Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Are there still any ultra con churches in the UPC? Pastors that keep there license but fellowship with only a few select UPC churches. Just wondering since there are alternatives without feeling left on an island anymore. For obvious reason I am doubt there is.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Would that not imply that those ultra con churches consider themselves ultra cons?

It's my experience that the majority of people who are considered ultra conservative do not see themselves as ultra conservative.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

No, next question?

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

I need your definition of ultra-con before I can answer that question.

Wedding rings?
Facial hair?
Dresses?
Uncut hair on women?
No TV?

I can say there there are quite a few of the above, that I know of.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Main criteria being that they see themselves as more conservative than the typical UPC church and like I stated don't fellowship the typical UPC functions. This is just the outside looking in type observation not some deep analytical question. LOL. I wouldn't consider no TV or uncut hair ultra but still moderate. If that is a criteria than I would have to consider UPC far lib. No wedding Rings? yeah, that is pretty con I would still agree.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

There are several/many (not sure how many, but I can think of 10 right off) UPC affiliated churches that also fellowship WPF, GIB and other UPC churches.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Help me with the alphabet soup.

WPF I know and UPC I know but GIB eludes me.
:nah

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

I think "Good Independent Brother"

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

It seems all the bigger names (cons) left. Guess some kept their credentials out of habit.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

I can think of a couple of UPC pastors who fellowship WPF mostly, have disaffiliated their churches but keep their UPC credentials for some reason. They gripe around about how liberal the UPC is but won't join their fellow travelers in the other organization. Not sure why...

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

I have noticed that many of the the "moderate" UPC churches have actually moved more conservative since the departure of many of the "ultra" cons.
Sort of strange...

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Wendell Myers used to say "a lot of them preach it but I enforce it".

You can tell that stuck with me.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

They must not of heard the news in Florida? :heeheehee

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Now that is a name I haven't heard in a while. Wendall Myers was epitome of ultra conservative in our state. To the point he would not hardly fellowship with the rest of us sinners. I always had a hard time respecting the man, on the other hand my first position as assistant pastor under Francis Mason, who held as strong of a position on standards, also kept an open heart and mind to if his position was wrong he would change after much prayer and study.

Seems to me the Ultra Conservatives pulled out and became an island to themselves and you don't hear much about them anymore.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

GD - I run in both UPC and WPF "circles" and most of the WPF seems to be growing faster than the average UPC church. Also, seem to see more WPF new church plants than UPC (at least proportionally).
Of course I do not have as much insight with the "lib" side of the GIB or UPC, so my perception may be skewed.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

I don't think that is the case at all. What was deemed moderate was only seen that way because the ultra con. were so ultra. At least in my state I have not seen much change one way or the other in the teaching of moderate UPC churches. I was raised in what was considered the most moderate, middle of the road churches in our state. And though I have been out of UPC for 10 years my parents are still members of that same church, and it has not changed at all.

Ah well just my opinion. Carry on.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

GD - don't be so defensive! I appreciate the insight.
I will say that there are some churches that do not associate with the WPF, because they are not conservative enough, either.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

There a several Independent congregations in the NW and some AMF congregations. Most were UPC at one time.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Washington is probably one of the most fragmented disjointed states in oneness circles. Even the cons can't agree enough to unify. Churches with 30-60 members spend more time at rah rah meetings for their own cause rather then getting to know the people in their communities.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Sol he was "God's enforcer'? Sadly I think that is the perspective of too many Pentecostal preachers. Once again your statement validates my thesis that a lot of Pentecostal preachers model and think of themselves more like Old Testament Judges and Prophets than Jesus' ministry.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat"
"Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
"And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

Looks like Paul considered himself "God's enforcer", also.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

True, but Paul was a unique man with a unique calling and a unique authority. His ministry is not the basis for all New Testament ministries, and/or especially pastoral ministry. He was an Apostle of signs and wonders and diverse miracles, with a special commission to be THE Apostle to the Gentiles, called upon to write more than half of our New Covenant Scriptures.

It was within his right, therefore, to pen the words he penned, as you've quoted above. But he certainly didn't make anyone keep a standard he didn't author.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

:thumbsup

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Called a preacher...a teacher...an apostle.

Paul's calling to be an apostle was not "unique", except to the extent that he
was called to the Gentiles. But even then, it was not unique because Peter
was the first apostle to preach to the Gentiles. Even the "authority" Paul
exercised was not unique, as his alone.

Signs, wonders, and miracles followed Paul, even as they also followed the
other apostles. And lest we forget, there were the forty that the Lord sent
out before His face to: “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead,
cast out demons." All this, and not to mention the authority and gifts of
the Spirit given to the Church!

The "standard" that Paul preached was not his, but belongs to the One who
said, "Be holy...as I am holy." Now if God wants us to be holy, it could be
because He has given us the power to be holy...unless we are having doubts
and believe not!

"...help thou mine unbelief...".

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

So we should discount his words and example in the scripture because of his "uniqueness"?

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

I don't read where votivesoul is saying the above but making the case for keeping scripture in context. Do the men and women sit on different sides of your church?

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

No he didn't discount Paul's writings or authority, just the fact that men of God can operate with Apostolic authority today. If Apostolic authority is dead then the church is dead. It was Titus who was told to "speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority".
And Timothy was told to "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

To contend for truth while exposing error and sin is apostolic.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

By no means. But here's the kicker: Anyone can presume anything about their calling and authority, even if such presumptions are not true. Doesn't stop them from saying things they shouldn't say, or doing things they shouldn't do. Nor does it stop anyone from buying into the presumptions, as offered to everyone else.

The Ephesians put to the test those who said they were apostles, and Christ commended them for it. I know someone who thinks he is called to be an apostle and prophet, but has no signs, wonders, or diverse miracles backing him up to cause anyone with any real knowledge of Holy Scripture to think of him as such. His understanding of the Word is biased and in some places flimsy, yet it doesn't stop him from playing the "God told me" card. And he certainly won't submit to being tested by a local assembly.

So, my point in my previous post is this: The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. Paul dealt with a lot of talkers, especially by the Corinthians. And by dealing with them, I mean to say, he went straight to Corinth to see their display of power.

Without a display of Holy Spirit power, no one is qualified to enforce anything, regardless of what they say, or how they claim otherwise. The power of God comes with Apostolic and Prophetic calling. Until the power is demonstrated, no one can accurately claim to be either, therefore, they have no right to be the enforcer of anything, as the foundation of the church is not built upon them, but upon others.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

No doubts. I only mention Paul because he was the apostle being quoted. And yes, while other men were and are apostles, and other men, in the Gospels were given power to perform the miraculous, it doesn't negate the uniqueness of Paul's calling.

A careful study of Paul's life shows the Lord called Him to be and do many things He didn't call anyone else to be or do.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

My brother is UPCI affiliated, and pastors in Illinois. I would consider him moderately conservative. :nod

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Thanks for returning to the original thread. Kind of threw me off.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Here is a test;

1. Does he wear or allow people to wear short sleeves?
2. Does he preach against video of all sorts including home videos?
3. Does he not believe in video screens in the church for song lyrics and or image magnification?
4. Does he prohibit his young people from UPC events because he fears they will be corrupted by those with a lesser standard?

If he doesn't pass that test then he is just a moderate! (within the Oneness Pentecostal world anyway. For everybody else he would be very conservative anyway)

:happydance

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

CC - most WPF churches "allow" 1, 2, & 3 now. As for #4, most I can say that for a time we stopped going to UPC youth events, due to some issues. And if you look at who the national leaders of the youth were at that time and where they are now, the uneasiness that we felt was God driven.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Did Paul say to make men and women sit on different sides of the church?
Also, please point out how I took the scriptures I posted out of context.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Which is hilarious because they used the TV vote as their reason to hit the eject button.

Then they turned around and started live streaming some services.

NW is not ultra conservative by any means. Floyd Odom was and is but not the present chairman. How they ever put him in is beyond me. Conservative not, political yes.

Then you go to youtube and pull up their special services, how can they take a zero stand against TV when they have live streaming and video?

Confusing.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Scholars claim the women and men sat apart from each other for centuries under the Law and continued into the early church, giving rise for women to keep silence because they were talking across the fellowship asking their husbands what the preacher meant, and interrupting.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Not out of context with Paul's message but the application of taking Paul's admonition for that purpose and applying it to 20/21 century westernized authority. Of course I don't acknowledge the sole authority of an individual over a church the way it is practiced. Oneness churches don't operate within biblical church government. Elders and deacons are non existent in true form.

Pastors are a mirror of the celebrity world that the very same despise. You can't tell me different cause I been there and seen it for myself.
I go to bro.....so an so's church. Going to BOTT...next question....who's preaching? Oh man that ought to be good. And on and on. The typical conference is mere entertainment. Very wholesome however but again, a replacement for the world of entertainment that is rejected and despised.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

Much to my disappointment. I think the WPF as a fellowship is not as strong today as it originally set out to be. Still good men nonetheless.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

They do take a stand against television and Hollywood type entertainment.. and to be commended for that at least. The current chairman is more conservative the majority of the UPCI, IMO.

Re: Any UPC Ultra Cons Still Around
 

No kidding.
Don't take my words out of context.
Lol
I was specifically quoting Paul's words of reprimand in response to a post that chided a preacher for enforcing standards.
Then here comes the smokescreen of "well here was the tradition in Paul's day" and "well Paul was unique and you cannot follow him for a ministerial example"...
Or at least that is what I got out of it.