Once Saved Always Saved
 

Our single widowed neighbor, who is a staunch Baptist, had a discussion with us where she said she believes in once saved always saved. We had a discussion about how we view it. She did not really have any scripture to back up her position, but said she was going home to study it, and present it to us at a later time.

What is the best way to refute this doctrine?

We took her to Revelation where Jesus was speaking to the churches, and it was quite obvious that they were believers, and yet he was rebuking them strongly, and if they didn't repent, he would "spue them out of his mouth". Her response to this was that they were never believers in the first place for this to happen. This is the card they play to get out of the concept of not being once saved always saved.

Any scriptures, pointers or ideas/concepts in which it can be discussed with her that we can't just live recklessly after our faith in Jesus, and still expect to be saved? She is not doing that of course - she loves the Lord dearly, and I believe the Lord has led her to come into our path to lead her to more truth. I just want to handle this carefully. She has been coming to our home group meetings, and she has expressed how wonderful it is to gather like this, and feel the sweet spirit of the Lord in our meetings. We believe the Lord wants to lead her on to greater truth.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

God wills that one be lost or perish. That shuts the whole thing down right there. If He wills none perish, then there is no such thing as Him willing only certain ones to be saved. OSAS believes God chooses not to save everyone, but only some ,and he chooses the rest to go to hell. They hate putting it that way, but that's what OSAS essentially is saying.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

amen, and what God wills gets accomplished. But i would counsel against trying to "prove" either side of this argument, and instead see that there is support for both sides, and coming to a better understanding of a mystery should be paramount.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Ok thanks, Bro. MF. So, just to recap - essentially the Calvinist idea behind OSAS is that God determines who will be saved or lost, and if you are saved, you will be saved regardless of how you live, because God has determined you will be saved or go to hell.

But then the verse in Peter refutes that, because it says that God wills that none should perish, but all come to repentance.

This scripture speaks pretty solidly that one can lose their salvation, I think.

Heb. 10:26 "For if we sin wilfuly after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Right, that is exactly what I want to avoid. I just want to show her the other side of the argument, which I don't think she has ever considered.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

In the case of Esau, Pharaoh, and Judas... it does seem that God used their existence to bring about a greater good... so... was it God's will for those three to come to repentance, or was their existence and evil works allowed without repentance, to bring about His greater purpose?

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Hebrews 6:4-8 utterly refutes OSAS.

Romans 11:20-21 does likewise.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Not all Baptists who believe OSAS are Calvinists. Many just simply believe once you get saved you cannot afterwards be lost regardless of what you do. Calvinists would reject such a notion.

Heb 10:26 is speaking about under the Mosaic economy presumptuous sin had no offering to take care of it. And there is no additional offering for us either if we sin presumptuously. But if we press it to mean once saved and you voluntarily sin you face judgment, then we are in effect saying nobody will be saved, for who can say they NEVER ONCE SINNED after becoming a Christian?

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

That is not what OSAS believe but those that believe in predestation.

I have most of mine and my husbands family are Baptist
And they are adament about it.

God told Moses He would blot out the names He would blot out. (Paraphrased)

This tells me you can't be OSAS.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

I personally would not chose to focus on her OSAS doctrine but instead to give her a more clear understanding of the New Birth experience. If she can get a revelation of Acts 2:38 then I would say her OSAS persuasion will not be much of an issue.

The Baptists borrow OSAS (or the perseverance of the saints) from Calvinism, while rejecting the other 4 points. If she becomes ardent in defending the OSAS doctrine you might show her its roots. Then, the scriptures against it are irrefutable. One excellent verse is I Cor. 6:9.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

there are certainly also Scriptures that seem to be for OSAS, so you might contemplate those...

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Ananias and Saphira.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

There is not one scripture that actually teaches OSAS. Any supposed proof texts, if taken to support OSAS, contradict vast swaths of scripture. Yet, every single supposed proof text for OSAS, when examined as to what is actually stated, is seen NOT to support OSAS.

Ezekiel ch 18:24-26 is a clear, unambiguous declaration that OSAS is a false doctrine. If OSAS is true, the prophet was a liar. If the prophet is correct, then OSAS cannot possibly be true, AT ALL.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

We don't always agree politically, (:heeheehee ) but I do agree with you here! :thumbsup

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

I'm not disagreeing, but i am saying pull them out now, in order to answer later.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

For instance, this guy makes some good points, that Mike might have issue with:
"If 'once saved, always saved' is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works."

http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm

and it prolly contains most of the Baptist arguments.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

If we are justified by faith only, then by necessity nobody is condemned because of their sins. So, sin is irrelevant, in all cases whatsoever. Nobody needs to worry about sinning, whether they are Christians or not. Woo-hoo! All those people being judged 'according to their works' can notify God on Judgment Day that since we are justified by faith only, He needn't bother opening up those books...

Note: The bible explicitly states 'a man is not justified by faith only.'

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Well, we'll have to work on that political business... :icecream

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Good luck! :heeheehee

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Luck is for heathens. I am praying for you, though!:dogpat

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith fail not. I think our definition of faith is often the problem. If faith is just being cognitive of Christ then it wouldn't make sense, but when you see faith as lifestyle system it makes sense. I as a Christian have doubted things in regards to Jesus, but my faith did not cease. I continued in what I believed even when my mind would sometimes be in and out. James that faith without works is dead.

Simply put, you can leave the faith. That does not mean that you quit believing in his existence. People leave the faith(walk) they have with him. Abraham's faith in God led to a covenant relationship and that is still key to our salvation. PS I don't think any of us can judge someone to hell. We can only point to Biblical truth that we have found and warn of the real consequences.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

yup! Unfortunately, it also states explicitly that he is! :lol
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith."

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

i would put it with your eschatology, and bet that your ice cream survives longer in the fire, lol.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Esau never served his brother when we read the elder shall serve the younger. It's Esau's descendants as a nation. And pharaoh was dealt with as leader of. A nation to affect the nation alone.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Osas and predestination go hand in hand, though.

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Actually, it never says a man is justified by faith ONLY. But you should have known that.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Interesting thought.

This comes to me when I think of someone leaving the faith....

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Leaving the original doctrines and experience, is what I view as leaving the faith.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

I address OSAS and other related views here, if anyone cares to read:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...redestination/

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Thanks for all of your input! I had a busy day today, and will try to get back tomorrow and respond to the posts. :)

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Reading down through the post, I realize that everyone responded with there own view of what they believe OSAS means. If we have not learned anything else on AFF, we should have learned we cannot put someone into a box of what we think they believe bases on a statement like "I believe in OSAS salvation".

Stop putting people into a box of preconceived perceptions, each individual is different, and most times sees things a bit different from someone else. Before blowing someone out of the water trying to convert them to something, first find out how and what they believe don't just assume you know.

Example I have discussed the trinity with many people over the course of my life. When I was younger I would assume they believed the trinity the way I had been told they believe it by my pastor. I argued from that point of view, and never really got anyone to change their view point. In later years I began to probe their beliefs and understanding, and found many of the lay people actually saw oneness, more than trinity. So I used the common ground and was able to show them into oneness the rest of the way.

With OSAS the first thing I see thrown out is "you can sin all you want because once saved you are always saved" Friends that is BS. There may be a small minority that believe they can sin and still be saved, but the vast majority believe that someone that does not live for God, was never saved in the first place.

Anyway the whole point to this long post is to ask the question, Why do you feel you must persuade this person to believe exactly the way you do? Does she not have a Christian spirit, does she not love to study the bible, has her belief caused your bible group to become confused, is her life lived as a example of Christ?
Just maybe God put her in your group because there is a middle road between the two belief he wants you to find.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

Excellent rebuttal against predestination, Aaron!

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

So the original poster should do what you did NOT do here in your post? Roger, that...

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

The teaching of osas is a very destructive teaching. To some people it may not matter because they desire to please God regardless. To others it is a false security that they have to continue in willful sin. The teaching must be corrected for the sake of all. false doctrine doesn't balance out the church. I agree we must try to enter friendly dialogue and not come out with guns blazing. Prayer should be made in advance if possible before entering such bible studies. Sometimes we can only shake the dust off of our feet and move on.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

GD,

Thanks for that post.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

I lean toward Calvinism. At this point I know more Calvinists than OP's.
I do not know one Calvinist that believes a child of God can continue to live in willful sin.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

false doctrine may not balance, but its fruit is at some point revealed, and i agree with GD that there is likely a middle ground, as evidenced by the lack of any conclusive "proof" for either side. This tells me that the question is likely irrelevant in some way, like most human questions are. If osas is deemed a license for one to sin against another, v some version of 'blessed assurance,' then this will quickly out either way; and then might be the time to shake the dust off, or not.

I've never been very comfortable with "saved" as a label, as an either/or choice, anyway. On/off. Yes/no. Life just doesn't work that way--not even spiritual life, i don't think.

I was at a baptist funeral. The preacher knew the man who passed was a drunkard. He said he wasn't sure of his relationship with God at the time of death, but he knew at an earlier point in life he gave his heart to God. So he's in heaven.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

I do understand that much like the Trinity, there can be a vast difference of what people believe in such doctrines as the Trinity, OSAS, and so on.

I am not trying to make this a hill to live or die on for our friendship and fellowship, but I just wanted to be aware of the various scriptures, and ideas that are born out of this OSAS doctrine, to be informed. She wants to discuss it, and so, I need to know. If she is open to seeing it in a different light, I would like to be prepared.

Re: Once Saved Always Saved
 

I think you've come out swinging at me GD, without fully understanding what I was asking. I have no intention to make this a fight to the bitter end with her. She wants to discuss it, and I wanted to know the various scriptures/ideas associated with it. If she is hungering for more truth, I want to be prepared. If she is closed minded about it, then I don't want her to stop coming to our meetings, because the Lord could still touch her heart. I obviously know that there is a vast difference between what the hard core Calvinists and Trinitarians believe, as opposed to the typical layman in the church.

I appreciate your input nonetheless, and agree with you completely in that this is not something to wrangle over if she is not open to seeing it in a different light.

I am writing down all the pro and con scriptures, just to have as a reference.