Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Q: Who was Paul's pastor?

Q: Who was Peter's pastor?

Q: If you are a pastor of a local church, then how do you have a pastor? I assume they are at a different assembly? How does that actually work? How do they 'pastor' you?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Jesus and the other apostles

Jesus and the other apostles

Firstly of course Jesus, but most Christians have had a man or men in the discipleship process of their life. A wise person will not try to operate solitarly, but will seek counsel in leading in the local church.

I think we have a misconception of the term pastor and in a lot of cases are thinking of men above what is written (1Cor. 4:6). We all need people in our lives to help us to grow in the Lord, but inevitably we will work out our own salvation. I also think that the term pastor is a ministry and not a title. There are probably many pastors who don't profess that as their title.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

I believe this is the only mention of the word pastor in the NT. It means a shepherd. A shepherd cares for the flock. Not the other way around. For me it isn't do I have to have a pastor, but do I get to have a pastor. If someone truly is your pastor they are there to look out for your well being (not a lord over others). Who doesn't want that. It is the many wolves in sheeps clothing that causes many to withdraw from leadership.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

The Ministry and the callings?

Most denoms seem to place the "pastor" over the assembly and the rest
of the Ministry. I believe that thinking is derived from the same spirit that
asked the Prophet Samuel for a king. The people saw the pomposity of
the kingdoms around them, and wanted to partake of the same.

There is only ONE Ministry, but different callings. Each calling is
subject to one another, and are to complement each other.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Peter
James
Other pastors and Bishops

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Where do y'all get that Peter was Paul's pastor?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

More correctly everyone needs a covering and authority they're under and submit themselves beneath.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Paul went up to the elders at Jerusalem. Peter was there as well. The NT is full of examples of plural leadership, and not one single head, other than Jesus Christ. There is not one scripture in any of the NT that says submit yourself to pastor, or one man... but many that do say submit yourself to others, to the elders... etc.

1 Corinthians 16:16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Exactly!

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Nothing grander than circular logic! I guess we are to ignore Ephesians 4:11-13 because the founding fathers of the church in Acts did not list who their pastor was.

Lets just ignore the whole fact that they were the pioneer of the church establishing the first christian churches.

If the proposition is that because Peter and Paul didn't have pastors we don't nned them then that is absurd.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ..."

Jesus Christ is man's covering (head), and His word (scriptures) our authority.
No man is called to be another man's covering, but a servant. If we serve a
man (have a man for our covering), we actually are serving the Tabernacle.

When we make the Lord our covering, we will serve Him, that is the ONE
that is IN the Tabernacle!

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

.........:happydance

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Where is the circular logic here?

I think you are just wanting to stir the pot, lol...

There are plenty of scriptures to support plural leadership, as noted above.

By all means, post the scriptures that support a one man pastor leadership.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Paul submitted to the Apostles? BAHAHAHAHA! Ok.

That rebel, Paul. Calling out his godly pastor Peter for being
a Jew around Jews and a gentile around gentiles.

Paul that stated of his meeting with the Apostles that those
who should have added to his stature added nothing...


Carry on...

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Mrs CC must have misplaced your TUMS again.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

I cannot disagree more. We MUST have a man over us as a covering. Even Moses had groups allotted under him to take care of people for counsel.

Exo 18:21-22 KJV Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: (22) And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Nope Paul submitted himself.

They submitted ONE TO ANOTHER. Peter submitted to Paul in that gentile issue, and Paul submitted to Peter when he compared notes of his revelation.

Gal 1:18 KJV Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Gal 2:2 KJV And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Gal 2:9 KJV And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Paul had the submissiveness to ensure he receive their approval, for they walked with the Lord.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

That is taken out of context! A human church member as an elder is a covering of the Spirit of God.

If that were the case, how come Moses told people on God's side to come to him, when the people worshiped the golden calf?? Why did Jesus honour the faith of the centurion who said BECAUSE he was a man under authority he himself had authority?

Mat 8:9-10 KJV For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

The whole principle was perfect in the kingdom.

Why did Paul submit to the apostles when he first received revelation to get their right hand of fellowship?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Paul started out with a lack of wisdom and stirred up undue persecution. The apostles talked to him and sent him away for a while to Tarsus. Paul submitted and departed.

Act 9:29-31 KJV And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. (30) Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. (31) Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Study it out. After they sent him away, the comfort of the Holy Ghost hit the place. He actually had to step aside for a while.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

,,,or disagree with scripture...!

(1) We (the Church) DO have a man over us: "...the man Christ Jesus."

(2) Moses is the Old Testament parallel of the New Testament Christ. The
two biggest differences between Moses and the other prophets are these:
(a) the prophecy that another prophet would come, who would be like Moses;
and (b) the Spirit that Moses received was imparted to another seventy.

(3) No other prophet but Moses has that testimony, though many were
used in signs and wonders.
Jesus also chose another seventy whom he sent out to preach; additionally,
Jesus established the Ministry "...for the perfecting of the saints, etc. ..."
Contrary to popular opinion (by many pastors), no other man TODAY can be
compared or act as a figure or type of Jesus Christ.

Only Jesus is our head, and only his words (scriptures) are our authority.

The scriptures teach submission to each other as Peter did to Paul and Paul did to Peter. Moses standing as Christ had men organized beneath him over others.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Where does the Bible say "we must have a man over us as a covering"?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Where does it say Paul started out lacking in wisdom?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you
be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility..."

Is there another Moses TODAY [besides Jesus], or perhaps I have missed
something? Yes, the offices in the Ministry should submit one to another,
for none is greater than the other: but all complement one another!

The one-man rule is contrary to scripture.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

The Bible says nowhere that a man needs another man as a covering. A woman on the other hand covers her head to symbolize the authority over head which is the man. A lady is submissive to her husband, but the man is to protect her and care for her (lead his family). The Lord is the leader protector of the man (and the woman as well). Leadership is essential, but submission shouldn't be demanded. As a man, to feel that I need another man as a covering of protection over me is against my masculinity and also God's word. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The idea that a minister is going to stand in between us and God takes us back to the law of Moses.

A person is wise to be submitted to the God called ministries that is in the Church when they are operating under the direction of God. I have seen pastors before idolized to a degree that people were made to feel like the pastor should not mow his own yard and people should be eager to jump in and serve him. That is not what I see in the scriptures at all. Of course we should honor those who labor in the work of God, but not above that is written.

Submission is a choice and there are natural checks and balances that restrict submission. If someone is a manipulator then many people will read through that an avoid them. If people sense that we are being led of the Lord and we are not self motivated, submission occurs natural and freewill (except for those cases of people who won't submit to anything but self). Submission should also occur in every direction. Not just in one direction upward as in some hierarchy of earthly power.

The apostles and church leaders where found submitting more than anyone. How many days and nights do you suppose the apostles neglected their own wants in order to help others to come to the Lord. The question on this thread is asked in a dogmatic way (as to tear down pastoral leadership as we know it today). The scriptures say that God gave some pastors and so it is obvious that it is a necessary part of the church. Why wouldn't everyone want a pastor in their life? I think the problem is the role of a pastor that is misunderstood with so many. I think the question should not be should everyone have a pastor, but instead what is the biblical role of a pastor.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

The Bible is not specific regarding a lot of aspects of church government. I don't think the bible advocates or prohibits plural equal leadership. However I do believe that common sense and human nature precludes it from being successful the vast majority of the time.

Nature does not have many if any two headed animals. I believe in checks and balances and no one person should have unchecked power and no accountability. However at the end of the day I believe that leadership in any endeavor only works with one person being the primary leader. We don't hve Co Presidents of the United States nor do countries with a parlimentarian form of government have Co Prime Ministers. There is a reason for that. The reason is that it will not work. Are there exceptions? Of cousre just as there is with most things.

If you want to dabble in co equal plural leadership I say go for it. Hope it works for you. Not for me though and certainly not something the bible calls for.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

I believe what we call a pastor is correctly a bishop although the calling of pastor is specific to that role. A person can have a pastoral calling without being in the office of bishop, but a bishop can never be without a pastoral calling. IMO. I think there are different pastors (youth leaders, outreach directors, etc..) in churches but only one bishop to a particular assembly (I think our terminology is just off). Otherwise, it seems it would be counterproductive. I agree with you CC.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

What exactly is being 'led' that REQUIRES 'one man in charge besides Jesus'?

I mean, aren't elders supposed to be teaching the saints, preaching the gospel? Why would that require 'one man in addition to Jesus'?

Or do you mean that a business running itself as a 'non profit religious organisation' needs one man in charge (besides Jesus) otherwise there might be gridlock and the money get's locked up and somebody ain't gettin' paid?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Since "pastor" is merely one of five different grace gifts Christ has given to the church, it stands to reason "pastor" is just as important (but not more so) as the other four in fulfilling the purpose for why they were given by the Lord in the first place:

Perfect the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ (notice NO commas!).

Be this as it may, would we ever ask the following:

- Does everybody need an apostle?
- Does everybody need a prophet?
- Does everybody need an evangelist?
- Does everybody need a teacher?

If the answer is "no" to any of the four questions above, it's automatically precluded that the answer is the same "no" for the question: does everybody need a pastor?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

And yet, I think it wise to say that the CHURCH needs pastors, as much as the other gifts. But are pastors needed at the individual level? Yes, for a time, they are. Neophytes need someone--actually several "someones"--to care for them, be an example in faith and charity, and feed them the "sincere milk of the Word", especially when coming out of the world. But as they mature and transition into stability, there needs to be a transferrence in regards to who now pastors that saint. At some point, when maturity is achieved, an indvidual saint shouldn't need someone to care for them, be an example in faith and charity, and feed them. Jesus should take over that role completely.

I mean, if after 10-15 years in the faith, a saint still needs someone else to care for their soul, be the example they themselves should now be for others, and/or needs someone else to feed them, instead of them feeding themselves and others, then something is wrong.

If this was a purely non-spiritual example, we'd say such a "teenager" was disabled. So why have a bunch of disabled saints who can't care for themselves, be an example themselves, and a feed themselves?

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

From my own life:

YHWH is my shepherd, and I shall not want. He has appointed His Son to be the chief shepherd over all that I am and do. I shepherd my wife and children.

That's it. I don't have a "pastor". I have friends and trusted colleagues with whom I talk and share, fellowship and worship. But none of us tries to "pastor" any of us.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

At what point should those who are in constant, life long need of a pastor change the word pastor to priest?

Does everybody need a priest? If not, why not? And if not, then how can everybody need a pastor at all times forever? Many pastors today give counsel and receive confession, know everything going on in a person's life, including at times the marriage bed, and even indirectly absolve those who have sinned by telling them God has forgiven them or that they can now be reinstated as members, or into a ministry, or whatever.

It's not much different than a catholic priest, when everything else that might be different is boiled down and away.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Maybe not Peter but maybe John or James. He went to them in Jerusalem for guidance

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

amen!

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Since when was the church supposed to operate like the rest of the world government systems? See, that is the kind of reasoning that people use to prop up a pastor/priest idea.

God gave gifts to the church, there were 5 gifts of governing ministry, not one. Jesus is the head, and all ministry submits to Christ. Pretty simple.

Yet, the dictatorship idea continues, because man really wants a kingdom to be built, his kingdom, and not God's. Jesus came to change the way ministry operates, and it was never designed to be a one-man show.

Remember, there were five gifts of ministry given, not one! And Christ the head over all.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

yup! And i suggest that our definition of "church" is not God's, for these reasons. The Church is alive and well, and probably not what you think it is.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

The part I bolded shows how you present a false conundrum. Having a pastor vs plural equal pastors does not mean the single pastor is a dictator.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because there are some bad apples out there who are dictatorial you want to replace them with a two headed monster than in most instances will not work.

As I said you are welcome to engage in whatever form of church government you like but don't act like it is some kind of biblical imperative that we all join your lunacy.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

Yes!

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

So, a pastor then is simply someone you go to for. guidance? So if I seek guidance from a guy 500 miles away once every, say... 15 years, they are my pastor?

And, where did Paul seek guidance from James or John? He was SENT by the church to inquire about a matter of doctrine that was affecting the entire church. And the whole church came to a conclusion theocratically, not pastorally.

Re: Everybody must have a pastor?
 

I don't think the verse means what you think it means.

We aren't to think that because the roman soldier was a man under authority that it somehow granted him exceptional faith.

Rather, because he was a man under authority, he realized in the same way, the sickness afflicting his servant was under the authority of Christ, and in the same way he could give an order to an underling and expect it to be obeyed, the sickness could receive but an order from Christ, without any other demonstration, and it--the sickness--should obey the Lord.

This is what caused Jesus to marvel at the man's faith. Here a un-covenated pagan understood the Messianic authority over sickness better than the people of God who had been promised a Messiah with power over sickness and disease.