Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

We may have discussed this already.

Someone was sharing with me a person of another faith asking her this question, "If heaven is perfection, why was Lucifer there?"

I didn't have an answer, because I don't know.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Where does the bible say that Heaven "is" perfection...

IF heaven "is" how exactly does that relate to what "was"

Further, Jesus said "I go to prepare a place..." the indication is that at that point...just 2k years ago, that place was not in fact made.

We also know that the NT speaks of a "New Heaven and a New Earth" neither of which existed before God said "let there be light"....

just my random thoughts on the subject. but my initial reaction is that the questioner is under a false impression of what the bible says about heaven to begin with.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Thanks. That is what I told her, in the bold, but I wasn't sure I was right.

I read somewhere that the incident with Lucifer was the actual beginning of sin on the earth, not what happened in the Garden of Eden.

Actually, I am just remembering, the question was that if Lucifer was an angel, and angels are perfect, why was Lucifer in heaven. So, the real question was about angels in heaven that were sinners.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

The person, making the comments, was coming from the point of view that there were other worlds and that is probably where Lucifer lived. I told her the person didn't have evidence to support their view, even though being adamant about it.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Isaiah 14:4

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

So, God uses real life events to teach a spiritual reality of something that will also take place?

For instance, The King of Babylon is a chief representative of oppressive human power, which could also represent Lucifer.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Lucifer is a created being, an Angel of the highest order of which there are three, (that we know of) Michael, Gabriel, & Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:12:16 states he was in Heaven in the presence of God!
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Ezekiel 28:14-16 states that Lucifer was perfect (sinless) until the day that iniquity (sin) was found in him.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

He also gains access to Heaven as an accuser of the brethren before God as evidenced in Job 1.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

What I find most intriguing is this statement, "For thou hast said in thine heart"
It gives new meaning to Jesus words, "as a man (or by inference woman) thinks in their heart, so is he (she)!

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

What is Babylon?

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Capital of the Neo-Babylon Empire.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

[QUOTE=Ron;1383138]Lucifer is a created being, an Angel of the highest order of which there are three, (that we know of) Michael, Gabriel, & Lucifer.

You got all that from Isaiah and Ezekiel?

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Yes it was, and so much more. Babylon is a physical place tis true, but it is also a system that, I believe anyways, was started back in Genesis & the forerunner of Babylon--NIMROD.
His system was a system in which God is not in the equation & it is a system in which people feel that they do not need God!
They shake their fist at God & I believe it is our present day carnal world!
Read the book, "Intoxicated With Babylon!" In it Steve Gallagher puts forth a strong, compelling argument about in which this world is governed by & Babylon
& by it's king, Lucifer!

The Jews that went into captivity in Babylon, brought back a lot of the customs & symbols, including the star of David.
The true symbol of Israel should be the Menorah, or Candlestick whi9ch represents Jesus as the light of the world!:thumbsup

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1383144]You got scripture that paints a different view?

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

That's interesting.

When I have time, I have to share with you what God did for me at my mother's funeral last week. Only God could have pulled that off. I'll shoot you a PM in the next couple of days.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I'm not choosing one side or the other, but the burden of proof lies not with the one that questions the claim, but rather the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I am glad that God was with you & your family!
My thoughts & prayers continue to go out to you!

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Since the word Lucifer is from the Vulgate, and the Isaiah passage may have nothing to do with heaven or angelic beings, we need to rethink the original question.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

:nod

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

:highfive

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Heaven isn't perfection. Heaven is God's home.

Lucifer was there because God allowed him to be

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Is that a joke?

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

A Rhetorical question.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I do not have no burden of proof either way, the Bible does not delve into too much about the Angelic hosts.
On what I posted it is not a Salvation issue to me, Acts 2:38 is, I asked Bro Bennicasa if he has something better, I am open!

I do not debate just for the sake of debating, not healthy, nor does it edify!
Bro Bennicasa knows what I believe & he knows, or should know that I hold no ill will towards him, and if he has something else to add--I am all ears.

Bowas, forgive me if I am wrong here, but methinks you take this forum a little too seriously then you should!
I have nothing to prove, those who believe me, will do so, those who do not, will do so as well.
I will sleep well tonight.

I am off to take the kids to youth night & then my wife & I will be taking a new saint out for coffee & fellowship at Tim Horton's!
Glory to God!:thumbsup

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I'm just asking how lucifer means angel? Where is the word lucifer used for an angel of the highest order? How is the word lucifer found among a three angel line up? Consisting of Michael, Gabriel, & an angel NAMED lucifer? Also does anyone know where the "word" lucifer is found in any other place in the Bible? I love you Ron, and I'm just asking you a question for the statements you made in a post. Bowas is merely stating that since you had all that other information you would also know the origins. The two places in Ezekiel and Isaiah are taught as if it were speaking of the fall of Satan, but it isn't specifically pointing that out other than Ezekiel brings up a covering cherub actually means a place Kerub Ezra 2:59, Neh. 7:61, which Ezekiel is calling the King of Tyre the guardian of Kerub, not covering Cherubim, like the six winged angels in the beginning of Ezekiel. Now, this is debatable, but in context we see that in Ezekiel 28:5 the King of Tyre made himself wealthy through commerce, and it was this commerce which causes him to be seated in the midst of the seas Ezekiel 28:2. This is a clear indicator of how powerful he was in commerce. He made himself wealthy. Ezekiel 28:7 God through the prophet warns the King of Tyre that he will bring nations against him, this isn't speaking of the fall of an angel from heaven. The King of Tyre is being foretold his death by approaching armies slain in the middle of his place of commerce Ezekiel 28:8. The prophet now tells the king that even when he is being assassinated he will tell his assassins that he is GOD, yet dying proving he is just a man Ezekiel 28:9-10. Ezekiel 28:11-15 describes the King of Tyre as being the the most wealthiest, and knowledgeable (in commerce of trade) then any other king. Yet in Ezekiel 28:16 we find that the king falls because his wealth corrupted him, and therefore God rejects him. Ezekiel 28:17-18 explains that because of his commerce, trafficking, wealth through trade he blows off God, and therefore he is made an example to other KINGS. Ezekiel 28:19 finishes it all off by saying how God destroys the king before all people rubbed out for all ages. Again, specifically speaking of a king, not an angel. Still even if we say the word cherub means a six winged four faced creature, the king is being called the guardian cherub of Eden. That's not the devil folks that's the one with the flaming sword.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I believe I have been taught that this passage in Luke is referring to the Ezekiel account regarding Lucifer.

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I never really looked at that closely until today, and I thought this was interesting what Barnes wrote, which means you need to read the previous verse:

Luke 10:17 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I totally understand I was told the same thing. Yet, the events actually have nothing to do with each other. Look at the context of what is going on that Jesus makes His statement.

Jesus is replying to the statement the 70 make in Luke 10:17. The 70 return proclaiming there authority (the Greek word is used in a military sense) over demons. Jesus' comment is a reply to what they were doing. Jesus then goes on to say that He saw Satan fall from heaven as lighting a position of spiritual authority. The scripture does say that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, also heavenly realms are the places where all power lays Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:6, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 6:12. Therefore Jesus replies to the 70 that He has seen the adversary fall from this place of authority and power. Remember when Jesus and Satan have their discussion in Luke 4:6 Satan tells Jesus that Satan would give the glory of all the kingdoms and authority over those kingdoms, because they were Satan's to give to anyone he wanted to give them. Satan had the authority, but Jesus wasn't going to compromise and bow to Satan to obtain the authority. Jesus tells His disciples that you must first bind the strong man Matthew 12:29, and Mark 3:27. Therefore Satan would be bound, and his authority taken from him.

Jesus replies to His 70 disciples concerning Satan falling as lighting from heaven, and goes right into His comment found in Luke 10:19 stating that the power of authority had been given to them, therefore they rule and command.

The king of Babylon is called the first light which brings the dawn, he was the head of gold Daniel 2:38. The king of Babylon's golden city cease Isaiah 14:4. The king of Babylon was seen as a great tree which reached to heaven so high all the earth could view the greatness Daniel 4:11. Yet, what are we seeing that is the same is where it speaks of rulership authority, not a fall of a arch demon, an angel gone bad and shaking his fist at God because he wouldn't bow to God's creation...man.

The dragon with his tail drag a third of the angels Revelation 12:4, a war is in heaven Revelation 12:7, yet we are told these aren't literal, but are symbolic a σημεῖον translated in English as sign or in the KJV as wonder. Again, all this is speaking of a transference of authority. Satan and his corrupt ministers as 2 Corinthians 11:14-15, and the defender of Israel with his true ministers Daniel 12:1, with his righteous ministers. While the scriptures do speak of falls from authority, they aren't speaking about an angel who fell from grace IMHO.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I think Barnes is guilty of the same error many make when trying to interpret the "sayings" of our Lord, and that is they fail to first make the critical distinction of determining who is speaking; the Spirit or the "man" Christ Jesus.

Clearly, in this incident it had to be the Spirit, who is eternal and not restrained by the limitations of time that is speaking through the Son, for He is able to "...calleth those things which be not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

We read in Revelation 12:7-12 of a future "war in heaven," at which time that "great dragon was cast out" (who is Satan), and seeing that Christ Jesus, the man, had not yet been "glorified" when He uttered the words of Luke 10:18, then He could NOT have been speaking of an event which He had witnessed, for it had NOT yet taken place, and as a "man" Christ Jesus, at the time He uttered this statement, was still a mortal human being with the same restrictions as you and I.

Barnes' commentary sounds plausible, however, in my opinion it is "carnal-minded speculation."

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Lucifer wasn't a name. It's a latin word for "bright Star"

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

:nod

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Deja vu!

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

:scoregood

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Why is he always calling people carnal?

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

What was the origin and purpose of God creating satan? Was he created evil?
If not, when did that change?

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

We know satan fell from heaven. In past tense, according to Jesus, which means before Jesus said that. He saw it happen. We can work from there.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

Thanks, this is want I wanted so that I could study more about it. I printed it out and will look closer.

I want to go back to what Barnes said and what I read in Luke 10:17-19.

What you wrote in your second paragraph would be true! When I read the passage, I was interpreting it as: "Look what happened to us because we evoked your name! Jesus replies, 'Yes, and as fast as lightening, I saw Satan fall, and you have that same power to bring down any stronghold where you minister the Gospel."

So, aside from looking at what he meant in Luke 10:18, it's a pretty powerful passage and I think that we don't take advantage of that power given to us. I think we go about our daily lives not realizing that everywhere we go - we are the Kingdom of God.

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

I would have liked to have heard more from you on this subject. :thumbsup

Re: Why was Lucifer in heaven?
 

BDB: לֵל Isaiah 14:12 see below הלל.

הִים see הוּם.

הֵילֵל noun masculine appellative shining one, epithet of king of Babylon, בֶּןשָֿׁ֑חַר ׳אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם ה Isaiah 14:12 how art thou fallen, shinning one, son of dawn ! i.e. star of the morning. (compare Assyrian muštilil, epithet of (Venus a) morning-star III R Isaiah 57:60 OppJAS 1871, 448 SchrSK 1874, 337 COTad. loc.)