"Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I highly recommend this book by Hunter Lundy, a leading prosecutor in the team that represented Marvin Gorman in the Gorman vs. Swaggart trial.

Having worked for Jimmy Swaggart Ministries from 1984-88, I could really relate and bear witness to this book. I was actually there when the house of Swaggart fell. This book details what was probably one of the worst cases of spiritual abuse ever known in the Pentecostal ranks. Having been a licensed minister in both the Assemblies of God and the United Pentecostal Church, I can say that spiritual abuse is about equal in both groups, but only manifests itself a little differently in each.

I caution whoever may read this book to understand that there is some very graphic sexual content in some of the chapters that was brought up in the investigation. Reader beware.

http://www.amazon.com/Let-Us-Prey-Pu...s=hunter+lundy

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Ah, you worked for JS?

Very interesting.

Isn't he still active in New Orleans or somewhere there?

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Baton Rouge

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I heard he was caught again down in the red light district of there, he told the cop that he was checking out their radio tower.... at 2:00 in the morning.

LOL

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Yep. He could have been delivered from that garbage long ago, but he will only accept deliverance on his terms, not God's. Everything must be on Jimmy's terms. Even God had better understand that.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

What about his son? He looks shifty. Looks like a snake oil salesman of the old west.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

The man is 80 + years old...I find it hard to believe...

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

This was just this year.....

Or so the rumor mill says it.....

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

And there you have it, folks..."the rumor mill."

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

LOL

Well, it is a little more than that....

A good friend of mine was down there at the first of the year and heard about it on the radio, called me about it to laugh.

Dats all.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

It's hearsay.

NOW, I am NOT a JS supporter, however, when it's a Oneness preacher being talked about here, it's gossip. Guess the trinitarians are fair game.

Originalist recommending a book is one thing...he's just talking about a book, but to me, the rest is best left unsaid.

JMHO

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Jimmy is a very regretful man. It shows all over his face. I used to hear Gabriel preach once in a while. Not too bad.
The rumor mill says that church is full of fornication. Possible, sure. Probable, who knows?

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I agree with this...

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

And I respect your opinion, but that is all it is and I also have an opinion that I shared publically. Forget about all the fair talk stuff, JS's life is very public and he has made it that way.

The man has messed up major throughout the years. Not once but many times.

He is still doing things that ministry should not do.

The book included the reference to JS and I commented on it further. I did not realize that O had worked with him and commented on that. Post #2.

It lead to other comments of which are normal on this forum as you well know.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Just not regretful enough to quit doing what brought him down?

The man is a performer.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

My posts were not so much directed at you as they were the whole premise here...

The argument has been that others with a well known rep who have sinned cannot be touched by discussion because it is "gossip."

Again, while I am not a supporter of JS, my question remains...is this 'rule' just for Oneness preachers, or everyone?

And as far as JS "doing things ministry should not do," respectfully, where is the proof? It never made national news that I know of, as before. Hearsay does not count as proof...:nod

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Where is the proof?

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

JS brought disrepute to the Christian ministry.

If this man really cared about the ministry, the best thing he could have done is to simply vanish into the night. Never to be heard from again.

The fact that he is still creating news is proof that he does not care about the Church.
He still wants to perform, his pitiful little ministry is proof that this man is unrepentant.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

So there is no restoration for an elder, even a trinitarian elder? Hmmmm...

While I do not agree with how he handled this...submission to the elders of the church would have been the better way, I am not so sure a man or woman cannot be restored to ministry after failure.

Of course, this is just one old woman's opinion... :nod

And how is he creating news? What has been posted here re current events is hearsay...

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

JS refused to submit to the elders of his denomination, he refused any correction.

He can not be restored because he simply refused to submit to their authority.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

But if he had he submitted to their authority, he could have been restored. Interesting...

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Satan refuses to submit to the authority of God that is why he simply can not be restored.

When a minister refuses to submit to authority and accept whatever correction or punishment is given, then he is in open rebellion.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

A minister who is that messed up cannot be restored to the pulpit. He can be restored to Christ, and live for God. But as far as a minister climbing back in the pulpit he would be at a disadvantage. Paul said that he was once a blasphemer and a destroyer of the church because he did it ignorantly. Therefore if Paul was to go back on that and become a blasphemer again. His testimony and credibility throughout the Christian community would be shot. But again, I'm not saying he couldn't get salvation. Just not have a pulpit ministry. Hey, tell me what exactly is going through the mind of a minister who is watching Internet porn? Or a minister committing adultery? While he is committing an offense against God, and congregation, the most damage is against his family. His wife, his children all suffer way harder than anyone else. To betray his wife and children? That is damage that will take more time then any restoration to a pulpit. No, the brother should of been worrying about more than a platform and pulpit before the crime. Yet, that was never in his mind, but worse than that, was the wife and children.

Sorry, but the Book says be ye NOT many ministers because you know you will receive the greater condemnation.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I agree with EB. I do not believe that there is restoration to ministry after a minister falls. Restoration into the body, sure.
"A bishop must be blameless..." KJV

There's a situation that took place kinda recently at a church I used to attend... somewhere. The church was pretty much destroyed because the pastor allowed a repentant adulterer into the ministry. The man used to be a pastor and stepped down after the affair. He and his wife began to attend the church for restoration and healing, etc etc. That's great! I am all for that! But the pastor went around asking people if they believed in restoring the former pastor. He never stated that it would be restoration to ministry, so many people were for it.

Lo and behold... He was made a minister in the church. The assistant pastor (a man of integrity and full of the Holy Ghost) LEFT the church! I was upset when I heard this. I wanted to ask WHY!? Why didn't you stay and fight for what is right? *sigh*

Then the pastor removed people from the church board. I'm not sure how that works. The youth leader had a petition going around to get the church to hold a meeting to discuss the events. Then BAM! The pastor removed her from the youth leader position before the meeting could be organized.

The new assistant pastor is... the former pastor that had an affair. Now some of us are wondering if the allegations brought against the pastor years ago were true. He was accused of adultery.

Nothing was proved so he kept his license with the UPCI. This is the pastor that I started a thread over about being removed from the org with no notice. The church was full on Sunday nights. After the accusations against the pastor a lot of people left. The way the congregation found out... The adulteress had the mic and had some things to say... But she denied the affair. It was scandalous.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I'm not sure that he can never be restored to ministry in every case.

Take for example, Marvin Gorman. He basically walked into a trap, was seduced like Joseph, had very brief sexual contact with the other party, overwhelmed with guilt he lost the physical ability to follow through with a consummated act, and fled the room. He immediately repented and did not repeat the error.

The other party was another minister's wife who continued to pursue a relationship with Gorman who resisted her steadfastly. Like Potiphar's wife, she became enraged at being rejected and sought to destroy him. She found a willing accomplice in Jimmy Swaggart who viewed Gorman's fledgling TV ministry as threat to his own. She and Swaggart manufactured pages of wild tales of Gorman having hundreds of affairs, none of which could be substantiated. But that did not stop Swaggart from spreading these lies all over the AoG eventually causing Gorman to lose everything. Gorman did admit to the one time, brief encounter with the other pastor's wife, but by the time that was made public seven years had passed.

All the while Jimmy had been visiting prostitutes, by his own later admission, for several years. Gorman discovered this after filing a defamation lawsuit against Swaggart. When Gorman confronted Swaggart in New Orleans after Swaggart had just finished his latest visit to a prostitute, Swaggart admitted to Gorman that he had defamed and lied about him and vowed to make it right. Over the next few weeks the Swaggart and Gormans and several get-togethers where they ate, fellowshipped, wept and prayed together. Gorman promised Swaggart that he would never go public with what he knew about Swaggart if Jimmy would follow through on his promise to clear Gorman's name. But Swaggart never followed through on his promise to restore Gorman's reputation and began to ignore Gorman's phone calls. It appeared Jimmy had hardened his heart and decided the AoG would never believe Gorman that Swaggart had been visiting prostitutes and had lied about him. But what Jimmy did not realize was that Gorman had photos as evidence. But even after being exposed Jimmy still did not repent and was willing to endure a defamation trial where he , against the advice of his lawyers, continually blurted out outlandish statements that only sealed his fate in the minds of the jury.

No, I do not think Gorman deserved all of this and that the AoG should have restored him immediately.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Sorry, I don't think people really understand the situations. These men are in a place of authority. They understand their position, they know what their position means to God and their congregations. Yet, the individual will "knowingly" commit a crime while he is a watchman on the wall? Not a good look, but shows that the brother's integrity and character is in question. They can be restored to Christ no doubt about that, but he cannot climb back into a pulpit and lead.

Sorry my dear brother, but I don't recall Joseph in the Bible having a brief sexual encounter with Potiphar's wife? If he had as much as kissed her he would of been guilty in the eyes of Egyptian law, and in the eyes of God. Marvin Gorman's situation was in no way the same as INNOCENT Joseph. Brief sexual contact does not free the man of guilt. If he had brief sexual contact with a child he would be arrested as a pedophile, and you would have a tough time proving his innocence. Also he was entrapped with seduction? Seriously? Sorry, but I don't by a plea of being seduced, Joseph was being seduced by refuse and ran away. Marvin Gorman had a brief sexual encounter!?!?

Imagine telling your wife that while you were out today you happened to be trapped by a woman who seduced you and you just had a brief sexual encounter? Come on, I believe that you are way too smart to believe the Gorman story or even defend the guy.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

All valid points. However, you have IMO failed to establish scripturally that such a man as Gorman is suddenly "uncalled" and can never lead again. That is up to God, not us. Depending on how he reacts to discipline, one can be declared "blameless" again after a period of time. I'm not not referring to someone who has raped a child. The severity of the sin should be considered.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

This is the thing, the calling wasn't shot in the head by anyone but Gorman. He showed God and everyone else around him that he had no respect for his own position. Listen, he didn't betray just a church family, but a wife and children. What was he thinking? Or should I say, why wasn't he thinking? Did the Holy Ghost leave the minister while he was BRIEFLY having sexual contact? The severity of sin? Bro, does a minister have molest children for us to give notice? Is that how far this culture has sank? I'm so sorry but for a man to tell me that he BRIEFLY had sexual contact with a woman because SHE SEDUCED him? Can tell his story walking. A man blaming a woman for his foolishness was NEVER called in my opinion.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Again, all valid points until you start deciding for God...

First of all, when did he blame the woman? Gorman took full responsibility for his actions.

Secondly, you might want to be careful about saying someone was "never called" to begin with. Allot of called people have failed.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Deciding for God? God gave us His word, and His Word tells us about not having the blind lead the blind. Jesus explicitly warns us to leave them alone. The apostle tells us to mark them who cause devision which are in opposition to the Word. Paul states we are to follow him as he follows Christ, which would mean you are to stop following if he was to stop following Christ. Bishop must be blameless ruling his own house well, be of good report of those who are around him. Yet, please go back and look at your original post. You posted that Gorman was trapped? Were those your words? If they were your words then no issue, but if he said that about the situation, then he was a coward putting everything on the woman. Trapped, seduced like Joseph? Again are those your thoughts concerning the issue? Then no problem. So, please explain how Gorman took full responsibility for the situation?

My friend and brother then please forgive me. I'm am just taking your explanations from you initial post. Again, you posted he was trapped, this statement shifts blame. You posted it was a situation "like" Joseph and Potipher's wife? Again this statement would lead someone to think Gorman was like "innocent" Joseph. Who when was "seduced" refused then fled. Yet, you added that Gorman did "BREIFLY" have sexual relations. This was the statement that stood out like glowing molten metal. This is how I drew my conclusion. So, please let me know a clearer picture of this story?


Sorry again, but I call them like I see them. Others may allow mayhem to slither around the pulpit and call it God. But I have a wife and daughters and I must make a call when the snake or wolf is at the door. The Apostle Paul was clear about grevious Wolves coming in and not sparing the flock, also about angels of light who are messengers of Satan. I have my family and a church family. These are the people who I love and care for. If I don't tell it like it is, and someone gets hurt, when I knew the guy (or gal) were jokers then it's my fault.

So please my friend and brother give me the information on what exactly happen from Gorman's own mouth.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Where does the Bible teach that a Christian elder, an overseer, can re enter ministry after committing adultery?

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I think you are WAY off base.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

Where does it say he can't?

What if for a time he did not rule his household well? Does that disqualify him forever?

Is it not better to let God decide?

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

If one is claiming someone is authorized by God to do something, one needs Bible support for their position. Thus my question.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

http://paullundquist.blogspot.com/20...r-pastors.html

quote:

Though Christians who defend restoring randy reverends tend to frame the issue in terms of gospel grace, I think it can be shown by a simple thought experiment that grace is not the issue at all. Restoration proponents can be induced to discard their grace rhetoric in a heartbeat, I think, with very little prodding. The real issue is the severity of the sin. That's the crux. In other words, Anderson, Jenkins and Waggoner do not disagree with me about the doctrine of grace - they disagree with me about how bad adultery is. The real ground upon which this debate must be fought is not, "Can God forgive sinners?" but, "How evil is adultery?"

Here is the thought experiment. Replace the sin of adultery with a sin that you find spectacularly heinous and repulsive, and see if you still favor a full restoration to the ministry. Suppose the pastor regularly exhumed corpses from the graveyard and sexually violated them. Or suppose he kidnapped small children, starved them, maimed them, and made them believe that their parents were dead. Or suppose he framed minority men for crimes he had committed himself so that they would spend years in prison away from their families. Would you ever want such a man pastoring your church again? Of course not. But not because you doubt the power of God's grace. God's grace can redeem reprobate sinners whom we regard as hopeless. But while foul fiends of darkness can be miraculously saved, we still don't want them tucking in our kids at night.

So the question is not, "Should we show godly grace to adulterous ministers?" but, "How bad is adultery?" Do this: rank sin on a scale from 1 to 10, where "1" is being a little grumpy this morning because you haven't had your coffee, and "10" is being a chainsaw-wielding cannibal rapist Nazi pimp. Where on that scale do you put adultery? I think that Anderson, Jenkins, Waggoner et al put it at about a 3 - "Kind of bad, yes, but we can work around it." I put it at a 7 - "Disqualifyingly evil, an egregious act of selfishness and rebellion that disregards all others and thrusts a middle finger in the face of God. So no more pulpit for you, you adulterous dirtbag."

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

I rather think that if someone is going to make a claim, that in every case a minister with a moral failure can never be restored to the ministry, they would have to have scripture to back up a claim like that. So for church leadership to restore such a one after sufficient discipline would not be "unbiblical" since there is no scripture saying they should not do so.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

One more quote:

Adultery can only spring from a thoroughly corrupt heart. We all sin in various ways, and some of us fall into some sins very quickly - like when St. Peter, intending to remain faithful to Christ, realized on the night before the crucifixion that he too was in danger of being slowly tortured to death and blurted out, "I don't know him! I don't know him!" But adultery does not pop out of nowhere like that. I cannot imagine a man who regularly says his prayers, reads his Bible, walks humbly with his God, treats his wife lovingly, manages his kids with tenderness and discipline - but suddenly one night goes to bed with another woman. I deny that that is possible. A man must first walk down a long, long road of corruption, deception, narcissism, indiscipline, hypocrisy, and contemptuous disregard for all others before he could do such a thing. And all that time this beast has been shepherding a flock? That is an act too revolting to countenance. It is not to be borne.

So let the ban be permanent and absolute. Send a message of righteous fear to all wavering pastors that if they fall off this cliff, there will be no putting back the pieces and going on as before. And send a message to the world that we don't tolerate shenanigans among our clergy. Lance Armstrong will never race again in the Tour de France. Pete Rose is permanently banned from the Baseball Hall of Fame. Charles Manson will not get paroled. And cheating ministers must never be allowed in the pulpit again.

Re: "Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy
 

So if he repents, never returns to the pulpit, but bears fruit of righteousness from then on, is he still a dirtbag?