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Esaias 05-24-2015 09:51 PM
Christ and the Atonement
 
During today's bible discussion a point was brought up. Our Lord fulfilled not only the Christological typology of Passover, but of Atonement as well. But here's the thing:

Hebrews says the old covenant ceremonies were types of heavenly realities. On the day of Atonement the high priest went into the most holy place and made an atonement, not only for the people, but for the sanctuary itself. Hebrews says the earthly tabernacle and furniture were patterns of the heavenly things. The patterns were purified with animal blood, but the heavenly things with Christ's blood.

So... does this not say that the heavens themselves were purified? It seems strange to think of heaven requiring purification and sanctification, but that is plainly what is said, is it not?

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Thoughts?

mfblume 05-25-2015 10:29 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
I believe it's saying heaven had to be prepared for our presence, so to speak. So we could be there. Heaven is pristine. Our presence there is much different than what has occurred there before. So the purification was for us. Nothing can be left in heaven that would prevent us from entering. Our records.... our sins rise like clouds into heaven, and these must be cleared. Any thought of our sins in heaven must be removed.

votivesoul 05-25-2015 10:23 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
There was a great falling away in heaven with satan's rebellion and sinful sowing of discord among the angels. Perhaps Christ's atonement purified heaven of this?

mfblume 05-25-2015 10:48 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
The kicker is that Hebrews compared the cleanings of heaven with the cleansing of the tabernacle that the service was accomplished in for Israel. So I think it has to do with people involved in the atonement.

Andrew Murray wrote one of the best books I ever read when he wrote on the Book of Hebrews. THE HOLIEST OF ALL. He has some great thoughts on this. Will get some more.

mfblume 05-25-2015 11:03 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
By Andrew Murray.
LXXIII.

HEAVEN ITSELF CLEANSED BY THE BLOOD.

IX.—23. It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things In the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24. For Christ entered not Into a holy place made with hands, like In pattern to the true; but Into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us.

In the previous verses we saw how, at the dedication of the first covenant with blood, both the book and the people and, later on, the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry, were sprinkled with blood. Even so, the writer tells us, the bloodshedding on earth was not enough, but there was a needs-be that the heavenly things themselves be cleansed with the blood of the better sacrifice, ere heaven could be opened to us, and we obtain access to a life in the presence of God. There must not a vestige or sign of sin be left there, to rise up against us. Such is the power of this better sacrifice and its blood, that the heavenly things themselves were cleansed by it, and that Christ our surety with His own blood, entered into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us. The heavenly things themselves cleansed, and Christ entered into heaven itself for us,—these are the two aspects of the eternal redemption here put before us.

The heavenly things themselves cleansed. What can this mean? We speak of the heavens being dark, black with clouds. The light of the sun is there, but clouded. When the clouds are gone the heavens are bright and clear. God's word speaks of our sins rising up as a cloud, as a smoke before Him. Our sins are come up before Him, are in His presence, written in His book of remembrance, calling for vengeance. God says to lsrael: I have blotted out as a thick cloud thy transgressions, and as a cloud thy sins. Just as the tabernacle had to be sprinkled and cleansed and hallowed from all the uncleanness of the children of Israel, so the heavenly things themselves by the blood of Christ. As the blood was brought in, every vestige of a thought of sin was removed out of God's presence; the heavens were cleansed; the heavens are now clear and bright, and the love of God can shine out in noonday glory.

And this because Christ is not entered into the Holiest, made with hands, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us. This is the great consummation to which all the teaching of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and the true sanctuary, and the blood of the covenant leads up. Heaven itself is now opened up to us. Christ has entered, not simply on His own behalf, but entirely to appear before the face of God for us. Yes, for us, His entering in has obtained for us boldness to enter in. His entering in was through the rent veil; there is no veil now between God and us. We are called to draw nigh in the fulness of faith. We are taught, Ye are come to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to God. Before the face of God, in the presence of God, is now the home of the soul. Heaven is not only a locality, with its limitations, but a state of life, that condition of spiritual existence in the full enjoyment of God's love and fellowship, into which Christ entered. Christ passed through the heavens, was made higher than the heavens. He ascended far above all tlie heavens, that He might fill all things. Heaven itself, the Holiest of All, into which He entered, the presence of God, is now the sphere in which He exercises His heavenly ministry, into which He brings us in as an actual life and experience, in which we alone can truly serve the living God.

And what, we may well ask, what is the reason that so few of God's children can testify to the joy of entering in and having their abode here in the very presence of God? There can be but one answer, There is such a difference between being the heir of a promise and actually inheriting it. Each of the great words of our Epistle, as God's gift to each one of His children, has an infinitude of meaning and blessing and power in it. Christ a Priest for ever; the power of an endless life; He is able to sympathise, able to succour, able to save completely; the true sanctuary, the new covenant, the blood cleansing the heavens, cleansing the conscience,—all these are divine realities, with a power and a glory that the heart of man cannot conceive. lt is only by faith and longsuffering that we inherit the promises. It is as we give up our whole heart and life to be just one act of faith, looking up and longing, praising and expecting, believing and receiving what God gives and works in Christ, that this life in the Holiest will be ours. lt is as our faith sees the divine unity of the once for all and the for ever, that we shall be bold to believe that the for ever, the abiding continually, has in Christ been made ours once for all, and can be made ours in an entering within the veil as clear as that of Christ's. This faith will prove itself in longsuffering. First, as we diligently, perseveringly hold fast, and gaze and draw nigh and wait on God to take us within the veil; and then, as within the veil, in deepest humility and meekness and patience

and resignation to God, we wait upon Him in service, to perfect us in the work for which we were admitted into His very presence.

But remember where all this begins, and wherein it all consists. Not without blood! With His own blood! How much more shall the blood of Christ! These words are the key to

this blessed chapter of the opening of the Holiest to us. As we yield to the Holy Spirit, the Eternal Spirit, to testify to us how the way into the Holiest has been made manifest, and what the blood is by which it was done, and what the cleansing of our conscience in that blood to enter in and serve the living God, we shall in fulness of faith be bold to draw nigh and enter in and abide.

1. Think not that lt will be too difficult for thee to dwell always with thy heart up yonder in heaven. When the sun shines on thee, thou dost not think of its distance; thou rejoicest in lts warmth. lt is so near to thee; thou enterest into lt, and lt enters into thee. Even so with Jesus and the heavenly life. Heaven comes down. The kingdom of heaven is come with power; the Holy Spirit goes and maintains it in thee. The veil is rent, and the light and life of heaven is come down here where we serve in the Holy Place.

2. To open the way to heaven and to God, Jesus died to sin. We that hates and loses his life will find the way to the life of God.

3. Just as the cleansing of the tabernacle was part of the dedicating of the first covenant, so the sprinkling the heavenly sanctuary, the cleansing of the heavens with the blood of the new covenant, is our assurance that the sanctuary is open to us, and that the covenant is sure and will be fulfilled to us.

Michael The Disciple 05-26-2015 01:50 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1375318)
There was a great falling away in heaven with satan's rebellion and sinful sowing of discord among the angels. Perhaps Christ's atonement purified heaven of this?
Very few understand the huge ramifications this must have had.

Evang.Benincasa 05-26-2015 06:27 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1375319)
The kicker is that Hebrews compared the cleanings of heaven with the cleansing of the tabernacle that the service was accomplished in for Israel. So I think it has to do with people involved in the atonement.

Andrew Murray wrote one of the best books I ever read when he wrote on the Book of Hebrews. THE HOLIEST OF ALL. He has some great thoughts on this. Will get some more.
Thank you Brother Blume. :thumbsup

mfblume 06-28-2015 01:43 PM
Leviticus 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.


Type of the picture for the antitype issue.

The explanation is right there.

Esaias 06-28-2015 02:47 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
So, he had to not only fit us for entrance into the most holy place, but he had to get the most holy place fitted for us to enter in.

Now the question is when did this happen - during his time in the grave, or after his resurrection, or after his ascension?

Esaias 06-28-2015 02:50 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1375318)
There was a great falling away in heaven with satan's rebellion and sinful sowing of discord among the angels. Perhaps Christ's atonement purified heaven of this?
Where is this taught in scripture?

phareztamar 06-28-2015 03:28 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1380588)
So, he had to not only fit us for entrance into the most holy place, but he had to get the most holy place fitted for us to enter in.

Now the question is when did this happen - during his time in the grave, or after his resurrection, or after his ascension?
My input: My Lord was in the grave for three days, and seen of men 40 days. That leaves seven days to pentecost. Going back to the old testament, that seven days was the amount of time that Aaron and sons were consecrated. After that, the gift of the Holy Ghost was given...spilling out over heaven's balcony and filling an upper room in Jerusalem.

Liteweight47 06-29-2015 11:04 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1375320)
By Andrew Murray.
LXXIII.

HEAVEN ITSELF CLEANSED BY THE BLOOD.

IX.—23. It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things In the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24. For Christ entered not Into a holy place made with hands, like In pattern to the true; but Into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us.

In the previous verses we saw how, at the dedication of the first covenant with blood, both the book and the people and, later on, the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry, were sprinkled with blood. Even so, the writer tells us, the bloodshedding on earth was not enough, but there was a needs-be that the heavenly things themselves be cleansed with the blood of the better sacrifice, ere heaven could be opened to us, and we obtain access to a life in the presence of God. There must not a vestige or sign of sin be left there, to rise up against us. Such is the power of this better sacrifice and its blood, that the heavenly things themselves were cleansed by it, and that Christ our surety with His own blood, entered into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us. The heavenly things themselves cleansed, and Christ entered into heaven itself for us,—these are the two aspects of the eternal redemption here put before us.

The heavenly things themselves cleansed. What can this mean? We speak of the heavens being dark, black with clouds. The light of the sun is there, but clouded. When the clouds are gone the heavens are bright and clear. God's word speaks of our sins rising up as a cloud, as a smoke before Him. Our sins are come up before Him, are in His presence, written in His book of remembrance, calling for vengeance. God says to lsrael: I have blotted out as a thick cloud thy transgressions, and as a cloud thy sins. Just as the tabernacle had to be sprinkled and cleansed and hallowed from all the uncleanness of the children of Israel, so the heavenly things themselves by the blood of Christ. As the blood was brought in, every vestige of a thought of sin was removed out of God's presence; the heavens were cleansed; the heavens are now clear and bright, and the love of God can shine out in noonday glory.

And this because Christ is not entered into the Holiest, made with hands, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us. This is the great consummation to which all the teaching of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and the true sanctuary, and the blood of the covenant leads up. Heaven itself is now opened up to us. Christ has entered, not simply on His own behalf, but entirely to appear before the face of God for us. Yes, for us, His entering in has obtained for us boldness to enter in. His entering in was through the rent veil; there is no veil now between God and us. We are called to draw nigh in the fulness of faith. We are taught, Ye are come to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to God. Before the face of God, in the presence of God, is now the home of the soul. Heaven is not only a locality, with its limitations, but a state of life, that condition of spiritual existence in the full enjoyment of God's love and fellowship, into which Christ entered. Christ passed through the heavens, was made higher than the heavens. He ascended far above all tlie heavens, that He might fill all things. Heaven itself, the Holiest of All, into which He entered, the presence of God, is now the sphere in which He exercises His heavenly ministry, into which He brings us in as an actual life and experience, in which we alone can truly serve the living God.

And what, we may well ask, what is the reason that so few of God's children can testify to the joy of entering in and having their abode here in the very presence of God? There can be but one answer, There is such a difference between being the heir of a promise and actually inheriting it. Each of the great words of our Epistle, as God's gift to each one of His children, has an infinitude of meaning and blessing and power in it. Christ a Priest for ever; the power of an endless life; He is able to sympathise, able to succour, able to save completely; the true sanctuary, the new covenant, the blood cleansing the heavens, cleansing the conscience,—all these are divine realities, with a power and a glory that the heart of man cannot conceive. lt is only by faith and longsuffering that we inherit the promises. It is as we give up our whole heart and life to be just one act of faith, looking up and longing, praising and expecting, believing and receiving what God gives and works in Christ, that this life in the Holiest will be ours. lt is as our faith sees the divine unity of the once for all and the for ever, that we shall be bold to believe that the for ever, the abiding continually, has in Christ been made ours once for all, and can be made ours in an entering within the veil as clear as that of Christ's. This faith will prove itself in longsuffering. First, as we diligently, perseveringly hold fast, and gaze and draw nigh and wait on God to take us within the veil; and then, as within the veil, in deepest humility and meekness and patience

and resignation to God, we wait upon Him in service, to perfect us in the work for which we were admitted into His very presence.

But remember where all this begins, and wherein it all consists. Not without blood! With His own blood! How much more shall the blood of Christ! These words are the key to

this blessed chapter of the opening of the Holiest to us. As we yield to the Holy Spirit, the Eternal Spirit, to testify to us how the way into the Holiest has been made manifest, and what the blood is by which it was done, and what the cleansing of our conscience in that blood to enter in and serve the living God, we shall in fulness of faith be bold to draw nigh and enter in and abide.

1. Think not that lt will be too difficult for thee to dwell always with thy heart up yonder in heaven. When the sun shines on thee, thou dost not think of its distance; thou rejoicest in lts warmth. lt is so near to thee; thou enterest into lt, and lt enters into thee. Even so with Jesus and the heavenly life. Heaven comes down. The kingdom of heaven is come with power; the Holy Spirit goes and maintains it in thee. The veil is rent, and the light and life of heaven is come down here where we serve in the Holy Place.

2. To open the way to heaven and to God, Jesus died to sin. We that hates and loses his life will find the way to the life of God.

3. Just as the cleansing of the tabernacle was part of the dedicating of the first covenant, so the sprinkling the heavenly sanctuary, the cleansing of the heavens with the blood of the new covenant, is our assurance that the sanctuary is open to us, and that the covenant is sure and will be fulfilled to us.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, and you've gotta help me because my brain was exploding with ideas after reading this :happydance


....Christ's Atoning Blood not only cleanses us of our sins, but cleanses Heaven of OUR sins?

mfblume 06-29-2015 11:18 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liteweight47 (Post 1380854)
So if I'm understanding this correctly, and you've gotta help me because my brain was exploding with ideas after reading this :happydance


....Christ's Atoning Blood not only cleanses us of our sins, but cleanses Heaven of OUR sins?
I would say more that His blood touches heaven so our presence can be there, which is not directly cleansing heaven of our sins, but because we had sins, it had to be dealt with so it could tolerate our presence. It's hard to put into words. Sort of a confirmation to us we can enter. Our sins were not in heaven, but it is like a herald and ceremony to encourage us we can enter because our sins are gone.

votivesoul 06-29-2015 05:16 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1380589)
Where is this taught in scripture?
I'm pretty sure Revelation 12:3-9 indicates this. But I'm also guessing you anticipated that before you asked your question, so you must have a different take on Revelation 12:3-9...?

mfblume 06-29-2015 05:23 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Revelation 12 does not necessarily refer to the fall of the devil occurred before Adam.

All we know about is Jesus stated he saw satan fall like lightning from heaven. It is assumed that Isaiah's reference to Lucifer having fallen refers to that. However, it's not solidly known to be so. Many feel Lucifer was a Babylonian king.

votivesoul 06-30-2015 12:47 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 1380909)
Revelation 12 does not necessarily refer to the fall of the devil occurred before Adam.
True enough. But he was at least fallen by the time Job was around. Additionally if the serpent isn't a representation of the dragon, I don't know what is.

Quote:
All we know about is Jesus stated he saw satan fall like lightning from heaven.
And Jesus said this before His passion, indicating that Satan's fall was before the blood atoned for anything, helping to solidfy my point made earlier.

Quote:
It is assumed that Isaiah's reference to Lucifer having fallen refers to that. However, it's not solidly known to be so. Many feel Lucifer was a Babylonian king.
Just for the record, I don't make that assumption. I'm not convinced that "Lucifer" is Satan.

mfblume 06-30-2015 07:42 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1380998)
True enough. But he was at least fallen by the time Job was around. Additionally if the serpent isn't a representation of the dragon, I don't know what is.
He was definitely fallen before Adam, I believe. I'm just saying that whenever he fell, it is not necessarily the fall we read about in Revelation 12. Some believe that fall occurs when the beast (not antichrist, since nothing in Revelaiton even hints at what John described as antichrist in 1 John 4) is possessed which is long after the cross. The ONLY pleace we read any hint of one third of the angels falling with the devil is Rev 12 where one third of the stars were dragged down by his tail. But again, Rev 12 is not proved to refer to satan's initial fall. Rev 12 shows satan falling into the earth, whereas before this satan was prince of the air. That seemed to change in Rev 12.

Quote:
And Jesus said this before His passion, indicating that Satan's fall was before the blood atoned for anything, helping to solidfy my point made earlier.
I totally agree. But I am just saying Rev 12 is not necessarily THAT fall.

Quote:
Just for the record, I don't make that assumption. I'm not convinced that "Lucifer" is Satan.
I lean toward the thought that it is satan, but it cannot be proved. The common denominator between Christ's words and Isaiah's concerning Lucifer is that both fell from heaven. It could even be that Lucifer was a man but was so perfectly a shadow of satan, too.

Esaias 10-02-2025 09:05 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1375200)
During today's bible discussion a point was brought up. Our Lord fulfilled not only the Christological typology of Passover, but of Atonement as well. But here's the thing:

Hebrews says the old covenant ceremonies were types of heavenly realities. On the day of Atonement the high priest went into the most holy place and made an atonement, not only for the people, but for the sanctuary itself. Hebrews says the earthly tabernacle and furniture were patterns of the heavenly things. The patterns were purified with animal blood, but the heavenly things with Christ's blood.

So... does this not say that the heavens themselves were purified? It seems strange to think of heaven requiring purification and sanctification, but that is plainly what is said, is it not?

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Thoughts?
The Day of Atonement is referred to in the Hebrew in Leviticus as literally "day of the atonements" (plural). Yom haKippurim.

There were three things atoned for on that day:

1. The high priest and his house. (The priest had to be clean in order to clean things up, obviously).

2. The sanctuary and its furniture.

3. The people/nation.

All through the year, the people brought their various sin offerings and tresspass offerings. The animals were slain, their blood poured out at the altar, and their bodies burnt on the altar. This caused a ritual pollution of the sanctuary:
Leviticus 16:16 KJV
And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Leviticus 16:18-20 KJV
And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. [19] And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. [20] And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Once the sanctuary and its furniture had been cleansed and "covered" (atoned, reconciled), then the live goat (the scapegoat) was brought forth, the sins of the people were placed upon it, and it was sent away never to be seen again.

A sin offering was made for the people, the sanctuary was then cleansed, and then the scapegoat bore the sins of the people away.

So all through the year the sins of the people were brought into the sanctuary so to speak, and their blood was deposited at the altar. So the sanctuary served as an accumulation point if you will for the sins of the people. A spiritual "septic tank" if you will. And just like a regular septic tank must be emptied periodically, the sanctuary had to be "emptied" of its pollutions (the sins of the people) periodically (once every year).

Obviously, this could never actually take away sins, as Hebrews tells us. Jesus was the one-and-done sacrifice for sins, and actually takes away our sins (not just the guilt, but the tresspassing as well) so that we can now serve the living God from the heart. As the scapegoat was sent off never to be seen again, Jesus takes our sins and removes them from us as far as the east is from the west (ie infinitely).

Now, the earthly sanctuary was a pattern, a physical mock-up of a spiritual reality, an earthly representation of heaven (the throne room/sanctuary of God). The earthly sanctuary was ritually unclean because all the sins of the people were being ritually deposited there throughout the year. The true sanctuary (the dwelling place of God) was also defiled (in a sense) by the actual sins of the people, but Christ removed all that once and for all.

What is the dwelling place or sanctuary or temple of God? We may point up to the firmament and say it some "place" on the other side of it, but is it not also true that His temple, His sanctuary, His dwelling place was always intended to be HIS PEOPLE? Is this not where things end up at the end of the Revelation? The Tabernacle was surrounded by the camps of the tribes of Israel. And the banners of the four main camps (one on each side) correspond to the four cherubim or four living creatures of both Ezekiel and Revelation. Thus, the sanctuary represents the presence of God in the midst of His people, so that heaven is essentially God and His people. We see a distinction between earth and heaven, but in the end the two will be juxtaposed and merged so that there is no difference. Heaven and earth will be one thing, and God and His people will be the ones living there, TOGETHER. The Christian walk is a picture in miniature of this truth - we have the divine heavenly Spirit of God in these "earthen vessels of clay". In Christ, the divine and human are joined in One, God and Man in one person. This is the entire PLAN of God from the beginning - the manifestation of God in the flesh, the union of human and divine, heaven-on-earth, etc.

So the heavenly sanctuary must needs be cleansed because of the sins of His people, in order for Him to dwell with them in their midst. And this cleansing was done in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. His mission was to prepare the sanctuary -
John 14:1-4 KJV
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. [4] And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
What is the Father's "house"? The temple, for a temple is the "house" of a god, and the true God has His Temple. There are many "mansions" (dwelling places, abodes) in the true Temple of God. Jesus was going to prepare a place (a dwelling place) for His disciples in the Temple:
Revelation 3:12 KJV
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The church is the temple of the living God. The church is the people of God, the holy nation, the Israel of God, the desired dwelling place of God, ZION:
Psalm 76:1-2 KJV
In Judah is God known: his name is great in Israel. [2] In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
As to whether or not it is still ongoing, consider this:
Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: [25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; [26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The high priest went into the sanctuary, and then came out when it was all done. Chrisrt has gone into the heavenly sanctuary, but has not yet appeared or "come out" yet. Thus, the cleansing is ongoing. Why? Because the temple is not completed, the church is still having people added to it, and total number of the elect who are to have their sins fully removed has not yet come in. So the current time period is one of Atonement, that is, Christ still removes sin, still removes guilt, still prepares a place for YOU in His holy tabernacle.

Once Atonement has been completed, Tabernacles is next on the calendar:
Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
So, did the blood of Christ actually drip on to the physical mercy seat? I would say NO, because that would violate the very pattern established by Scripture, in that the earthly mercy seat was just a man-made representation of the thing that Jesus' blood was intended to purify. Animal blood for the earthly sanctuary, Christ's blood for the heavenly sanctuary. To put Jesus' blood on the earthly sanctuary as an atonement would be not much different that putting goat blood on the heavenly sanctuary as an atonement. In other words, not only unnecessary, but backwards.

jediwill83 10-04-2025 05:22 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1620620)
The Day of Atonement is referred to in the Hebrew in Leviticus as literally "day of the atonements" (plural). Yom haKippurim.

There were three things atoned for on that day:

1. The high priest and his house. (The priest had to be clean in order to clean things up, obviously).

2. The sanctuary and its furniture.

3. The people/nation.

All through the year, the people brought their various sin offerings and tresspass offerings. The animals were slain, their blood poured out at the altar, and their bodies burnt on the altar. This caused a ritual pollution of the sanctuary:
Leviticus 16:16 KJV
And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Leviticus 16:18-20 KJV
And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. [19] And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. [20] And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Once the sanctuary and its furniture had been cleansed and "covered" (atoned, reconciled), then the live goat (the scapegoat) was brought forth, the sins of the people were placed upon it, and it was sent away never to be seen again.

A sin offering was made for the people, the sanctuary was then cleansed, and then the scapegoat bore the sins of the people away.

So all through the year the sins of the people were brought into the sanctuary so to speak, and their blood was deposited at the altar. So the sanctuary served as an accumulation point if you will for the sins of the people. A spiritual "septic tank" if you will. And just like a regular septic tank must be emptied periodically, the sanctuary had to be "emptied" of its pollutions (the sins of the people) periodically (once every year).

Obviously, this could never actually take away sins, as Hebrews tells us. Jesus was the one-and-done sacrifice for sins, and actually takes away our sins (not just the guilt, but the tresspassing as well) so that we can now serve the living God from the heart. As the scapegoat was sent off never to be seen again, Jesus takes our sins and removes them from us as far as the east is from the west (ie infinitely).

Now, the earthly sanctuary was a pattern, a physical mock-up of a spiritual reality, an earthly representation of heaven (the throne room/sanctuary of God). The earthly sanctuary was ritually unclean because all the sins of the people were being ritually deposited there throughout the year. The true sanctuary (the dwelling place of God) was also defiled (in a sense) by the actual sins of the people, but Christ removed all that once and for all.

What is the dwelling place or sanctuary or temple of God? We may point up to the firmament and say it some "place" on the other side of it, but is it not also true that His temple, His sanctuary, His dwelling place was always intended to be HIS PEOPLE? Is this not where things end up at the end of the Revelation? The Tabernacle was surrounded by the camps of the tribes of Israel. And the banners of the four main camps (one on each side) correspond to the four cherubim or four living creatures of both Ezekiel and Revelation. Thus, the sanctuary represents the presence of God in the midst of His people, so that heaven is essentially God and His people. We see a distinction between earth and heaven, but in the end the two will be juxtaposed and merged so that there is no difference. Heaven and earth will be one thing, and God and His people will be the ones living there, TOGETHER. The Christian walk is a picture in miniature of this truth - we have the divine heavenly Spirit of God in these "earthen vessels of clay". In Christ, the divine and human are joined in One, God and Man in one person. This is the entire PLAN of God from the beginning - the manifestation of God in the flesh, the union of human and divine, heaven-on-earth, etc.

So the heavenly sanctuary must needs be cleansed because of the sins of His people, in order for Him to dwell with them in their midst. And this cleansing was done in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. His mission was to prepare the sanctuary -
John 14:1-4 KJV
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. [4] And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
What is the Father's "house"? The temple, for a temple is the "house" of a god, and the true God has His Temple. There are many "mansions" (dwelling places, abodes) in the true Temple of God. Jesus was going to prepare a place (a dwelling place) for His disciples in the Temple:
Revelation 3:12 KJV
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The church is the temple of the living God. The church is the people of God, the holy nation, the Israel of God, the desired dwelling place of God, ZION:
Psalm 76:1-2 KJV
In Judah is God known: his name is great in Israel. [2] In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
As to whether or not it is still ongoing, consider this:
Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: [25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; [26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The high priest went into the sanctuary, and then came out when it was all done. Chrisrt has gone into the heavenly sanctuary, but has not yet appeared or "come out" yet. Thus, the cleansing is ongoing. Why? Because the temple is not completed, the church is still having people added to it, and total number of the elect who are to have their sins fully removed has not yet come in. So the current time period is one of Atonement, that is, Christ still removes sin, still removes guilt, still prepares a place for YOU in His holy tabernacle.

Once Atonement has been completed, Tabernacles is next on the calendar:
Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
So, did the blood of Christ actually drip on to the physical mercy seat? I would say NO, because that would violate the very pattern established by Scripture, in that the earthly mercy seat was just a man-made representation of the thing that Jesus' blood was intended to purify. Animal blood for the earthly sanctuary, Christ's blood for the heavenly sanctuary. To put Jesus' blood on the earthly sanctuary as an atonement would be not much different that putting goat blood on the heavenly sanctuary as an atonement. In other words, not only unnecessary, but backwards.

Some folks think they can put the blame on a chicken and if they dont have that, they can wave a $20 around their heads and it works just fine.

Way to diminish the value of His sacrifice...

Evang.Benincasa 11-28-2025 12:42 PM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1620620)
The Day of Atonement is referred to in the Hebrew in Leviticus as literally "day of the atonements" (plural). Yom haKippurim.

There were three things atoned for on that day:

1. The high priest and his house. (The priest had to be clean in order to clean things up, obviously).

2. The sanctuary and its furniture.

3. The people/nation.

All through the year, the people brought their various sin offerings and tresspass offerings. The animals were slain, their blood poured out at the altar, and their bodies burnt on the altar. This caused a ritual pollution of the sanctuary:
Leviticus 16:16 KJV
And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Leviticus 16:18-20 KJV
And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. [19] And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. [20] And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Once the sanctuary and its furniture had been cleansed and "covered" (atoned, reconciled), then the live goat (the scapegoat) was brought forth, the sins of the people were placed upon it, and it was sent away never to be seen again.

A sin offering was made for the people, the sanctuary was then cleansed, and then the scapegoat bore the sins of the people away.

So all through the year the sins of the people were brought into the sanctuary so to speak, and their blood was deposited at the altar. So the sanctuary served as an accumulation point if you will for the sins of the people. A spiritual "septic tank" if you will. And just like a regular septic tank must be emptied periodically, the sanctuary had to be "emptied" of its pollutions (the sins of the people) periodically (once every year).

Obviously, this could never actually take away sins, as Hebrews tells us. Jesus was the one-and-done sacrifice for sins, and actually takes away our sins (not just the guilt, but the tresspassing as well) so that we can now serve the living God from the heart. As the scapegoat was sent off never to be seen again, Jesus takes our sins and removes them from us as far as the east is from the west (ie infinitely).

Now, the earthly sanctuary was a pattern, a physical mock-up of a spiritual reality, an earthly representation of heaven (the throne room/sanctuary of God). The earthly sanctuary was ritually unclean because all the sins of the people were being ritually deposited there throughout the year. The true sanctuary (the dwelling place of God) was also defiled (in a sense) by the actual sins of the people, but Christ removed all that once and for all.

What is the dwelling place or sanctuary or temple of God? We may point up to the firmament and say it some "place" on the other side of it, but is it not also true that His temple, His sanctuary, His dwelling place was always intended to be HIS PEOPLE? Is this not where things end up at the end of the Revelation? The Tabernacle was surrounded by the camps of the tribes of Israel. And the banners of the four main camps (one on each side) correspond to the four cherubim or four living creatures of both Ezekiel and Revelation. Thus, the sanctuary represents the presence of God in the midst of His people, so that heaven is essentially God and His people. We see a distinction between earth and heaven, but in the end the two will be juxtaposed and merged so that there is no difference. Heaven and earth will be one thing, and God and His people will be the ones living there, TOGETHER. The Christian walk is a picture in miniature of this truth - we have the divine heavenly Spirit of God in these "earthen vessels of clay". In Christ, the divine and human are joined in One, God and Man in one person. This is the entire PLAN of God from the beginning - the manifestation of God in the flesh, the union of human and divine, heaven-on-earth, etc.

So the heavenly sanctuary must needs be cleansed because of the sins of His people, in order for Him to dwell with them in their midst. And this cleansing was done in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. His mission was to prepare the sanctuary -
John 14:1-4 KJV
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. [4] And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
What is the Father's "house"? The temple, for a temple is the "house" of a god, and the true God has His Temple. There are many "mansions" (dwelling places, abodes) in the true Temple of God. Jesus was going to prepare a place (a dwelling place) for His disciples in the Temple:
Revelation 3:12 KJV
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The church is the temple of the living God. The church is the people of God, the holy nation, the Israel of God, the desired dwelling place of God, ZION:
Psalm 76:1-2 KJV
In Judah is God known: his name is great in Israel. [2] In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

Hebrews 12:22-24 KJV
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
As to whether or not it is still ongoing, consider this:
Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: [25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; [26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The high priest went into the sanctuary, and then came out when it was all done. Chrisrt has gone into the heavenly sanctuary, but has not yet appeared or "come out" yet. Thus, the cleansing is ongoing. Why? Because the temple is not completed, the church is still having people added to it, and total number of the elect who are to have their sins fully removed has not yet come in. So the current time period is one of Atonement, that is, Christ still removes sin, still removes guilt, still prepares a place for YOU in His holy tabernacle.

Once Atonement has been completed, Tabernacles is next on the calendar:
Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
So, did the blood of Christ actually drip on to the physical mercy seat? I would say NO, because that would violate the very pattern established by Scripture, in that the earthly mercy seat was just a man-made representation of the thing that Jesus' blood was intended to purify. Animal blood for the earthly sanctuary, Christ's blood for the heavenly sanctuary. To put Jesus' blood on the earthly sanctuary as an atonement would be not much different that putting goat blood on the heavenly sanctuary as an atonement. In other words, not only unnecessary, but backwards.
:highfive

Amanah 11-29-2025 11:05 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
I saw Tom Bradford teach on this recently:

The symbols of the 4 leader tribes around the tabernacle in the wilderness are fascinating. The tribes were:
- Judah (Lion) - Genesis 49:9-10, Revelation 4:7
- Ephraim (Ox/Bull) - Deuteronomy 33:17, Numbers 2:18-24
- Dan (Eagle) - Genesis 49:16-17, Numbers 2:25-31
- Reuben (Man) - Genesis 49:3-4, Numbers 2:10-16

These symbols correspond to the creatures in Ezekiel 1:10 and Revelation 4:7, often associated with the Cherubim:
- Lion - represents strength and royalty
- Ox/Bull - represents service and strength
- Eagle - represents swiftness and vision
- Man - represents humanity and intelligence

Other relevant scriptures:
- Numbers 2:1-34 (tribal arrangements)

donfriesen1 01-07-2026 07:53 AM
Re: Christ and the Atonement
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1375200)
During today's bible discussion a point was brought up. Our Lord fulfilled not only the Christological typology of Passover, but of Atonement as well. But here's the thing:

Hebrews says the old covenant ceremonies were types of heavenly realities. On the day of Atonement the high priest went into the most holy place and made an atonement, not only for the people, but for the sanctuary itself. Hebrews says the earthly tabernacle and furniture were patterns of the heavenly things. The patterns were purified with animal blood, but the heavenly things with Christ's blood.

So... does this not say that the heavens themselves were purified? It seems strange to think of heaven requiring purification and sanctification, but that is plainly what is said, is it not?

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Thoughts?
Do we have to take everything literally?

I believe I'm covered by the Blood but have not seen this Blood with my eyes. I believe my sins are washed away but not literally, because sin is not a physical thing, but real nonetheless.

The OT sacrifices were literal and real with the blood carried by actual basins. There was no receptacle at the Cross to catch the Blood with which to carry it to Heaven.

It is not speaking literally when saying he entered the heavenlies with his Blood, but the Blood was effective regardless.


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