my thoughts on subject.

Sean	01-11-2015 04:30 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan (Post 1351694)

G.S., if I may add to your post a little....

The KJV translators had their own personal works to use in the Greek- English translation method.

The most recent Greek/English translations(Strongs etc.) are hundreds of years removed from 1611 and these recent works are only subject to the authors opinions.

Our best bet is to trust the KJV translators with the closest translation of English words translated from ancient Greek, because they were fluent in a more "traditional" form of ancient Greek, rather than trust the ones that learned it hundreds of years later in classrooms in a "hand me down" arena of thought or opinion.

All I use is an old dictionary for word search meanings.

shazeep

01-11-2015 05:12 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

it's hard for me to grasp why one could not translate for themselves, when we all have web lexicons available to us now. The KJV is a decent translation, but with obvious flaws. Personally i think one cheats themselves by relying on one version.

thephnxman

01-11-2015 06:21 PM

Re: Obey them that have the rule over you

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep (Post 1351701)

Who is the Holy Spirit?

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:31 PM.

Page 1 of 3

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page