What would you do in my place?
 

I have reached out to the local UPC presbyter in my section, but because the local city Pastor believes that he should be the only UPC pastor in his town, he will not allow a competing church.

Our city has 70,000 people in it.

I agree with the fundamental doctrine of the UPCI, always have, always will.

But my attempts to be a part of the organization in which I was raised and have tremendous appreciation and respect for, have up to this point in my life been unfruitful.

However I have been asked by a large non-UPC group (many, if not all the ministers are ex-upc) to fellowship and eventually join their group.

Should I do this?

Or remain independent, hoping for a better day in the Western District?

What say ye?

If your views can co-exist with that of the other group, join them, other wise stay independent.

Does the independent group stand true to the doctrine, or are they wishy-washy in that regard???

Have you prayed about it?

BTW, I have found that in the UPC, to be able to get a license with them, it is not what you know, but who you know. If you don't follow their politics, then it would be hard to be licensed with them.

I have found that I am not accepted by Apostolic organizations, so I am part of a trinitarian org that accepts me, even though I do not believe in their doctrine and there are some ex-UPCers in this org.

I believe that they are not hard and fast and hold a broad view of salvation, most characterized by a liberal PCI view of salvation.

Call the Bishop...

I have been praying about this over the last 7 years, my only desire is to a part of something larger than myself, make a contribution, and gain some of what is best about the UPCI.

I think they would tolerate me, one of my questions is to them will be I still feel Acts 2:38 to be normative response to the Gospel, is there room in your big tents for me, I want to be accepted not simply tolerated?

is this group in Amarillo too?

Not sure?

Bro. Keith,

First, let me say that this is tragic for the souls of your city.

As to the real question, I would ask myself if I could walk in agreement with the men of this larger group. I would also ask myself if fellowship and membership in this group would positively or negatively affect my walk with God.

It is a tough situation and one I have been contemplating for several years. Desiring covering and fellowship I have explored many opportunities with numerous groups and I have come away convinced that I am prospered spiritually and ministerially more by remaining an independent fellowshipping in UPC circles.

I will be in prayer for the direction of the Holy Spirit in this matter as I see the decision affecting not only your ministry, but also your family.

I understand that completely. There are some good things being a part of the UPCI and I pray that God's will is done in this situation.

K4H, Call your church the Pentecostal Fellowship Church and show up at every possible UPC function - local, district, and national and when someone asks why you aren't licensed UPC tell them. You will have the respect and the fellowship with the exception of a few narrow minds.

:killinme:killinme:lol:lol

I have a feeling this is will be where I remain. Thank you for your wise post!

I still want my children (sons) to marry girls who believe as we do, when they are older I will take them to a large local UPC church for them to do youth activities with.

I do actually like that name!

But I don't think you are familar with the forces at work in the Western District.

If you moved 10 miles down the road, would the Bishop allow you then to start it up?

Ok. First of all, let me say that it is completely unreasonable for one man to think his church will be enough to serve the needs of the people in a city of70,000. I would go over whose ever head I needed to to join, if I were you, Brother. Just make sure it's something the Lord wants you to do.

Preach it Bro!!!!

How about just continuing what you are doing and hope to get the credentials in the future. As you know it is easier to say "no" to a possible new work then it is to rebuff a work that is already in existence and has a track record of attendance and established membership. The longer you are there the more credible becomes your arguement.

Gee...you know it's too bad some guys can't get together and form a group based around Oneness, the Pentecostal experience and believing in water baptism in Jesus name without everyone contending for their different views to the disunity of the body...has anyone ever thought of doing that? And if there is such a group that believes and practices it let me knowm :-)

BTW there are cities larger than 70k and only one church. The problem is many fold...

New pastor comes in and has no problem building his church from members of the other church than starting from scratch.

Old pastor feels threatened and is now no longer fighting the devil but another pastor trying to steal saints from his church.

The old pastor may not necessarily even be a bad pastor...he may though be less liberal leaning than the other and because we live in a society where not only is there a McDonalds on every corner to choose from if you don't like one but there are also just as many churches. Sometimes this can be a good thing and sometimes it can be a bad thing.

The problem I think is lack of oversite of those churches...perhaps our churches have too much autonomy if one established church in a city can take members from another established church in a city and build a congregation that way. That's not church building.

It has happened. I am in NO way suggesting Keith does that, but I think that is why some pastors fight other UPCs being built in their city....but in the long run this really shows just how far away from God we really are and in disunity we are.

If I were in your place, I would do what I have done. I left the UPC 10 yrs ago and have not looked even ONCE. It is not out of disgust that I have not looked back. I have not looked back because I believe that I followed the "Cloud" when I left. That being said, I have had numerous "invitations" to join other orgs. The only reason that I have not is that for me, in the city I pastor in, being completely independent affords me the ability to make a difference in far more circles than if I were part of an org. I'm not against orgs at all. I have just found that, for me anyway, that the org benefits more from the membership of the ministers than the minister does. Funds flow primarily in one direction only.

I have a good rapport with the other ministers in my city. If someone comes from another church, I normally call the pastor to see what's up. Even if the person is leaving to find more truth. It protects my relationships, builds trust, and saves me heartache as well. I want people who feel called to leave their church to do so with their relationship with their pastor intact, if at all possible.

I personally think it is despicable for ANY church to think that they have a RIGHT to the people in a city. Organizations have been the greatest thing to missions and at the same time the worst thing for sinners looking for a chuch when that paradigm, (which I believe is from hell) dominates a group.

You are obviously in rebellion and not the will of God. You should resign your church, put yourself under a UPC pastor for a year or two of restoration, then go to a town where they actually want a UPC church.

There are probably hundreds maybe even thousands of towns across the nation where the UPC would gladly welcome a Home Missions church so there is no reason for you to compete with a local UPC pastor who wants no competition.

BTW this does NOT happen everywhere, all the time. There are cities with several UPCs in it.

We know. It just doesn't make a lick of sense that in a city of 70,000 people that one man can have so much say over whether a new church gets established. That is downright stupid!

I've always thought that, but at the same time there are a lot of cities here that have no UPC at all...

Question, what if God calls a man to start a church in a certain city and the local board says no?

Why do we have so many cities...many with populations as large or larger than Keiths?

Why aren't we planting MORE churches when there are men like Keith willing to start one?

Something is messed up

Bro,

It is sad indeed and people need to hear the truth, but when something goes on like this, it is carnality that pastors have that stop the progress of reaching people for the kingdom.

SO TRUE in what you said in this last paragraph.. BUT SADLY SO TRUE IN THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION you mention here.

My advice would be to pray about the matter ,but hey there's alot of fellowship groups out there.Wheter you have a card or not ,you'll still be in the Ark as long as you are in Christ.

That is mean or were you joking?

This is what carnality does.

They won't allow you to reach any of the 70,000?

The org itself is not bad, but in an org that size, you will find some carnality, greed, and other things that make it look bad.

That is so sad.

That would be cool if it is God's will.

What saith the Lord?

Keith, hey man! Randy had it right...CALL THE BISHOP!!!!! Praying for ya bro.

Would like for everyone to pray for a friend of mine's grandmother
 

She tried to commit suicide and she thinks that she is useless and that nobody loves her.

I will pray.

Thanks and I posted it in the wrong place, because I was talking to her while I was in this thread.

Hmmm..not to detract from this but that is sort of how I feel...though I have never tried to commit suicide.

Is she alone?

Thanks :-)

You know I really was gonna visit up there but we have so many things going on this month...I need to spend some time this week working on a worship study for a group and then I am photo-guy disignate for a wedding (doing a favor, Im not a pro) and the the next week after that we have a scheduled concert here.....