Love One Another and the Cross
 

Shazeep and I have been wrangling without the degree of banter that can be had with SOME people (know whom I mean?) about salvation and Acts 2:38.

I realize there's a fundamental difference between he and I concerning the cross. He says I am judging when I say those who have not obeyed Acts 2:38 are lost, when I claim I am merely repeating what the Bible teaches. WHy shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message. he says the DOCTRINE of salvation is love one another. I say, love one another -- the the degree Jesus meant it -- is not even possible without salvation FIRST. And Acts 2:38 is the door to salvation. He thinks there is another door.

So let's talk CROSS, and I will begin and ask some questions to either confirm or remove my suspicions about your doctrine.

Shazeep,

Do you believe people who have no knowledge of the cross can be saved before they ever get that knowledge? If so, why and how?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Here are some of my thoughts in the meantime.

Peter preached the gospel and the manner to apply the gospel to our lives on the first day anyone was ever baptized with the Spirit to indwell them as temples, for more than just anointing to prophesy.

First Peter explains the issue of tongues in response to the people's confusion about them.

Acts 2:13-21 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. (14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Having introduced them to his preaching by answering their confusion about tongues, he explained it was Joel's prophecy coming to pass dealing with the pouring out of God's Spirit. Then he led them to the issue of calling on the name of the Lord for salvation.

So he spoke next of salvation.

vv. 22-36..

Then the people wanted to know what to do about it.

Peter told them Acts 2:38 and said it was not for them only, but for everyone across the world (HINT HINT, Godsdrummer, ;) ).

And then we read 3000 were saved .

Now, where did he say, "Then Peter said unto them, love one another." And that was the end of it? Where did he say anything about the need to love in this chapter?

Sure, we read of it in epistles for those AFTER they're already saved by the inclusion of themselves into the cross by means of Acts 2:38. And we read Jesus saying it, whose words were explained in those epistles to those already saved. But we see NOTHING of it in the ears of the people who wanted to know what to do to be saved.

How do you answer that?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Not sure if shaz shall respond, after reading his post about thinking he'd paint me into a corner I can't get out of. lol (Quite an opinion of oneself, eh?)

But I will lay out my thought, anyway.

Shaz referred to those who say LORD LORD, as if to say my belief is useless since I know Jesus is Lord, and Jesus said many will know that but still be lost. Somehow, Sahz equates that with having no love.

Anyway, here's the truth about the LORD LORD criers.

It goes back to Matt 16. Jesus asked his disciples whom people said He was. Peter explained the truth, and Jesus said THE FATHER him that. And then Jesus said an interesting statement: "And I say ALSO unto thee.,."

In other words, he heard from the Father, but now he had to hear FROM THE SON.

And the words of the Son were more than words of His identity. The Father showed His identity! But that wasbnb't enough. The SON spoke of the cross!

Matthew 16:18-21 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Then the infamous response by Peter took place where he resisted thoughts of the cross and death, obviously thinking of his own neck, as usual. If they'd kill Jesus, what about Peter?

Matthew 16:22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then Jesus proceeded to push the CROSS again, even moreso.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Not only is the cross important and not to be rejected, but to resist it is to lose one's soul. Resisting it, like Peter was, was saving his own neck. And Jesus said you have to lose your life, let alone die with the cross, or else lose it for eternity!

This is where Matt 7's Lord, Lord criers come into play.

Jesus said many would know His identity! Many would know what Peter came to know, even by the work of the Father! You cannot know Jesus is LORD except by the Spirit.
[indent]Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So, we know a genuine miracle occurs for someone to know Jesus is Lord. the Father has to reveal it by the Spirit. Peter experienced that.

But THAT IS NOT ENOUGH! (And you thought I never knew that, shazeep. )

Jesus HAD MORE TO SAY TO PETER after Peter knew His identity by the Spirit. Jesus spoke of DOING SOMETHING. Taking up the cross and denying self.

This is precisely what Jesus continued to say in Matt 7 as well.

Matthew 7:22-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Just like Mat 16, Jesus said HIS WORDS must be heard and obeyed, as He spoke and ADDED to the Father's word. So, first his identity is learned, THEN SECONDLY the cross is explained. THAT is how you go beyond simply knowing Him as Lord and still being lost.

The DOING is obeying the WORDS OF JESUS. So, we must go beyond knowing and calling Him Lord. We must DO SOMETHING now.

And the DOING puts us on the rock. This is what ties into Mat 16. Jesus' words that HE ALSO SAID to Peter after the Father spoke to Peter would PUT HIM ON THE ROCK and the gates of hell, like the waves, wind and sea, will not prevail against the church.

And what are those WORDS WE MUST DO? THE CROSS! Take up the cross, and deny yourself.

The reason the Lord Lord criers were called workers of iniquity, was because they were not carrying their crosses, and crosses crucify that iniquity do we do not work it any more.

So, it still points to the cross!

It's not that LOVE ONE ANOTHER is not important and vital. But it does not save anyone. the cross saves. Without love all the gifts by the name of the Lord are nothing! But LOVE has a place and it certainly is not how to be saved from sin. The cross and the cross ONLY saves from sin, and one has to consciously apply the work of that cross to be saved. That's why muslims are lost, etc. Not to rehash that argument again, but to make a point in the overall discussion.

Saved by child birth is also pointing to the cross, which you denied Shaz. But to make my point, the CROSS is the middle of everything.

And as you indicated, no greater love has any man. But that means the greatest love ever known was Jesus dying for us, so that cross would be provided for us to be baptized into his death. His love was shed abroad by having made the provision for us to be saved by the cross. And you actually miss the whole point of love, if you think people can be saved without knowing anything about the cross, since the CROSS is what HIS LOVE pointed us to!

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

The Good Samaritan had no knowledge of the cross, and furthermore it can be extrapolated from the story that he would not agree with any priest trying to call him to it. Love one another IS the doctrine described in 2John1, and the passage says so in plain English, with much supporting Scripture.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Who said the good samaritan was saved, though? Without the cross no one is saved no matter how much they love. Sorry. It's not OUR GOODNESS, Shazeep.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

The children of the world, whom John said are of the world and the love of the Father is not in them, are wiser than the children of light. That is an admonition from Christ to the church to get wisdom. That does not mean the children of the world are saved. It just means we can use some wisdom they have. Same with the good Samaritan. Nothing said he was saved.

The good Samaritan is not a lesson on how to be saved. It is a lesson on how to treat neighbours after we're saved.

That's why Peter did not preach the good Samaritan for salvation, but Christ and Him crucified, followed by how to get into that salvation..

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Where throughout the entire book of Acts did the apostles preach love one another to be saved and go to heaven so your sins are remitted by good works like loving?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

well, i could bring up no law but love, and a bunch of other verses, but honestly i am just out of steam here, and anyone can do the same Bible search of love one another that i can. I suggest that you have come up with a law to get saved, and it is obviously used that way. One will be revealed by their fruit, in the end.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

You are not providing anything. Again, it's been said before, so it likely won't do anything, but it's still truth. The work of the cross is the means to get rid of sin, and aside from that sin is not removed no matter what degree of love there is. Loving one another does not save us because we're not saved by works. If you want to talk about love saving us, it's Jesus Christ's love that saved us and it was done through dying for us. No other love can save us. Not ours not anyone else's. You or I loving people does not save anyone.

Again, show me otherwise. We all know we are supposed to love one another. But that is not done in order to get saved. Show me the apostles teaching that as a plan of salvation. It's a matter of getting the cart before the horse.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

THAT is the doctrine in 1 John that saves. Christ died for us.

A commandment can be one of many... don't murder. But that doesn't save you any more than love one another saves you.

By saying LAW we inadvertently says salvation is by works. Do you agree you are preaching salvation by works, since it seems so since muslims teach salvation by works, when you say this? Is salvation by works, Shazeep?

If people love their neighbours and don't know the cross nor consciously applied it to their lives as their means of salvation, are they saved, shazeep?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

"This is the command as you have heard it from the beginning: you must walk in love."

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

But where does it say, "that you might be saved from sin"? We all know it's a command. But where does it say IT SAVES you? SAVES. There are lots of commands, but that doesn't mean they save us.

That is salvation by works. Nothing is mentioned about Jesus doing anything. That means He did not have to die and people would still be saved. Do you agree with that assessment?

Why didn't the apostles preach that instead of the cross?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Well, i would argue that they pretty much did (it was "sufficient for them"); but Scripture is written in such a way as to allow people to choose. You bring up a point here to me--that we don't really understand saved very well. We got people defending OSAS, disregarding that a part of being "saved" is to "hold out to the end." You make a decent argument against the GS being "saved," too, even if to my mind it negates the First Son, and some other supporting Scripture. But that's just my opinion, i guess.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

It's not convincing when you don't show nor quote passages to prove the case. And that cannot be blamed on bias or choice. When we don't really get what they preached, and analyze form an emotional level that surely those who don't know Christ, but love people, cannot be lost. But the bible simply does not teach that.

Again, I think the simplest solution for the question is to study the message the apostles preached in Acts. They did not tell people to love as they pitched salvation to them. They just didn't. Read the sermon in Acts 2 and see. And Paul strongly stated apart from the cross one is lost. It's written in such a way in the many overall accounts that it's really easy to see without bias and choice.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Bro Blume,
The whole notion of someone not being saved until they are baptized and that the right way is an example of attempting to get saved by works.

There are several scriptures that plainly disagree with the salvation message presented by most Apostolic church organizations. The very plain scriptures have to be twisted in order Acts 2:38 to mean the way Apostolics present it.

Then there is the way Apostolics present speaking in tongues.

The Apostolics present a works-based salvation.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Nope. How many times must we say that baptism is the furthest thing from a work that one can get. It is baptism into the death of all hopes of us earning anything. We're good for nothing except death, let alone working to save ourselves. It's death to all our hopes of saving ourselves.

I totally disagree. Show and explain how.

You are wrong as can be.

Jesus preached baptism is experienced BEFORE salvation, and Peter flatly stated it's part of salvation.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He did not say he that believes and is saved shall be baptized like you espouse.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It saves! It's part of salvation. How can you deny that after Peter flatly said it?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

The answer of a good conscience...

If you really believe, like you confess with your mouth that you believe, then you will obey the scriptures by getting baptized.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Until I experienced the cross, I didn't love anyone. So at least for me, no cross = no love, and of course, no salvation.

Right.

Otherwise it's not real belief. That makes baptism part of salvation.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

i will suggest again that those are two words that most people have only a ritualized definition for.
well that is great, but there is no denying that people have different reactions to Christ, some more religious, or ritualized, than others, and this becomes an examination of the fruit of an approach.

JD reflects a reality that can often occur, and that Scripture provides multiple warnings about. Simply denying this out of hand is to ignore a virtual cliche`. This is def not about denying the cross. More about recognizing that strong men seek to control the kingdom, and we are usually led to the cross by them.

If love one another is 9/10ths of the law and the prophets, Acts 2:38 adherents must rethink which is the cart, and which the horse.


"A new command I give you: Love one another."
"if we love one another, God lives in us"
"whoever loves others has fulfilled the law"
"For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another"
"everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"
"may the Lord teach you to love one another and all men"
"This is my commandment, that you love one another"
"Above all continue to love one another"
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love one another"
"This old commandment--to love one another--is the same message you heard before"
"Love means doing what God has commanded us, and he has commanded us to love one another, just as you heard from the beginning"

So the reality that you most likely heard Acts 2:38 from the beginning, and not this, simply becomes something else you must overcome. This does not mean that that isn't a great verse for personal application, but that if you have resistance to the first sentence in this paragraph, you have "taken a different gospel, and are not welcome."

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Shazeep, please please consider this as well, that you are overlooking something. Maybe ritualized Acts 2:38'ers turned you off. Not sure. But there is no salvation by works, which is the case if "love one another " does not follow salvation but instead causes it. There is simply no salvation by works, no matter how much you love. Just because some have ritualized Acts 2:38 does not mean it is not the beginning in the real sense it's meant to be. Just because people say it's the plan of salvation, doesn't mean they ritualize it. But again there is no way that salvation by works is possible and no one can be saved outside the work of the cross.

Acts 2:38 is the way to apply the cross to our lives, but not ritualistically. Ritualism does nothing. So when someone says Acts 2:38's the plan, it does not mean they are bypassing the application of the cross in a genuine heart experience of faith and real, living self-denial.

You simply don't seem to give a person the chance to talk about it, since you seemingly cut someone off as soon as they say things like muslims are lost,. But if the cross is the only means to God, as Jesus and the apostles said it was, then there is no salvation aside from the cross, and that is not a judgment call either. It's stating facts without prejudice.

Acts 2:38 takes the death of Christ, only when a true heart of faith gets the concept of the need for salvation, and baptizes someone into that death. And when they come to God as one who is alive from the dead, as Ro 6:13 states we should, God sees the genuine faith in a person who obviously knows they died in Christ, freeing them from the old man, fully believing that self could do nothing more than die, due to our depravity in sin. And that faith that we died is also aware that we arose with Christ. And when God sees that faith, He moves upon the person and empowers them supernaturally. I've experienced it.


But again, love one another, without the cross first, is salvation by works. And I hope you realize salvaiton by works is impossible.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

yes, salvation by works is not possible. that is doing something to get something, it doesn't work like that. But that does not mean that you will not be known by your fruit

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

I agree totally. But love one another without the cross will not save us. Salvation without works is saying we cannot love one another to be saved apart from the cross.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Good discussion here. Just wanted to say that Paul talks about love in 1 Cor. 13... and it seems that you can do a lot of things that may seem to be "good" (give your body to be burned etc.) but if one does not have love that comes through the spirit of Christ, it is all for nothing!

How do we get that kind of love? It comes only through the cross, the blood, Calvary, Acts 2:38 if you will. Acts 2:38 is indeed the door, the entrance... but true love can never come forth in our hearts without first walking through that entrance, and allowing the spirit of Christ through His blood be applied in our lives.

First the cross, and then His love abiding in us. No other way.

Without the cross and the power of Pentecost, the disciples were powerless to do what Christ was asking them to do. They tried and failed. Peter failed miserably, denying Christ in his darkest hour of need. But... after the cross, and after Pentecost, all that changed.

First the cross... and then the love of Christ working through us... that is the key.

True acts 2:38 experience is the opening.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

you are seeking a test for salvation, that essentially includes agreeing with the words that you are saying, perhaps, when it is doers of the word that are championed. So there is a sense in which you can run from works, but you can't hide.

I'm seeking nothing but repeating what the Bible says. Jesus and the Apostles made the stipulations. Not me. Jesus said except we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no eternal life . He explained that meant believing his words. And the flesh and blood aspect points to words of the crucifixion.


You can't get away from it. The cross alone saves. And that requires inclusion into the death of Jesus which Romans 6 says is baptism.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

i would not disagree, but that obviously does not mean that you have found the perfect expression for these concepts, like you think you have. Many will cry "Lord, Lord," or iow nod their heads in unison with you, and yet never find salvation. And many will disagree with you, and yet find it. It is a spiritual principle that must be lived, not a religious fact to be memorized. Saying that you believe Christ died for your sins will not get you into heaven, and refusing to say it does not condemn you. This is also a Scriptural principle, outlined in many passages.

God judges one's heart, and when you agree with some parts of Scripture, even verbally, often, and loudly, while denying the parts you don't like, it shows in the cracks in your theology, in a bunch of ways, Pride foremost. And it can be pretty much all downhill from there.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

There will always be people like that. But it remains that when a person genuinely carries their cross and denies oneself, they are building on the rock.

It seems you have an aversion to thinking we can't know exactly how to be saved, while the bile plainly says we can. If you think we cannot really know, the bible certainly does not give that impression.

1 Jhn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

That is a given, Shazeep. Everyone here knows that.

It is not a matter of saying it. It is a matter of the heart, and if we genuinely believe He died as us and that is the the only way to heaven, and we distinctly experience a touch of God after He sees that faith in our lives when we're baptized into that death.

Of course. Again, you're preaching to the choir. That is basic Bible understanding 101.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

understanding it will not save you; and your speech in other areas belies your understanding, wadr. You believe that Acts 2:38 is the doctrine, and argue against Scripture that plainly tells you "Love one another" is. Not that this won't change someday, as surely it will.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I know we have been round the block on this subject a few times, but there are still some questions in my mind that just don't line up.

But first Acts 2:38 is a set of works, no matter how I wrangle it, it still comes down to works. Not only that according to apostolic's it is not just one work but three. Repentance, baptism and speaking in tongues. In essence you are doing something to get something!

Yes it has been said that faith can be considered a work as it is doing something. But right here in Ephesians Paul uses faith as the counterpart to works so that argument does not work.

I never argued against scripture. I said love one another does not save. That is salvation be my works. Without the cross any way to heaven is salvation by works.

Saying something is doctrine does not mean it is how to be saved. I never said anything about acts 2:38 is "the doctrine" either. It is doctrine, sure. But it is more correctly the plan of salvation.

I still insist you misunderstand what works are on the context the bible speaks of them when it says they don't save.

Works for salvation that are wrong are efforts to earning salvation totally apart from the cross paying for it. Acts 2:38 is useless if there is no cross. That is the litmus test. If something is required of us, and it's useless without the cross, then it can never be categorized as salvation by works.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Yes we have been down this road before, and still disagree, and for the record I am even becoming more of the opinion that Acts 2:38 are works.

James the passage many used to attempt to prove salvation must include works, does not say works saves us. Rather "I will show you my faith by my works" and "faith without works is dead". Just as Paul tells us that Abraham was not saved by works but faith. His righteousness was imputed to him before circumcision. One that is saved will go on to be baptized, and love one another. But one that professes faith that does not have a life change cannot be said to be saved.

That being said everything is useless without the cross. The question is did not the cross fulfill the prophecies or not. Did not the cross bring in everlasting righteousness? That which is accepted by faith?

I have said this before, and it has been pushed off, in a manner of speaking.
In the OT under the law the general populace did not do one thing in order to secure their salvation. It was all done by the priest. The people brought a sacrifice by faith that everything would be taken care of by the priest. They went home believing that their sin was taken care of. Today we bring our selves to our high priest Jesus Christ. And by faith we go home believing our sin is taken care of.

But by apostolic's faith is not good enough, we must complete a set of steps, before one says their salvation is secure.
I am sorry but I do not believe that Acts 2:38 is the plan. there was no plan in the whole of the OT there is no plan today.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

very nice

1Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity

Scripture says that we will do this if God permits. How strange is that? I am struck by how our churches are reflected in this verse (Heb6:1), and our Christians; whether OP or not, we have Christian leaders of 20+ years espousing Acts 2:38, or whatever their sect's "elementary message" is. I am reminded of 12 step meetings, for some weird reason, where you can never hear more than the first 3 steps. Not that any of these things is "bad," this may be their entire purpose--but the early Church was different. But then we are not in the early Church, and i'm not sure that we should be trying to be.

11And each person will not teach his fellow citizen, and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," because they will all know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.

Now i would argue that "Love one another" is the plan, but i might be just agreeing with you, essentially; there is no special ritual to accepting Christ, iow.

13For the One these things are spoken about belonged to a different tribe. No one from it has served at the altar. (Jesus did not come from Levi)

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

However, what if nothing is required of you? (except faith)

you have to admit that OPs require works for salvation, even while you say that works cannot save. If one does not "speak in tongues," they are not saved, according to the OP doctrine (and completely disregarding "as the spirit gives utterance," imo, but never mind). And that is just an example; surely, i must go further, and at least verbally agree with an OP trying to "save" me--i must do works, iow.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Then you are saying Peter preached salvation by works.

But Peter spoke to lost souls who asked him what to do, and he responded with Acts 2:38.

Mark my words, lol, you're going to stand before God and give an account for why you failed to learn that works for salvation only referred to earning it by means of actions that DO NOT REQUIRE THE CROSS to be effective. Mark my words. The more I studied the cross, and the more revelation I received of it, the more I realized what salvation by works meant, and what legalism actually is.

But what you fail to realize is that God knew if Abraham WOULD GET CIRCUMCISED OR NOT when God saw Abram's heart when it believed. Do you think God would have seen a heart and a faith that he would deem righteous if it was in that heart to not be circumcised when God commanded it later?

That is not the question. Again, the question is, "Is something able to earn us heaven apart from the cross?"

Salvation by works is about EARNING. It's about PAYMENT. Entrance into heaven has to be PAID FOR. That is why 1 cor 6 says we were BOUGHT with a price.

Acts 2:38 is only the WALK toward the table that has the banquet on it. The walk does not EARN the banquet. Someone else EARNED AND PAID for it. But we merely WALK to the banquet to get it, and those who do not make those STEPS do not enjoy the banquet. You're making it out as though Acts 2:38 PAYS FOR THE MEAL and PURCHASES IT, when that is not the case at all. In fact, I think you are simply not seeing that WORKS in the context of salvation by works ARE PURCHASING entrance into heaven, when they really are! Nothing more.

But they had to go to the priest and identify themselves as being part of those for whom he would work. That is all that Acts 2:38 is. Acts 2:38 is not the individual asking God to observe how GOOD he is getting baptized so God need not have Christ die on the cross because this person did the baptism better than another person, or than another who never got baptized at all. Acts 2:38 is only walking to the banquet that has already been paid for by Christ, only we don't get to enjoy the paid banquet without walking up to the table.

We only have to MAKE STEPS to the table, or else we're simply not at the PAID FOR banquet.

Sorry, there is. Most plainly there is.

The Old Testament saints had to be circumcised OR THEY WERE OUT OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL. Baptism is NT circumcision. You are OUT of the kingdom without it.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Acts 2:38 is not a ritual. It is useless without FAITH in Christ's death as being that into which we must be baptized. THE DEATH paid for the salvation. baptism is only the WALK INTO THE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BANQUET.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

There is no "what if". It is required. Peter commanded it and said it is part of salvation.

They are not works for salvation if they do not save.
You again totally misrepresent the position of tongues. That is not to say that some people in apostolic circles do not mistaken tongues for what you say, I think many do. That is ignorance, and lot of it is actually fleshly and uneducated ignorance.

Tongues is INITIAL EVIDENCE of what saves, not what saves in and of itself. Whenever I see someone make the same misrepresentation you just did, I always respond by saying the pizza-delivery dude brings in the pizza we wanted, and the AROMA is only the evidence it's there. But I never paid for a smell! I paid for a pizza!

You misrepresent the actual position, whether people in the movement mistake it as you do, or not. :)

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

hmm i'd argue that circumcision of the heart is NT circumcision, not baptism; but i'm out of time, i'll come back later. Have a good day :)