Guns and the Bible
 

The words of Jesus - love your enemies = choose love instead of hate. How do you reconcile the message of love your enemies, with killing your enemies?

How does the current gun-carry message fit with the words of Jesus? I know we have wrangled over this issue before. But it still bothers me.

There are two paths that can be chosen when confronted with evil, and someone wanting to hurt/kill you. You can own a gun and protect yourself and your family by killing, if needed.

Or, you could choose to not own a gun, trust the Lord and probably die.

Which scenario do you find yourself in?

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If we do not provide for our own we are worse than an unbeliever.

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that strikes me as a different lesson; one of provision. We read that one may be forgiven for defending their family to the death, but i doubt one could be said to be reflecting Christ doing this.

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How does Luke 22:35-27 fit into this conversation? Its a good question KBTW. im not laying claim to this as an excuse. Just asking what you think about how it fits into the discussion .

Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler’s bag, or an extra pair of sandals, did you need anything?” “No,” they replied.
But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!
For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’ [fn] Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.”

Re: Guns and the Bible
 

Look to the natural instincts God put inside you. Think about how you would feel if a pair of rapists came into your house and were intent on tying you up and raping and murdering your family. Read about Dr. William Petit and try to convince yourself the right thing to do in his situation was to 'turn the other cheek' (not like he had a choice, but for the sake of argument lets assume you have a choice). The instinct to defend does not come from Satan...

Read the scriptures more closely. The Commandment says 'you shall not murder', not 'you shall not kill'. Big difference.

If you truly believe that 'love your enemy' and 'turn the other cheek' means you do not resist evil in any form, then you must also believe that a police force is not Christlike. The only way a police force - or government, for that matter - can enforce laws is at the point of a gun. The threat of death is the only thing that will stop some criminals. How are mass shootings stopped? By armed men who arrive onsite and either shoot or threaten to shoot.

You don't give every penny of your paycheck to the poor. You don't turn your house into a homeless shelter. You don't disrobe every time you see a homeless person. There are many things that we could do that sound like they would align with scripture, but we don't do them because it isn't common sense, right? What would your life be like if you didn't mix common sense with Christ's teachings? If we don't provide for our family first, and then provide for the poor, what good would we be to anyone? Likewise, if you don't stand against violence, how long would civilization survive?

Lets combine common sense with the scripture.

One caveat/sidenote: this argument is only in the context of a Christian abiding by the laws of his country. Violence against the government or legal institutions does not conform to this standard. 'Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's' - with this and other teachings Christ clearly demonstrated that we are to remain in subjection to our country's government, distasteful as it may be.

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Notice verse 38: The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

It is interesting to note that at least two of the disciples were already armed. If Jesus had a problem with his disciples strapping steel, one would think he would have noticed prior to this point and made them disarm.

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I would suggest that unless a person had a definite, clear conviction to be a pacifist, it would be practically sinful to be unarmed and untrained to use those arms.

1. The Bible nowhere teaches passive disarmament in the face of evil as a general principle.

2. The Bible everywhere represents disarmament as a curse and a sign of conquest and subjugation in punishment for sin.

3. The Bible nowhere represents armed men defending both hearth, home, and homeland as evil, bad, sinful, misguided, wrong, or outside the will of God with one possible exception (the Judeans in Jeremiah's day who fantasised about resisting the Babylonian occupation by fleeing to Egypt).

4. The Bible everywhere represents armed men defending hearth, home, and homeland as brave, faithful, courageous, and strong in the LORD. Ever heard about standing your ground in a lentil patch?

5. The Bible gives commandments and judgments relating to proper and godly rules of engagement in war, thus assuming that war would be possible, not forbidden.

6. The Bible gives no command whatsoever forbidding the waging of just war against the nation's enemies, nor does it give any command whatsoever against the individual defense against murderous criminals.

7. The Bible actually gives a command to be armed, and that was in the New Testament, given by Jesus Christ Himself, to his church.

8. As pointed out already in this thread, some members of his church were already armed, and apparently made it a habit of being armed, even during 'religious services' (the Last Supper).

9. Jesus approved of their being armed.

10. Even when Peter got out of line and attempted to prevent Christ's (unlawful) arrest, Jesus rebuked him - but not for being armed. Nor did He command Peter to disarm, but told him to holster his weapon and quit trying to interfere with His mission. He did however warn him that the consequences of going into battle are usually being killed in battle - something everyone who decides to be armed needs to be aware of.

Furthermore, we are taught to support civil government unless it demands sin. The political structure of the United States includes an armed and trained citizenry being required to maintain a free state. Therefore, our civic duty requires that we be armed and trained, and willing to defend home, hearth, and homeland. And if one believes a Christian must obey the 'laws of the land', one must conclude that in America at least a Christian must support the right of the people to be armed (and all that follows from that premise).

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I grew up with guns. One of my earliest memories is shooting a shotgun.

I hunt and use guns for that purpose.

I do not own hand guns nor do I carry one. I do not have a home protection weapon.

Living in the country far from urban problems gives me a different perspective on life.

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I am reminded of the parable of not binding the strong man's house unless you bind the strong man.

I also think that it is worth mentioning that the first Gentile filled with the Holy Spirit was a military man, someone who would have had to use the weapons of his day to not just to defend his home, but as a part of his every day job.

It's never the gun. It's the intent of the person holding the gun, it's heart of the owner of the gun.

This concept is applicable in many areas of life.

Re: Guns and the Bible
 

if you're going to beat that drum, then you have to allow for the 2nd Amendment, too; when does it become a citizen's responsibility to exercise it?

And while you might be forgiven for personal or family defense, that does not address God's hedge about a believer, and how an attack might be the result of some judgement, whether it is easily connected or not.

i think mass shootings are engineered, personally. And if you are having to defend yourself or your family, that maybe you should take a look at that.

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I have a carry license and generally set in the balcony during church meetings...if a disturbed individual ever pulls a gun trying to mow down the church members, men, women, and children, I'll do anything I can to stop it. My pastor knows it, and there are a couple other guys that he's aware carry as well.

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Standing there and letting someone abuse/kill your loved ones is a cowardly, wretched act.

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Many UPC churches have them now.

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Uh, just little problems for you warriors like....

Matthew 5:5, 5:10-11, 5:38-42, 43-48.

Everyone says WWJD,?

Jesus was the ultimate pacifist. Dumb as a lamb to the slaughter.

You do not belong to you but to God.

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Bwahahahahahahahahaha

That is one of the stupidist things that you have ever written.

So Jesus is a cowardly wretch?

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I guess if you want to live carnal then you will reap the carnal.

As for me and my house, we choose a better path

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I am not Jesus.

Would you go in the other room and pray through as men are abusing your wife and children?

Are you giving your life for them?

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If they were screaming "daddy/husband help me", would you stay in your room and pray through?

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I guess you are far more spiritual than me!

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Yes you are if you have the Holy Spirit. The Body of Christ.

His bride get abused every day.

Get out of the carnal Sean, there is a spiritual side.

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Evil men break in my house and try to rape my wife and daughter, I'll do whatever I can to stop them. Carnal or not...
What would U do Monterrey?
Serious question.

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Sigh, I can see we are talking two different worlds.

Carry on.

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If someone touched my family, they would look like hamburger when I got done.

I will pray through afterwards.

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There is a mans' man!:nod

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Monterrey, here is what you do.....

Go get your metaphoric gun,

point it at the attackers metaphoric head,

tell the attacker to metaphorically stop and lie down,

if he rushes you, then pull the metaphoric trigger.

Your family will literally love you for saving them!...

Capeesh?

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Folks, that is how you counsel preterists in their language...LOL

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Typo..The "I" should be "U", but I fixed it, I want to know if Monterrey would try to stop something like that. Monterey, I won't insult u whatever answer u give, but I want to know.

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:smack

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bump

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C'mon Monterrey, answer him.

Are you a man or a preterist?



LOL

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Sorry shag, couldnt resist.

Re: Guns and the Bible
 

A great response Esaias and I appreciate everyone else adding their input.

This is a serious question, that one can find conflicting views with in scripture.

Nowhere do we see the disciples killing anyone, even though they feared greatly for their lives. Nowhere do we see that the Christians fought back against Saul as he sought them out to kill them. But we do read that they fled, and that the word of God was spread throughout the world because they fled instead of fought.

I understand that a nation has laws, and those laws need to be obeyed, and there are those who must carry out the obeying of those laws, such as military and police.

But if we are to love our enemies... who then are our enemies? If our enemy is not one who seeks to kill and destroy us, who then is our enemy?

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Fleeing is our 1st line of defense in a home invasion. Standing your ground is sometimes inevitable though.

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I know this is a serious question. I have often pondered it myself. I honestly don't know how I would respond to such a scenario. Truly. We own guns. I know how to use them. Could I kill someone who was trying to kill me or harm my family?

I don't know. I think I would try to wound them, though.

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Never pull a weapon you don't intend to use.

Always aim center mass.

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IMHO, Not so much a matter of trying to wound/harm or kill someone, as it is simply trying to stop someone with the worst of sick headed intentions. When A child makes eye contact(under the worst) w the one who should protect them, I believe that protective instinct will out of love, attempt do what is necessary to stop the situation.

It's not a a matter of shoot to kill, it's a matter of shoot to stop.


But maybe I am just carnal.....guess I'll take my chances...


Scripture...still very debated

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Jesus took whips to folks that irked Him.

If someone would have assaulted His mother, He may have busted that person in the chops?

Who knows?

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Indeed, finding scripture for this debate can be found for both sides of the argument. I believe it must come down to the individual, and the situation as it presents itself. I don't think there is a one size fits all for this discussion.

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I understand that concept, although I pray I never have to employ it.

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The arguments certainly exist on both sides of this discussion, and I guess we just need to pray that the spirit of the Lord will be our direction, and compass in the moment when we need it the most.