Sword at the entrance
 

Eden's garden had a sword at the entrance.

Joshua was ready to enter Canaan, and saw an angel with a sword.

Heb 4 says we must enter the rest, and mix the word with faith, because the word is a sword we require at the entrance to CUT AWAY UNBELIEF so we enter.

Joshua's day saw the unbelief die off when a whole generation of doubters died. Then Israel could enter... past the sword. Circumcision had not been undertaken for the 40 years in the wilderness, so the knife cut and removed the flesh. Joshua was told by the angel that the angel was not FOR HIM or FOR his enemy. The angel was CAPTAIN. All of these factors are related. FLESH and PRIDE and UNBELIEF must go, so we trust God to lead. Then we can enter.

The sword at the entrance means self cannot save self. God's word must cut away the unbelief in our hearts that thinks we can somehow save ourselves, and realize instead that the WORK OF THE CRoSS SAVES. Self must be denied to believe the cross saves and not our piddly two cents' worth of good works. Unless we FULLY believe in the work of the cross, we aren't getting in. So, the word is there to cut out the unbelief by preaching faith in the blood to our hearts. And that lets us enter!

The book of Revelation has the same tree of life Eden had, but it's in a city built by the Last Adam, Christ. But before all of that, Christ stands in Rev 1 with a sword coming from his mouth. That's the WORD of Christ that cuts away unbelief so we can ENTER this New Jerusalem!

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Doesn't satan also believe? What is the difference in belief and faith?

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Belief and faith is believing for the work for the cross for salvation, denying ourselves the thought we can save ourselves, and fully without wavering accept the fact HIS work on the cross saves us. Satan''s state has no room for salvation. He's patently damned. Believing our good works cannot save us is apples and oranges to the state of the devil.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Hebrews 4 falls on the heels of Hebrews 3 where we read all of Israel did not enter Canaan. And 4 begins saying we can fall as well, and the problem is failure to mix the word with faith. So, when we then read we must labour to enter the rest, the labour is the mixing of the word with faith. And the reason we are given word to encourage us to labour this mixture of the word with faith is found to be the word of God. The word of God can be relied upon since it is more alive than any sword and cuts out the very unbelief that keeps us out of the rest.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

but you have just conflated the two, when we are told that satan also believes. I'm not trying to disagree with you here, but i have noted that belief and faith are the same thing to you, when "satan also believes" tells us that there is a difference on some level. What is that difference?

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

I already said satan has no relation to this issue, since the faith in the work of the cross to save by eradicating our good works, through eradication of self-righteousness that produces good works, cannot apply to the devil.

Faith and believing are the same scripturally. You are not trying to outright disagree, but are just trying to circumvent the cross for our righteousness. You stumble at the cross. I know it's foolishness to the greek, and far from the sign the Jews require. But it's the power of GOD, not of us, unto salvation.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

The context in which Heb 4 notes the sword being the word is with the high priest to whom we go in times of need. Christ is high priest and takes LIVING SACRIFICES, who denied themselves to the ultimate by realizing they cannot save themselves by works, and cuts into the heart. The faith in the word is what lets Christ cut into our hearts. ANd the more we believe that word, the more unbelief is cut out. And this makes us truly dead to self and sin and alive unto God in very behaviour. All this concept is lost without a proper placement of the cross.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

well, i'm not sure what you mean by "faith" here, and i suspect you mean "belief." If you really have faith that the above is true, about the Word, then why discount all of those uncomfortable action phrases that i keep repeating? Iow why are They in There?

Nice op btw, not meaning to discount that. But i would like to see you more reconciled with "become like little children."

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

I discount none of the scriptures you quoted. But you do not believe me when I say that. LIke I said, all the fruit references are truth. I have never denied them. But you cannot accept it when I say none of that is possible without FIRST realizing the righteousness granted to us by the work of the cross, and our faith in that as our means of righteousness, must be in place. It's like my words disappear when you read them whenever I say the work of the cross GIVES us righteousness before we commit righteous deeds, which is what John meant. He said you know who is already made righteous by the ones who commit righteous deeds. So while I deny nothing the bible says or anything from the bible you quote, you deny every reference I make to the bible's words about the cross being the CAUSE of our righteousness.

And we become like little children by SIMPLE FAITH! In the cross -- thereby impressing no one, least of all ourselves, and easily accepting what He said without doubting! Let go of works unto righteousness and try it! It is harder to make yourself righteous than to let go and let Him make us so!

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

This is a good example of how the sword is at the entrance. Self and it's good works cannot get past. The sword must cut out the unbelief in the cross that makes us think we can somehow earn our way in there. Fruit is AFTER the horse pulls the cart, after we believe the work of God to make us righteous as a gift. And once we have that righteousness, THEN we will work. And then and then only can the entrance be ours to use. Until then, though, the sword lets us know our unbelief is not getting in. That way the fruit grows but salvation by works goes.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

now you have gone to outright eradication of good works, rather than an understanding that they are what differentiates belief and faith? You say "satan has no relation," but the Bible says "satan believes, too." How is a believer's belief any different from satan's, iow?
well, faith and belief may be used synonymously, yes; however there is a difference in believing something, and having faith in it, as satan's "belief" shows. So we are seeking how they differ, not how they are the same.
you say that, but it just may be that i am trying to hold you to a better definition of the Cross, albeit a more painful one. Otherwise how could Scripture so boldly proclaim...all those verses that bug you, culminating in a very plain "DO NOT BE DECEIVED, LITTLE CHILDREN?" without all of the caveats that we place upon salvation?

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

:highfive

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

after we believe the work of God to make us righteous as a gift. And once we have that righteousness, THEN we will work. And then and then only can the entrance be ours to use.

and how would those who know these things, and believe, yet refuse to enter be identified?

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Satan is unredeemable, it doesn't matter how much he believes he is in chains of darkness.

We are redeemable.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Shazeep believes if Satan was to have GOOD FRUITS he would be saved.

as I have always said. .. by their fruits.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Someone tell that guy that here is belief/faith and belief/acknowledgement.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

lol

Amen!

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

i agree, but that is irrelevant to the fact that satan believes. Does satan then have faith in God? He certainly believes there is only one God. So, kicking and screaming, perhaps one person here might acknowledge the difference in belief and faith, although i'm beginning to doubt it and personally don't really even care. I'm seeing that this is just another way to reveal an OP knot or something, which is why the subject is getting pulled in every direction possible to deflect from the point. So be it.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

exactly. Belief is then properly delineated from faith, even though we might use the word "belief" when "faith" is what we mean. But of course any time one gets close to an OP dichotomy, any simple understanding that should take maybe 2 posts is going to take 2 pages, and be replete with caveats. Yikes.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Satan knows there is a God , his knowledge does not come from faith or belief, but from actual experience, he was there, he does not need faith, he simply remembers.

We humans have never been there, we do need faith and belief in heaven and in God, whom we have never seen.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Right. Faith is depending upon what was SAID and SPOKEN, and trusting in it to be true without any physical evidence it is true.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Exactly why you are offkey in the POINT of this thread. The POINT is that we cannot enter the kingdom with unbelief in the work of the cross. The sword is the word that cuts away unbelief by speaking truth, but only if we believe that truth in faith. YOU got the whole thread offkey.

The issue is that the SWORD is the word of God.

Hebrews 3 teaches us that Israel went into Canaan with many of them not allowed in due to unbelief. Our journey is compared to theirs.

Hebrews 3:14-19 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? (18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? (19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So it is established that confidence and believing was required to complete their journey as it is with our journeys. THAT is the sense in which I used the term belief.

Again we are told to apply their example to us:

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

It regards ENTERING the rest. Like the ENTRANCE to the Garden, so to speak.

Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

So the belief and the faith is the idea of not doubting.

Notice the word must be mixed with faith. That's what many in Israel failed to do. It is what we must do. Mix the word with FAITH. BELIEVE.

Then we read...

Hebrews 4:11-12 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Verse 3 says we who BELIEVE enter the rest. Verse 11 says labour to enter.

And since the BELIEVING is also described as MIXING THE WORD WITH FAITH, we know this is the labour we must exert.

And after we read we must make this labour, we are told the reason:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Why would the REASON for labouring to enter the rest be the fact that the WORD is sharper than any sword? It is because the WORD is what we must mix with faith, and the WORD provides FAITH by cutting away unbelief. In other words, believe the word because it is successful in removing all unbelief that keeps us out of the rest. It discerns and knows where to cut. It knows our intentions and knows where unbelief resides. And the high priest, Jesus, wields this sword and cuts into our hearts.

This work of the high priest corresponds to the work with sacrifice in Leviticus 1.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

i was making the point in passing of the difference in belief and faith for another reason, which the denial and obfuscating has now submerged. But i forget that for many Christians, the two are synonymous; faith begins and ends with belief. Just don't forget that satan also believes, and perhaps contemplate why that verse is in there. Nice OP! There is some reflection to the sword Christ advised the Apostles to carry, but i am still puzzling over His "it is enough" reply to the physical sword, which i seriously doubt He meant in the way we read it.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Belief and faith are used in Hebrews 4 in the way I meant them. IOW, I got my use of them from the bible.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

ok well the Bible says that satan believes also, so there must be a difference, except to you i guess. Never mind the larger point, i'm pretty sure it would be impossible to ever put it across anyway.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Sigh

lol

You split hairs to the point of missing the forest. Again, Hebrews, NOT ME, say believing is what causes us to enter. Take it up with God. He inspired the word BELIEVING there, not me.

Please see why Hebrews 4 used BELIEVING in the context. That's where I got my message from and that's why I used that chapter's own terms. Take it up with God. He inspired it.

So in reality you're missing the larger picture of the whole point. You say I misuse belief, but Hebrews 4 used it! I merely repeated Heb 4's message and use of terms.

You took off on yet another wild rabbit trail! You really need to read the bible more closely.

The whole point is getting self and doubt of God's work out of our hearts, and not, "What about the devil believing?"

Why did Hebrews 4 did not deal with that?

HINT: (BECAUSE IT IS NOT RELATED TO THE POINT!!)

Heb 4:3 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:6 KJV Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 3:18 KJV And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 3:19 KJV So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

No I'm trying to show that unbelief is
what Hebrews 4 says can't enter. Again, take it up with the writer of Hebrews. you do read the bible right? Whatever Hebrews 4 meant is what I'm saying. Hebrews 4 used the word. I just used his terms. get my point?

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

unbelief there might also be termed "lack of faith." Those who cry "Lord, Lord" believe, too, so what. Faith = belief to you, and no other Scripture is relevant. Got it.

can you ever take a thread and ruin its while point into something the op never intended, and then claim the op is not getting the point when in reality you missed the original point altogether. wow

what do you think the unbelief is talking about in Hebrews 4?

I never discussed the nature of unbelief at all. you did. I never said faith and unbelief are anything. I just said Hebrews 4 tells us to have faith and believe.

how on earth you twisted that to have me say no other scripture is relevant regarding faith and unbelief can only be found in your mind somewhere.

shazeep I got you pinned. I know now how you work. you make something up in your mind about someone and forever believe it. whether it's right or not. then when anyone says something about what they believe, and it contradicts your created opinion, you dismiss it as though it was never said in order to retain your opinion.

like. .. you conclude I believe fruit doesn't matter and only a confession and lip service is good enough. Then when I say it's what God sees in the heart that alone matters, and fruit must follow any confession, you turn around and say. .. "so, you believe fruit doesn't matter and lip service is good enough."

lol

weird but unfortunately a reality.

and thanks for ruining the thread with junk that is unrelated.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

Earth calling planet Shazeep, Earth calling planet Shazeep.

Please respond with something that makes sense.
We can not read your garbled message.
Please respond in English our semi-official language.

Earth calling planet Shazeep, Earth calling planet Shazeep.

Beep Beep, Beep Beep

He turns every post I make into an imaginary "fruit doesn't matter" issue, even though I denied fruit doesn't matter a dozen times. I could Talk about dinosaurs and he'd take that and say I am saying fruit doesnt matter, and that I'm saying every other scripture doesn't matter.

lol

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

well, i originally meant to contribute a related thought about faith, why i don't know, but hey, at least you and Flamer are on the same page. Not sure what fruit has to do with this, maybe the flame can tell us.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

if you might just point to which sentence is unclear to you, i will do my best to clarify, ok?

unbelief there might also be termed "lack of faith."
Those who cry "Lord, Lord" believe, too, so what.
Faith = belief to you, and no other Scripture is relevant. Got it.

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

shazeep I got you pinned. I know now how you work. you make something up in your mind about someone and forever believe it

btw this is hilarious in the face of 3 pages of your dithering to avoid admitting a Scriptural truism, for what possible reason i still cannot discern, except that it might require you to actually do something with your brain-dead belief. Have a nice gay.

How about dealing with the point of the thread?

Re: Sword at the entrance
 

well, that would direct me to bring up other Scripture, and you don't seem to be too receptive there. So how bout you cough up a hairball, and bat it around with FZ.