Israel and their corn
 

Interesting thing I stumbled across tonight and it may be just for the simple minded. I was reading tonight in the Old Testament about grain offerings. It mentioned corn that was beaten and it appeared to me that corn as we know it did not likely exist in that part of the world in those days. Corn as we know it, was domesticated in the Americas.

Other Bible translations say grain in the place of corn. The English word for corn simply means kernels (by some dictionaries). No doubt, the KJV translators had a different use of the word for corn when it was translated. Wheat, barley, oats, etc. could all be considered corn.

It was a grain with kernels in the OT they would have used, but the mental picture we get of golden yellow corn is just another example of how our understanding of language can affect the mental images we see when reading the Bible.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Another example of why I dont use the KJV

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Good stuff, especially the conclusion at the end.

The likely grain grown in Israel at that time was barley.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

If you have one it sure hurts to walk on it.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

This is a corny thread.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

lol--the conclusion is quite illuminating though. Anyone with any foreign language experience knows that translation is not linear. Some expressions in a foreign language simply have no direct translation, and when you are talking about an ancient language, from an ancient people, with completely different mores and culture, the problem is vastly compounded.

A lexicon helps, but who understands the "shame" of having no children, for instance? It is a lifestyle choice for many now. Scripture abounds with these, for us.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

I used to be a KJV only. Through study I have come to the conclusion that the English has changed so much that it is not as easy for everyone to read and understand. I think every Christian should own and read a KJV Bible, but I think it would be good to encourage people to also consider a more modern translation as well. I really like parallel Bibles.

I don't feel the KJV is in any way in error, but we error in our understanding of the 16th and 17th century English. It is not a problem if people will study and rightly divide the Word. I love finding discrepancies in the KJV bible because when I study it out I usually learn something new about differences of language.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

amen, i ditched Easter that way.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Still love the KJV, probably because I grew up with it!
Have been using The Message translation lately, in conjunction with KJV.
It sometimes adds more meaning for me.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: Israel and their corn
 

I was saved using the KJV, so though I never was a KJV Only person, I was close to it.
After years of loving the KJV, I finally got over my infatuation with it.

I still use the KJV as my base text, but I always look the verse in other translations, which gives me a broader and clearer view.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Corn is a grain.

The Message Bible is a mess. I had one given to me...ended up tossing it in the trash where it belongs.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Yeah, the Communists used to throw away Bibles, too...

:lol The Mess-age isn't a Bible. It's Eugene Patterson's notes about what he thinks the Bible says.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

OK so besides the KJV, which other version do our read?

Or will you throw out all all other versions?

There's a difference between a translation and what Peterson mostly made up with the Message. I think you know this.

I read KJV, NASB and Amplified versions of the Bible.

No, I don't toss other translations of the Bible.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Peterson actually translated from the original languages.
What passages did you object to?

No, it's not a translation.

"""In an interview with Christianity Today, Peterson described the beginning of the creative process that produced The Message: "I just kind of let go and became playful."""

http://www.gotquestions.org/The-Message-MSG.html

There's also a weird issue with Peterson using "Master" instead of "Lord," which some claim is a sort of homage to New Ageism. Not sure I agree with that or not, just interesting.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Another example of why English has deteriorated to where most English speakers in America are almost illiterate.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

What us Southrons call "corn" used to be called "Indian corn". Now I call it "Monsanto k0rn".

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Again, what passages do you have an issue with?

The whole "playfully" written book.

One of the well criticized verses is Matthew 5:5, where Peterson goes well away from any translation to insert his personal doctrine:

"You are truly blessed when
you are content with just who
you are - no more, no less."

He takes out homosexuality as a sin from 1 Corinthians, choosing to rather to write against those who "abuse sex."

I don't need to list everything for you. If you've read it, you should know. If you haven't, I don't have the time or desire to do your homework for you.

Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but you ask stuff like this all the time. Do some research for yourself.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Because they don't use the KJV? :smack

Re: Israel and their corn
 

No, because they can't stand to learn the whole language into which they were born and raised. As an example, just this minute I was reading a passage from Philo:

"The solemn assembly on the occasion of the festival of the sheaf having such great privileges, is the prelude to another festival of still greater importance; for from this day the fiftieth day is reckoned, making up the sacred number of seven sevens, with the addition of a unit as a seal to the whole; and this festival, being that of the first fruits of the corn, has derived its name of pentecost from the number of fifty, (pentekostos). And on it it is the custom to offer up two leavened loaves made of wheat, as a first fruit of the best kind of food made of corn; either because, before the fruit of the year is converted to the use of man, the first produce of the new crop, the first gathered corn that appears is offered as a first fruit, in order that by an insignificant emblem the people may display their grateful disposition;" (Philo, Special Laws, Book II, 30:176)

I mean, look at that. 'Corn' repeatedly used for wheat! Too bad nobody can understand what was written, because 'corn' means that big yellow stuff off the cob 'cordin to Mama - not to be confused with hominy, ya hear! Lord forbid anyone should actually learn ENGLISH and thereby understand that 'corn' means THIS:

1corn
noun, often attributive \ˈkȯrn\
Definition of corn
1
chiefly dialect : a small hard particle : grain
2
: a small hard seed —usually used in combination <peppercorn> <barleycorn>
3
British : the grain of a cereal grass that is the primary crop of a region (as wheat in Britain and oats in Scotland and Ireland); also : a plant that produces corn
4
a : a tall annual cereal grass (Zea mays) originally domesticated in Mexico and widely grown for its large elongated ears of starchy seeds —called also Indian corn, maize
b : the typically yellow or whitish seeds of corn used especially as food for humans and livestock
c : an ear of corn with or without its leafy outer covering

Origin of corn
Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German & Old Norse korn grain, Latin granum

First Known Use: before 12th century

(from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corn )

smh

Re: Israel and their corn
 

"With these words he moved the hearts of the multitude, so many of them as knew not the cunning counsel of Agamemnon. They surged to and fro like the waves of the Icarian Sea, when the east and south winds break from heaven's clouds to lash them; or as when the west wind sweeps over a field of corn and the ears bow beneath the blast, even so were they swayed as they flew with loud cries towards the ships, and the dust from under their feet rose heavenward. They cheered each other on to draw the ships into the sea; they cleared the channels in front of them; they began taking away the stays from underneath them, and the welkin rang with their glad cries, so eager were they to return. " (Homer, Iliad, Book II, paragraph 10)

LOOK AT THAT HORRIBLE TRANSLATION! Why, they used the word CORN! Everyone knows the Greeks and Trojans didn't have Indian corn (maize), so obviously the translation is stupid, horrible, terrible, ought to be updated, etc. I mean COME ON, they even have that stupid archaic word 'welkin'. Good grief nobody can read it!

Oh wait a minute... people who read Homer probably know what 'corn' actually means... they might even be the types to actually look up 'welkin' in a dictionary for bonus points... But then again, who bothers reading Homer these days? After all, we have South Park and The Message (tm), top of the line relevant literature right there, I tell ya!

yuk yuk

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Do you people realise that the word 'corn' appears EIGHT TIMES in the FIRST BOOK of Herodotus' Histories alone? EIGHT TIMES? What were the translators thinking?

"The purpose for which he gave these orders was the following. He hoped that the Sardian herald, seeing so great store of corn upon the ground, and all the city given up to festivity, would inform Alyattes of it, which fell out as he anticipated. The herald observed the whole, and when he had delivered his message, went back to Sardis. This circumstance alone, as I gather, brought about the peace which ensued. Alyattes, who had hoped that there was now a great scarcity of corn in Miletus, and that the people were worn down to the last pitch of suffering, when he heard from the herald on his return from Miletus tidings so contrary to those he had expected, made a treaty with the enemy by which the two nations became close friends and allies. He then built at Assesus two temples to Minerva instead of one, and shortly after recovered from his malady. Such were the chief circumstances of the war which Alyattes waged with Thrasybulus and the Milesians. "

There was a WalMart dedicated just to selling that big yellow corn in Miletus? But the Sardians thought the Miletians would be scared of the yellow stuff? Maybe they were talking about hominy grits, and it just all got lost in the stupid, useless, out of date translation?

Re: Israel and their corn
 

People who think the KJV is somehow deficient because it uses the word 'corn' are CORNY, and have a CORNBALL worldview, in my opinion. How y'all like them grits?

Re: Israel and their corn
 

"Two days after that—there having been a very heavy rise in the price of corn, and great crowds having flocked first to the theatre and then to the senate-house, shouting out, at the instigation of Clodius, that the scarcity of corn was my doing—meetings of the senate being held on those days to discuss the corn question, and Pompey being called upon to undertake the management of its supply in the common talk not only of the plebs, but of the aristocrats also, and being himself desirous of the commission, when the people at large called upon me by name to support a decree to that effect, I did so, and gave my vote in a carefully-worded speech." - Cicero, Letter To Atticus (In Epirus), Harvard Classics transl. 1904-1911.

Them Harvard people got me all plumb confused. Corn cobs gettin too expensive, the 'corn question', people was scared of corn cuz of this Sissy-ro guy? Did he introduce grits to the Romans? roman grits? Sissy grits? Can't understand it, too archaic and too misleading. Harvard really dropped the ball on this one, fer shore.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

BTW, cornpone is good stuff, goes great with almost everything. It is NOT an insult except as used by illiterate yankees. ;)

the KJV shouldn't have used easter in Acts . bad mistake.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Funny how nobody was confused until the recent generation of "new Bible publishers" came along. Not saying that "Easter" is the best translation, but keep in mind "Passover" was a word invented by Tyndale only a relatively short time prior to 1611. Easter was the term English speakers used to refer to what everyone else called Pascha.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Which once again shows the KJV to be correct English, and "the problem" being people's lack of knowledge of their own language.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Re: Israel and their corn
 

How in the world did EASTER come into being, if that be the case? What's the etymology? And why trans;ate it as EASTER when the word PASSOVER was used in the New Testament elsewhere?

Re: Israel and their corn
 

The link I gave goes into DETAIL about the etymology. But short story, as I mentioned, Tyndale invented the word "Passover" about 80 years before the KJV was translated. Pesach was universally known in English as "Ester" (later variation: Easter), as in the older German Oster from which it came. There WAS no other term in English until Tyndale invented the word Passover.

The translators used Passover for every reference to pre-Resurrection Pesach, and used Easter in the Acts passage because it was a post a resurrection Pesach.

Like I said, it was not the BEST translation, but the reasoning (considering the meaning of the term at the time) is valid.

Read the link, it goes in depth into the term's origin and usage.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

If the problem is people's lack of knowledge of their own language, then it is up to us as evangelists of God's word to either bring the message down to their level of education or to elevate their level of education.

Perhaps we need to start people with a children's bible not a KJV and then work them up to the KJV reading level. :D

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Just explain as you go. People are often uneducated, not dumb. They catch on quick in the right environment.

Re: Israel and their corn
 

Sounds good. Give them the same stuff given to the preschool class.

Meanwhile, in Islam...

Re: Israel and their corn
 

NIV says kernel of wheat.