1 Corinthians 11:15
 

11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Forget about whether the broader context of 1 Corinthians 11 is about veils or long hair or uncut hair or whatever else. This verse by itself can be used to establish that long hair on a woman is a good thing and if the bible calls it a good thing then who can be against it?

I think many apostolics have forgotten the biblical principles that established certain practices for them. As such the veil arguments and uncut hair arguments and everything else are just distractions from the most sure biblical principle that Long Hair on a woman is a good thing. The finer details in 1 corinthians 11 can probably be argued all day long but this one point will always remain.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Isn't it interesting no where in all the commandments in the law is there anything mentioned regarding women's hair needing to be uncut or even long?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Does that have any effect on the truth Paul wrote that a woman's long hair is her glory and that it is given to her for a covering?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

No, but it seems to be a cultural issue, since Paul wrote as though they already knew it and he rebuked them for not abiding by it. If they did not get it from scripture to warrant a rebuke for not keeping it in 1 Cor 11, then where else did they get it from?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Paul wrote it was from nature

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

I think this is one of the most misunderstood verses by many Pentecostals.

They view "glory" here as some sort of God given power.

This is really more about how women feel...her hair, to her, is her pride and joy...her hear is a source of pride

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

:thumbsup

Paul says nature teaches that if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her. The 'glory' is contrasted with the 'shame' which Paul says is attached to a man having long hair. What is a 'shame' for a man is a 'glory' to a woman.

Everybody knows that when a woman has long, flowing hair people ooh and ahh and complement her on it. Why? Because it's nice, looks good on a woman, it's a glory to her.

Nothing whatsoever about special powers, shekinah this or shekinah that.

What's even more interesting, is people seem to miss the fact that Paul's statements about a woman having long hair or a man having long hair are simply 'evidences' he brings up to support his argument. Thus, long hair on a woman or short hair on a man is not even what Paul was putting forward. Long hair was 'exhibit D' or something like that in a list of reasons supporting his teaching, found in the opening verses of the chapter.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

That is how I understand that scripture too. It speaks of the femininity that long hair represents. However, there are cultures with women whose hair do not grow long, at least not in the western sense.

I also view this scripture through the lens of the culture and time period in which it was composed.

Not all women have long hair. The Bible's casting of shame on women with cut hair is STRICTLY CULTURAL. It was never presented in the way that some Christians present it.

The language of the Bible reads, "If it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered".

A woman with shortened hair is not a source of shame.

Some women actually look more attractive with certain haircuts and styles.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The woman who prays or prophesies uncovered 'dishonours her head'. Why? BECAUSE it is the same as if she were shaven. Paul right there establishes that it is a shame for a woman to be shaven, otherwise his argument makes no sense whatsoever.

1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

He then says, 'for' meaning 'because of what I just told you in verse 5'. For if the woman will not be covered, then let her ALSO be shorn. This proves two things: First, that being uncovered is something distinct from having her hair cut off. Second, that since it is a shame for a woman to be shaven, and since a woman who prays uncovered is dishonouring her head, she might as well cut her hair off if she's going to pray uncovered.

BUT, if it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, then let her be covered. That is to say, if it would be too much for her to be sheared like a sheep and lose all that hair on her head, then she best be covered.

The whole argument requires that it be shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off, otherwise his argument is senseless.

As for cultures where women's hair simply does not grow long, that doesn't change the fact that 1)if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her, and 2)that it would be shameful for a woman to have her head shaved or her hair shorn off, and finally 3)a woman who prays or prophesies uncovered dishonours her head.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Paul wasted 16 verses for nothing. I wonder how many other 16 verses have no relevance today?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Yes, but that is an additional witness. He appealed to nature to substantiate his claim since they evidently never thought of nature as well.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

What you are not taking into consideration is the REALITY that millions of women don't have long hair, didn't have long hair when those words were penned, and will never have long hair.

If you want to believe God creates every human being, constantly, even now, then believe and accept that God creates billions of women with short hair.

Am I the only person who tries to look for interpretations of scripture that has at least a modicum of consistency with REAL LIFE?

There are cultural norms that form the frame of reference for the writers of all literature, to include the Bible.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

:thumbsup

If it's just a cultural thing, then why would God inspire it to be part of the Bible?

What exactly are we to learn from the passage?

That granny can go ahead and have her short blue hair?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

The lesson is submission and order of authority.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

The missionary call of Christ to the nations is NOT a call to westernize all nations-- but that is what many Christians have done in the past.

They present a gospel of Christ that prejudges the "savages" as savages and they forced a version of the gospel that intertwines western cultural norms with Christianity.

This is very similar to the way that some Christians intertwine "standards" into their presentation of the gospel and into their presentation as to what true Christianity looks like.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Like I said:

As for cultures where women's hair simply does not grow long, that doesn't change the fact that 1)if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her, and 2)that it would be shameful for a woman to have her head shaved or her hair shorn off, and finally 3)a woman who prays or prophesies uncovered dishonours her head.

Yep, he sure does.

Define 'real life'. I, personally, try to look for what the Scripture is saying, then try to believe and obey it. How about you?

Indeed. But, the Bible is not a collection of literature books written by middle eastern dudes. It is the WORD OF GOD, was in the beginning with God, and WAS GOD, and then became FLESH and dwelt among us.

Paul said every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered dishonours her head. That's an apostolic teaching, from an apostle. We reject it to our own peril.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Submission to what? Whose authority?

If the apostle says a woman ought to pray covered, then should she? Should we submit to the apostle's Divinely inspired teaching?

If the apostle was inspired by the Holy Ghost to say that nature teaches that if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her, then is it? Who's the authority?

Paul? God? Fudge? The local AoG? The pope?

Who's the authority?

How does one obey the form of sound words delivered to us by the apostle Paul?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

And another thing...
Jesus Christ is not white. He never was white. It was impossible for Him to look like the way he was represented to look from a western point of view.

Sure, the original artists never meant any harm in their works of art, but the people that came after the original artists took the liberties of the artists and created something else.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Maybe the 13th chapter is cultural? I hope so it is very hard to practice.:happydance Then observing the Lord's supper probably cultural?:thumbsup there is some reform folks that teach baptism was cultural? :highfive
I guess I need to ask you guys what part of Paul's writings apply to us? :heeheehee

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

It is indeed sad when I see for example house churches in India where everyone looks like they belong in Houston, singing Hillsong and Vineyard songs instead of their own indigenous music, worshipping God according to the apostles' doctrines but within their own culture.

Westernizing foreigners and Christianizing them are two very different things.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Wife to husband. Thought that was a given.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Jews aren't white?

I'm sure they'd be surprised to know that.
Is this the real Jesus?

http://seriestreaming.es/wp-content/...-Streaming.png

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Which is why the Nuns, some Mennonites, and many, many Apostolics wear head coverings. Oh but then there the Apostolics that say the hair is given for covering. One is right, one is wrong. Who is it?

Or you can look at the scriptures in a way that encompasses all the nuances of humanity (as the Bible is the WORD of the Creator of all humanity) and find the interpretation that makes the most sense.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Maybe this is the REAL one?

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp...lack-jesus.jpg

(I remember that episode, by the way...)

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

The issue was a veiling. Ask any middle eastern citizen.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

I am speaking to the whole system of perverted Christianity that infuses western norms as sources of righteousness.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

I doubt his feet look like BRONZE. :)

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

https://themessagewithjared.files.wo...s-terrible.jpg

Is that him? With his Disciples? I thought he turned water into wine, not Old English?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Or we can look at the scriptures and just obey what is written. Thus, every woman ought to be covered, and every man uncovered, when praying or prophesying. And if a woman refuses, then she ought to have her cut off. But if she doesn't want that to happen, then she ought to be covered.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

What that picture implies to me is just too close to blasphemy for me to even respond to it by reposting.

Without getting too silly, you guys understand what I am saying?

Infusing western norms into the gospel is an easy way to pervert the spirit and intent of the scriptures.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Well if the hair is given to the woman as her covering, then every male should be bald, no hair, none.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Infusing western norms into the gospel is not cool. But, Paul's teaching on hair and headcoverings are not 'western norms.'

:thumbsup

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Hair is nature's example of a covering that in a long fashion naturally looks more suitable to a woman than a man. But it was a natural example to show the covering Paul actually dealt with... a physical cloth. If it was hair, nature would not be used as a support, but would be the point at the start. But by the way Paul says, "Does not even nature itself teach you," using hair, informs us it's a support example, and not the issue. Nature and hair is an appeal to the actual covering. Hair is nature's covering, but not the one Paul pointed at primarily in this chapter.

Paul appealed to nature earlier as well asking if a bald woman looks nice to support that concept that neither did an unveiled woman appear correct. Bald men are "kosher", but not bald women.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

The woman's hair is given her for a peribolaion (what we today would call a shawl). The lesson about hair is a lesson from nature to support Paul's actual instruction - that a woman ought to be covered when praying or prophesying. If she won't be, then she ought to have her hair cut off. Therefore, we can plainly see Paul is not commanding woman to have hair, but to be covered, and if they don't want to be covered, then they ought to be shorn.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Exactly! :yourock

Btw, I don't know if you all have access but here's a discussion in facebook about this subject in which a number of UPC folks weigh in including Jason Dulle. https://www.facebook.com/jeff.siriba...02242704324428

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Every woman or every corinthian woman?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Paul said 'every woman', not 'every Corinthian woman'.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

A few rapid fire questions for now. Be back later to elucidate.
So then what is the covering? is it hair?, a veil?, the husband?
What about unmarried women? widows? etc? How are they covered in the divine order of things?
What about the nazarite vow for women in the ot? She shaved her hair. Then women not cutting hair cannot be universal.
What would be wrong if these verses were about "customs"? Would God allow something for some and not for others based on customs?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

So is it still sin for women to cut their hair?

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:15
 

Sin is transgression of the law. If God's law forbids something, and someone does it, it is sin. If God's law commands something, and someone fails to do it, it is sin.

I don't remember any commandment 'a woman shalt not cut her hair'.

It is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven. Just like it is a shame for a man to have long hair. Just because various men may like having long hair doesn't change the fact, and just because various women like having short hair doesn't change the fact.

But sin?

'Add not to his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.'