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The problem with praise teams (L)

Below is an excerpt from an article I read. A link to the whole article is provided. While the writer is a Reformed Presbyterian, similarities of what he discusses are abundant in Pentecostal ranks...

Quote:

Congregational praise is a commanded duty that can be audibly discerned; we should hear congregational praise when it is sung, and nothing else (choir, organ, marching band, bagpipe) should be permitted to obscure the thing that is commanded.

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What Ann Hears

Let us take Ann, our blind friend, to two churches on two consecutive Sundays. On one Sunday, we take her to the local RPCNA church, and the congregation sings Psalm 100, in four-part harmony, without instrumental accompaniment. The next Sunday, we take Ann to a NAPARC church that has a Praise Team and it sings the 100th Psalm. We ask her the same question about each: “Ann, what did you hear?” Here are her answers:

Week One: “I heard a congregation of voices united together singing Psalm 100.”

Week Two: “I heard a small number of voices, greatly amplified, singing Psalm 100, and I think I heard other voices, greater in number but lesser in volume, singing along with them.”

Anyone who has been present at such services will attest to the fact that Ann’s answer is accurate. For content, she heard the same thing (Psalm 100). But in the one case, she unmistakably heard the congregation unite in singing God’s praise; whereas in the other, she wasn’t even entirely sure she heard a congregation at all. She’s sure she heard a small number of highly amplified voices, and that these voices were singing together. But the other voices were quieter and more hesitant. Why?

Functionally, the Praise Team has replaced the hymnal. When churches decided to sing contemporary music, they often could not find musical scores, and/or they could not reproduce them for the congregation for legal or financial reasons. So the Praise Team would rehearse ahead of time (at least they had the musical score) and sing the material. It was hoped that the congregation would “sing along with” the Praise Team; and it often did, picking up on the song as it went along. But the congregation—even if the members can sight-read music—cannot sing as vigorously or confidently as the Praise Team, for two reasons. First, the congregation does not have the musical score, and must learn the song by ear. Second, the Praise Team often varies its instrumental or harmonic parts (and worse, its instrumental bridges) between stanzas, so that the congregation is not entirely sure exactly how each stanza will be sung. And since the Praise Team alone has rehearsed beforehand, those who operate the microphones must be sure that the Praise Team is not drowned out by the congregation because, after all, only the Praise Team actually knows what is going on.

What Ann hears in the two settings is two very different things, acoustically. In one, she hears an entire congregation singing robustly together. In the other, she hears a small, highly amplified ensemble, and possibly she also hears a hesitant group of congregants singing along with them. Take the test yourself some time, and you will hear what Ann hears. For just two Sundays, close your eyes during the singing, and listen. You will hear what Ann hears—two very different things. But here’s the point and the problem: in the one case, what she hears–a congregation singing robustly together–is what is commanded; but in the other case, what she hears–an amplified small ensemble, and maybe some others following along hesitantly–is not what is commanded.

The hesitance of the congregational singers is an unavoidable consequence of using a Praise Team rather than a printed (or otherwise displayed) musical score; and the drowning out of the congregation by the Praise Team is due also to the fact that the Praise Team functions as the musical score, albeit one that is heard and not seen. Some Praise Teams are worse than others, of course. Some introduce more variations between stanzas than others, and such variations create even more hesitance for the congregation: Will there be an instrumental bridge between the stanzas or not? Will the same harmonies be employed in each stanza, or not? Will portions of the refrain or one of the stanzas be repeated or not? The congregation does not know—indeed cannot know—how each stanza will sound until it hears it, so the congregation sings tentatively, hesitantly, and a micro-second behind the Praise Team. The Praise Team has unwittingly become like the third grade jokester who invites you to have a seat, pointing to a chair. When you go to sit down, the jokester pulls the chair away, and you land on your backside. The Praise Team does the same thing musically; the congregation never knows (indeed, it can never know) how the Team will perform each stanza until the congregation hears it. And it can only hear it if the Praise Team is amplified to the point that it effectively overpowers the congregation.

Mrs. Gordon chastised me gently several years ago for saying that I just don’t bother attempting to sing when there’s a Praise Team present. I explained why: I was tired of and embarrassed by singing the “Two-Syllable Solo.” Often the Praise Team goes straight from the first to the second stanza without an instrumental bridge; and does the same thing between the second and third stanza. I assume that they will go immediately from the third to the fourth, so I vigorously begin singing the fourth stanza only to discover that I am singing a solo; everyone else is waiting to hear when the instrumental bridge will end. Of course, I catch myself after a few syllables, and I too become like a sheep, waiting to hear what the Praise Team will do next and to follow it sheepishly when it finally decides to do whatever it is that it has decided to do. Mrs. Gordon has sung a few of her own “Two-Syllable Solos” over the last few years, so she now ordinarily adopts her husband’s practice and does not ordinarily sing when there is a Praise Band present.

http://secondnaturejournal.com/the-p...-praise-teams/

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

I have yet to find the Biblical description of the 'praise leader' in the new covenant church order. They had 'praise leaders' under the old covenant but then again there was no congregational singing under the old covenant anyway.

'When ye come together, each of you hath... a psalm...'

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

We are "trying out" an Apostolic Church in our town. They have no praise team. I can tell you for sure you cannot discern the words in much of the singing. It is far from what I think of as Charismatic praise.

Its hard hitting country gospel and Hymn book style. Yet the guitars and drums are so loud my wife was saying she could not hear ANY of the words to the song that brought the house down last week.

I said when you cant understand the words just lift your hands and praise the Lord between you and him.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

David had praise singers.........

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Amazibg how the early NT anemic church ever survived...just barely, few souls added to the church daily

Oh wait....

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 1415804)

David had praise singers.........

And they performed well, I'm sure. There is a time in every service for special singing. But there must also be a time when the pros tone it down to let the Bride sing to the Bridegroom. Corporate, congregational worship died and a weekly "praise concert" took its place. Everybody wants a mini version of Hillsong singers in their church.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1415777)

You are quoting that scripture out of context. Paul is criticizing the saints in that verse.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 1415817)

You are quoting that scripture out of context. Paul is criticizing the saints in that verse.

Prove it.

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 1415817)

You are quoting that scripture out of context. Paul is criticizing the saints in that verse.

Agreed.

When you read the full verse, and really the whole chapter, it is not at all what was implied.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:26

Paul is chastising the church in Corinth, not praising it.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 1415804)

David had praise singers.........

No congregational singing, but had some good barbecues as part of every service, too.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1415823)

No congregational singing, but had some good barbecues as part of every service, too.

Lamb chops every service. ...

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1415807)

I happen to agree with you.

We see a gradual digression of worship methods as the church matured. It seems the more time that goes by that church worship becomes more professional.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1415822)

I will now refute this.

First of all, the context is chapters 12-14. In chapter 12 Paul teaches that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each member for the benefit of the whole assembly.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Then follows a non-exhaustive listing of several types of Spirit manifestation, including prophesying, tongues, interpretation, healing, faith, miracles, words of wisdom and/or knowledge, etc.

From this we see that in the assembly the Spirit manifests Himself through the individual members, that EVERY member is expected to be used by the Spirit in a supernatural way to edify the entire congregation.

Vss 14-27 establish that there is a diversity of manifestations, that is, different people are used by the Spirit in different ways, but this is because the Body is a collection of distinct members, not all one body part but many varied body parts each having a unique function in the Body. Thus one should not despise another because they do not have the same manifestation of the Spirit, nor should one be jealous of another (for the same reason).

Vss 28-31 establish again that there is a diversity of operations of the Spirit (manifestations of the Spirit), including another listing of gifts different somewhat from the first (thus showing each list is not exhaustive). It further reiterates that all members of the assembly do not manifest the same gift, and that the church is to desire the manifestation of the Spirit, and is to covet or greatly desire the 'best gifts', that is, the ones most suited to corporate edification (ie prophesying, speaking as the Spirit gives utterance in the language of the hearers, so as to be easily understood). And vs 31 gives a segue to chapter 13 where Paul shows a 'better way'.

Chapter 13 is all about the necessity of love. Spiritual gifts and manifestations are essentially of no real value unless they are accompanied with a genuine love for one another, because love is greater than spiritual manifestations.

This then brings us to chapter 14.

The first part of the chapter establishes that following love, and desiring spiritual gifts/manifestations (which, remember, are given to EACH member for the edification of the whole assembly) is the proper way to go. But specifically that prophesying is superior (of more practical use) than speaking in an unknown tongue, because with prophesying the hearers can understand and be edified, whereas with tongues (apart from interpretation) the hearers have no idea what is being said and are not actually edified.

Verses 20-25 establish the immediate context of the disputed passage. He again points out and proves the superiority of prophesying over uninterpreted tongues, but notice something: His discussion assumes that EACH MEMBER will be manifesting the Spirit, operating in the gifts of the Holy Ghost. He points out how if everybody speaks in tongues with no interpretation, this is unfruitful and counterproductive. On the other hand, he emphatically states if EVERYONE prophesies, this is eminently suited to glorifying God, convicting sinners, and demonstrating or proving that God is truly in the assembly.

He then says the following:

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

He states when the church comes together, each one has something they contribute. He then says 'let all things be done unto edifying'. He previously expounded and taught that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EACH MEMBER ('every one of you') for the edification and profiting of the whole assembly. Verse 26 is clearly a restatement of the same theme he has been working on for two and a half chapters.

He then gives some apostolic guidelines on how to manage 'every one of you' bringing something to the meeting, that is to say, people are to take turns (not be doing stuff all at once) and are to be willing to give place to each other's gift, as follows:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Notice verse 31, he again reiterates the full participatory nature of a genuine Holy Ghost-filled apostolic meeting. And he identifies the proper order ('one by one'), for the edifying or learning and comforting of everybody.

To suggest that Paul was saying the Corinthians were out of order BECAUSE everybody brought something to the meeting, because everybody was manifesting the Spirit or operating in a gift of the Spirit, is to flatly contradict what he said repeatedly throughout chapter 12, chapter 13, and chapter 14. What was being corrected was NOT the fact that the Spirit was manifesting through each member of the assembly, but the fact that some were denigrating other's gifts, thinking they themselves were more important, and that there was a jumbled confusion of everybody speaking in tongues all at once with no interpretation.

By the way, most 'pentecostal' churches that practice what you suggest is the correct understanding, that is to say, most 'pentecostal' churches that do not allow 'each of you' to operate in the manifestation of the Spirit, but instead have more important people (song leaders, preachers, etc) do all the 'important spiritual stuff', are also the churches that either have NO manifestation of the Spirit at all, OR else they tend to have these episodes in most of their services where everybody speaks in tongues all at once, and there is no interpretation. 'Let's all pray in the Spirit right now', or else during an altar call or something the whole church is speaking in tongues and there is no interpretation.

In other words, those who support your interpretation tend, in my experience, to violate the very things Paul commanded, and tend to do the very things he said not to do. I am not saying you or your assembly does that, it is just an observation I have made from attending numerous meetings at different churches over the years. It can also be seen in bright glorious display all over YouTube.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 1415850)

I happen to agree with you.

We see a gradual digression of worship methods as the church matured. It seems the more time that goes by that church worship becomes more professional.

A similar thing actually happened in the synagogue. Synagogue worship used to involve primarily congregational singing (chanting) of hymns and psalms. Then arose the professional 'cantor', the guy who could chant or sing the psalms or the text of Scripture in an awesome, professional way. The cantors gradually took on more and more until congregational singing pretty much disappeared from the synagogue. The elders had to get together and make some rules to limit the cantors. The cantors were developing more and more complicated, melismatic chants that only trained professional cantors could sing.

Same thing actually happened in the catholic churches. The rise of choristers and 'song deacons' led to more and more highly elaborate singing, until the congregation itself simply could not participate anymore.

We're just repeating history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 1415850)

I happen to agree with you.

We see a gradual digression of worship methods as the church matured. It seems the more time that goes by that church worship becomes more professional.

It's not just a regression in the worship, but in the church as a whole. Church period has become more professional, not only worship.

From the slick weekly message "series," complete with intro videos and backgrounds to kids ministry, teen ministry, etc.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

When God first called the Children of Israel out of Egypt we see that His desire was for them to be a nation of Priests.

They rejected that at Sinaia so God then took the 13th tribe and made them the priests.

But man was not happy and asked for a King. God gave them what they asked for but it was not his first choice.

The Worship in the beginning was between man and God. But man is never happy and desires the easiest way out.

We don't see praisers until David makes them, oh and they were the sons of Korah.

By the time of Jesus' incarnation the Temple mode was in full swing, professionalism was the order of the day, but the Most Holy Place was empty.

Sound a lot like churches today.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

The problem with praise leaders is critical people in the pews...

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

The church is better than it's ever been you bunch of pessimists.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

When I was a deacon, the praise team leader was the number one complaint that came my way. Since the praise team leader was the pastors daughter, there was no resolution to the problem.

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Originally Posted by deacon blues (Post 1415877)

The church is better than it's ever been you bunch of pessimists.

Depends on how you define "better."

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1415807)

And they performed well, I'm sure. Everybody wants a mini version of Hillsong singers in their church.

So like midget praise & worship singers? Awesome!

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1415882)

So like midget praise & worship singers? Awesome!

http://vinylsamongotherthings.com/wp...6/105_5051.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7079d30368.jpg

The term is "little people," not midgets.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by n david (Post 1415880)

Depends on how you define "better."

Also depends on how you define 'church'.

:heeheehee

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1415909)

http://vinylsamongotherthings.com/wp...6/105_5051.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZbH...oonCheeseAlpha

Catch the end of the video.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

That kid on the front row at 2:50 is a CLASSIC!

This video is a keeper, elder!

:happydance

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1415929)

That kid on the front row at 2:50 is a CLASSIC!

This video is a keeper, elder!

:happydance

:heeheehee

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by deacon blues (Post 1415876)

The problem with praise leaders is critical people in the pews...

Or discerning people who know strange fire when they see it?

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

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Originally Posted by n david (Post 1415910)

The term is "little people," not midgets.

That is the politically correct term but I am old enough to know them as midgets!

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1415909)

http://vinylsamongotherthings.com/wp...6/105_5051.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7079d30368.jpg

:happydance

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1415772)

Quote:

http://secondnaturejournal.com/the-p...-praise-teams/

the quote in the quote....

im not a big fan of imperatives.

Re: The problem with praise teams (L)

i don't know--we have rules for getting saved, may as well have them for praise too. As long as someone can quote a Scripture for it, right?