Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

I suppose this might trigger some negative responses, but I want to make the point that numerical growth is not a sign of revival.

I was part of a church that over the course of ten years, baptized in Jesus name and/or saw infillings of the Holy Spirit upwards of several hundred at least.

That church runs about 30 adults plus kids.

It's not revival if there is no survival of those "revived" (i.e. brought back to life through the Gospel).

Filled pews don't mean much. I don't mean to discount anything, or what God has done or is doing. It's exciting to see babies reborn into the Kingdom. But it's also VERY discouraging to see those "babies" fall away because there wasn't the right structure? ministry? implementation of vision? to keep them.

I know a former missionary to Papua New Guinea who witnessed 7,000 people receive the Holy Spirit at once, only to see almost all of them leave the Apostolic church because there was no way to disciple and fellowship them all.

The 3,000 that were added to the church on Pentecost remained in the church because they "abided in the teachings of the Apostles" (Acts 2:42).

Unless we can get the numbers of people God is adding to us into the apostle's doctrine, all we're ever going to see is waves of people crashing on the shore, only to be taken out again with the tide.

Numbers are an important part of the Bible, but God's never needed numbers to prove Himself to the world.

One saint that gets a deeper revelation and understanding of the Father, who becomes more intimate and transparent with the Lord, and grows thereby, and abides ever more faithfully in the Word, until death takes him or her, is a/the revival that matters.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Discipleship is as important as any initial conversion. You are absolutely correct that the number of people baptized doesn't mean anything if they don't stick around and grow in Christ.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

The issue at my church is fake infillings. 40 in one tent revival and don't see most again. Hype and crowd manipulation is the order of the day here.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

May I ask why are you still there?

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Praying for direction and not a lot options here.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Where do you live?

New York City? :lol

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

I live in the new Jerusalem. :)

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Plus I have changed alot of what I believed so that makes it hard some times.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

New Jersey? :heeheehee

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

That's not hard, that is bewildering, and if you have children, problematic.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Like I said, not a lot options. Don't want to do the lone Ranger thing, but if they find out what I believe I might not have a choice.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Unless you are going to the Watchtower, or some Cult you will have nothing to worry about. In churches believing contrary to the group only becomes an issue to the leadership when you start to push your beliefs on the rest of the group. If you keep your opinions to yourself then all is well, and you suffer in silence.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Let us fast and pray and seek the Lord together for a change!

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

I've become convinced that we ought not to baptise anyone unless they understand they are committing to serve Christ as a member of the Body.

'And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.'

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Elder, you are ONE HUNDRED percent correct!!!!! :thumbsup

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Must be the Campbellite in me...?

Just kidding. Seriously though, I really feel we see a lot of the problems we see in the churches due to faulty evangelism, that is, we sell people tickets to heaven just like the Baptists (ours just happen to be wetter). As a result people get caught up in the myth of a personal relationship with God and have no clue about their role in the Body.

In fact, I wasted a lot of years precisely because of that. I was never taught what the church actually is, and what 'being saved' actually meant - it means being added to the household of God, a real, actual, definite household... called the church.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Ha!

You know they have a production plant about 30 miles away. When I first went by it I thought it was a refinery until I saw the entrance and the signs.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Seriously?

You need to take a tour and see how they make that stuff. :heeheehee

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Not sure if I want to do that. I don't eat Campbell's products (or much of anything prepared beforehand by any company) but still I don't wanna get too grossed out. I mean, it literally looks like a mini refinery, burn stacks and all.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

I bet that would be one gross trip.

I mean can you imagine the huge vats of gelatinous goo?

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Ha! That's beyond words. It's like a weird, evil Dr Seuss book.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Makes me want to go by there and see if I can get some film footage or pics or something... lol

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

This is the type of evangelism I've encountered over the years:

"Come to our church, it's awesome! We see healings and..."

So someone comes to check out the awesome church because they are indirectly promised a healing. They show up, and God moves, and the power of God is present to save, and someone comes up and does a quick three minute Bible study about "Today is the day of salvation" and in a crisis moment, when emotions are high, a person is expected to count the cost just like that and make an eternal decision to save their soul without so much as a chance to really think about what they're doing.

God is ever faithful and fills them with the Holy Spirit. The church celebrates. They get baptized. The church celebrates even more (and rightfully so) and...who gets their phone number and becomes their friend? Who spends the next six to ten weeks with them at least once a week, doing Bible study and fellowship?

Well, don't you know?! That's the pastor's job. Us regular folks aren't supposed to do anything!

And in a couple of weeks, when the emotions have died down, and the same old same old from the old life shows up--BOOM--gone like the wind.

We have an obligation to show prospective converts that this is an eternal covenant of marriage between them and Jesus. Don't go saying "I do" in the baptistry unless you really want Jesus to be your Lord and Master and rule over you forever.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

From my earliest efforts in evangelism, I have ever strived to win people to the Lord through extensive teaching and personal testimony, so that, by the time they show up to church, there isn't any decisions that need to be made; they're already ready to commit.

I try to win souls outside of the church, if you will, then bring them to the church, when they are ready. If not ready, then, I just pray for them, be their friend, and wait it out, and see who else hungers and thirsts.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Our church is a leased space in a 115 year old factory so we don't have a permanent baptistry. About four times a year we have a baptismal weekend where we bring in two cattle tanks for baptisms. That weekend the sermon for all four services is on baptism. That means someone like me who has gone to this church for about four years has heard the baptism sermon 16 or more times but I still love it because I know some people are hearing it for the first time.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

HUH????

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

You seem... perturbed?

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Did Phillip forget to tell this to the Ethiopian eunuch?

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Nope. When we look at the message of the gospel, when we look at the concept of conversion presented throughout the book of Acts, when we look at the theology and doctrine presented in the epistles concerning the subject, we see that people understood being baptised in the name of the Lord meant becoming a DISCIPLE of the Lord Jesus. There simply was no concept possible of a 'disciple who was not part of the fellowship', it would have been a contradiction in terms.

In addition, considering the errors that have swept into Christendom along with the false concepts of 'salvation' (as if it was all about getting one's own hide to heaven instead being made part of a KINGDOM, a Divine Household and the FAMILY of God) it appears to me that such an approach is needed desperately.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

This is wrong on so many levels I don't know what to say

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Start at the beginning, and explain what is wrong? Do you think people should NOT have it explained to them that baptism is not punching a ticket for heaven, but is far more, and includes a commitment to be a part of the Kingdom of God?

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No I do not! I believe Acts 2:38 punches your ticket to Heaven!! ( Not gonna argue about tongues being the sign of receiving the gift.) The question was asked, what must we do to be saved?, and you know what Peter said. He did not add any theology requirements. If you add any other requirements to salvation you need to study up on what happened at Calvary when Jesus died for your sins!!

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

The question was actually subtly different;

“Brothers, what shall we do?”

and the "saved" part comes later:

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

So one could ask why, if Acts 2:38 was sufficient, have any more words?
(ignoring for now that both repent and be baptized surely have different meanings for you now; demonstrably so)

This presents the truly bloodless salvation; one without suffering. How far from some Prosperity Gospel can one "converted" in this fashion be?

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Not sure if I understand your point.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

I guess I need to understand what you consider salvation. If you believe baptism is a necessity then your idea of having someone understand the concept of commitment or the kingdom and a commitment to the kingdom before baptism is putting the cart before the horse. Not to mention the millions of ideas and different beliefs of what commitment to the Kingdom is! If you wait for a full understanding or proof of such commitment one may never get baptized.

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

i would say that if you read the rest of Scripture without a blindfold, commitment to the Kingdom is all that matters! We certainly have an abundance of Passages that indicate this.
well, i edited at the bottom there, which may explain, but a central point is that Acts 2:38 never mentions salvation, and, like tacking on with the evidence of speaking in tongues, it may be demonstrated that one's understanding must be subtly manipulated in order to accept that Acts 2:38 is all one needs to attain heaven. What did you "repent" of? Surely not what they repented of; the description for them is

41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers

42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

So i guess my point might be that if Acts 2:38 is all one needs, then was Constantine "saved," with his deathbed pronouncement and baptism? Why not just wait until one is old and dying? :)

Re: Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...
 

Well if verse 42 to 47 is commitment to the Kingdom and such commitment is what one needs for salvation we are all doomed! However who are the people mentioned in the last part of 47?

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Well, i don't know that we would have to exactly duplicate that passage, i think that was for then, but the passage indicates the frame of mind of the new believers, and more importantly, perhaps, the community that existed for them to be nurtured in at repentance (which is not salvation).

Also, you do not know if there are not believers exhibiting this type of community today! So while i might agree that surely most of those who believe their ticket has somehow been punched--in defiance of much other Scripture that would indicate otherwise--are doomed, with God all things are possible. Such commitment is what one needs for salvation; thus "Count the cost."

Let's be honest; if "doing" Acts 2:38 will "save" you, then you can do it on your deathbed, right?

As to those "people," I'm not getting the point? I'd say the citizens of the town, but I'm guessing.