Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

I am looking for the following information:

1. Who were founding or early influential preachers in the PAJC and the PCI? I need their names, dates, and locations.

2. What is Frank Ewart's history? What connection did he have with either the PCI or PAJC?

3. Did RE McAlester (sp?) have any connections with William Durham (of Chicago fame)?*EDIT: I just found some of that info. Apparently the two worked together at times, and McAlester organized a convention in 1912 in Canada which Durham oversaw.

4. Who was John Scheppe and what happened to him after Arroyo Seco 1913?

5. Who in the early PCI and PAJC were "three steppers" (so called) and who were "one steppers" (so called)? I mean which prominent preachers of each group held to which view?

More questions as I think of them. Any help would be appreciated.

EDIT: 6. Who was "Dr Sykes" of Arroyo Seco fame? I found a testimony from 1911 or 1912 that a Sykes had been healed in a meeting with Frank Ewart in Los Angeles... wondering if they are the same guy?

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

BTW, I just stumbled across proof that PRIOR TO 1913 there were Pentecostals teaching that Holy Ghost baptism is synonymous with being saved, and that there were Pentecostals teaching and preaching Jesus' name baptism. I'll post my sources later but this is all highly fascinating.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

I think Brother Epley will know these answers he is a whiz in Pentecostal history. Hope he sees this.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

According to this: http://www.greateremmanuelchurch.com...th/haywood.htm G. T. Haywood was preaching Acts 2:38 and John 3:5 in 1922. The water/spirit new birth was being preached 9 years after Arroyo Seco.

Was Haywood taught by Ewart, or Glenn Cook?

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Ah, so Haywood learned from Cook. Who else in those early days linked Acts 2:38 with John 3:5?

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

The Word and Witness, Oct 1915 contains E N Bell's explanation of why he got baptized in Jesus' name. He includes a repudiation of identifying Acts 2:38 with John 3:5, proving that the "water and spirit" view of the new birth was being contested in 1915.

That is only 2 years after Arroyo Seco.

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That same issue has a letter signed by E N Bell, H A Goss, M M Pinson, DCO Opperman, and a couple others, repudiating the teaching that the baptism with the Spirit is spiritual regeneration, that Jesus is the Father, and that Christ is the Holy Ghost, and a couple other issues.

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This site has a lot of articles on history:

https://oldlandmark.wordpress.com/

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

I do not have any data about John Scheppe.

Frank Ewart pastored in Los Angeles until his death in 1947. He did preach for Harry Morse a few times. Morse preached the funeral for Ewart. The church Ewart founded still exixts, it is located in Pasadena. Ewart pubished his own magazine for a few years. It was called Word and Witness, I think. He also published 2 books.

Those Azuza Street folks, as a rule, did not stay in one church "denomination" for very long. Some never joined any church. Bartleman never did. Morse was in several in his lifetime. I think Ewart was in the UPC at the time of his death.

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These "issues" are quite sound imo.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Yes. What I'm trying to track down is the origins of what here on AFF are called "the PCI and the PAJC views". In 1913 Jesus name baptism was mentioned by McAlester at the Arroyo Seco camp meeting. A Mr Sheppe (one source may refer to him as Shaeffe?) started preaching everyone should be rebaptized in the name. Ewart agreed and shortly later Cook and Ewart rebaptized each other. The " new issue" spread quickly.

At some point there developed two views: one maintained that Acts 2:38 explained John 3:5, the other rejected that view. Glenn Cook and G T Haywood believed the former. Goss and a few others believed the latter.

The two views co-existed side by side and were represented in the Merger producing the UPC. It looks as though the two views were present from the beginning of the "new issue". In fact, I believe they were present BEFORE the 1913 ruckus (more on that later).

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

I will try I am out of town so this is memory(I am 64:heeheehee) so it could be faulty.
Firstly both the PCI and PAJC were later developments all were PAW originally.
And it seems Ewart, Cook, Haywood, Opperman, Bartleman, Urshan all believe Jn.3:5 & Acts 2:38 was the new birth.
Howard Goss did not.
Those leaders in the latter PAJC were new birth men: Witherspoon, Urshan, Norris, Rowe, the majority.
Leaders in the PCI who did not believe the new birth message: Goss, Gurley, Yadon, Greer, Reed, Brown, Kidson.
2. Ewart's history is interesting he was new birth but for a season he taught universalism but later recanted but lost his influence.

3. I think Mcallester returned to the Canadian AG?
4. I think he was closely associated with Ewart's work in LA?
5. I think I answered this? Although both David Gray and Harry Branding , George Glass were PCI all believed the new birth.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Thank you elder. I am discovering there people preaching the new birth right at the beginning. And I have evidence it was happening as early as 1908 to a certain extent. I am thinking the so called one-step view was NOT the "original Oneness view" but was maintained by some people to avoid reaching uncomfortable conclusions?

Someone was claiming Cook had a Campbellite background. Any evidence of that?*EDIT: just read elder Epley said he found no such evidence. Where did the claim originate, Fudge?

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Haywood clearly taught new birth as did Cook and did Ewart decades before the PCI? The two earliest American group were the PAW & COOLJC both taught the new birth.
I have found NO proof Cook was associated with the Campbellites.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Gillespie.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

According to Ewart he himself formulated the message of Oneness and Acts 2:38 about 1914. Not that he invented it but in the sense of restoring it.

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Is this stated in his Phenomenon of Pentecost? I would take issue with that statement, unless it be said he was the one who put Acts 2:38 and John 3:5 and the Oneness of God together in one package. Even then I would be skeptical due to recent information I found out.

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I am probably wrong, but I think Haywood was the first to tie Jn. 3:5 and Acts 2:38 together. A Haywood scholar would know best.

Somewhere in the Harry Morse post is the article Ewart wrote and published right after the Arroyo Seco camp meeting.

Urshan first began baptizing in the name of Jesus in 1910.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Where can I find Urshan's story?

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Did Haywood bring that message to Cook, or was it the other way around?

My word somebody needs to write a book lol.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Cook brought the message to Haywood who was better in articulating and a prolific writer.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Anybody visited this sight?

http://www.apostolicarchives.com/page/page/5834251.htm

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Very informative.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

Yes I've been to apostolic archives. Lot's of info there.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

There are a number of books already written about that era. I have the digital copy of Pentecostal History from PPH, which has several books included with more information.

The Early Pentecostal Revival
It's Real (The story of C.A. Nelson)
Old Time Preacher Men
The Phenomenon of Pentecost
Profiles of Pentecostal Preachers (Volumes 1 & 2)
etc, etc, etc,

I'm not sure all (or any) of them cover the same topics, but it's possible. I haven't read through most of them.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

My focus has been on the timeline of the life of Harry Morse. He moved around a lot prior to settling down.

His relationships with others is also interesting.

How he was influenced theologically is also something I try to investigate.

His influence on my alma mater is also something I think about.

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Does anybody know what Cook and Haywood were doing 1908-1912? Was the PAW organized at that time?

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

PAW was organized in Oregon in 1907. Bishop by the name of Frazee. Haywood was pastoring in Indy and Cook was evangelizing helping folks connected to Azusa.

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Bishop Haywood taught the light doctrine, didn't think acts 238 was essential for all.

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I've been reading up on that. The Light doctrine was that BEFORE the current light on scripture, folks had to obey what God had revealed up to that time. But NOW there is more light, so everyone has to obey that which God had revealed.

I'll get an actual presentation of the light doctrine from back then and post it in a few minutes.

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Huh? Light doctrine acceptable back then but not now?

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The following is an excerpt of an article from "The Blessed Truth" newsletter, published August 15, 1918 at Eureka Springs, Arkansas.

We need not worry about those who have died and gone on. God will take care of them. We are not responsible for them and they are not responsible for us. They will not have to face the requirement that you and I will have to face. They will stand before God for the light of their day and you and I for the light of our day.

In reading Rev. 20:11-15, we see all the dead come up before God, and the books are opened and the dead are judged out of the things that are written in the books. That is where those that have died without the Holy Spirit will stand to be judged by a just God, who will give to all their just reward. Those who have gone down before God and been filled with the Holy Ghost or born again will not be judged in this judgment for they have already been reigning with Christ as kings and priests for one thousand years. Some might say that none but the wicked would be in this judgment, but you can plainly see that some had their names written in the book of life. Those that died before the light came will be judged according to their works. Those who have the light and refuse to walk in the light will have no chance in this judgment, they will be among those that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken unto them they had not sin, but now they have no cloak for their sins." - John 13:22. The light has come and the thing that is keeping you from the Holy Ghost is a failing to repent unto life. That will most assuredly keep you out of heaven.

(by H. E. Reed)

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

The PAW did not begin as a Oneness organization. No, I do not have the dates for it handy. Harry Morse was in the pre Oneness PAW.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

The Blessed Truth newsletter was the official publication of the PAW.

Re: Epley, Sam, Scott, others help me out
 

It does seem Fraizee was baptizing in Jesus Name prior to the association with the men who left the AG in 1914-15?