Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

This issue has popped up so many times, I cannot keep number, and is the favourite ploy of the unsaved who know nothing of Scripture. So, I am surprised it pops up here.

Judging.

So many say we JUDGE others, when Jesus said not to do so, whenever someone says "___ is lost."

Here's the favourite verse thereby taken out of context:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

The ACTUAL context is understood with the entirety of the issue in mind:

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

When you read it ALL, it says the judgment you mete will be meted back onto you again. In other words, if you have something in your eye and you tell someone else about something in their eye, you judged that person for your own problem. In fact, you did worse, because you not only have something in your own eye, but you pointed it out to another when that same one was silent with you.

This means you have to have victory over something that you claim another has a problem with. IT DOES NOT MEAN you are not to point out problems in others. Just don't do it if you have the same problem.

It actually gives you allowance to point out a problem so long as you don't have it yourself.

Furthermore, Paul stated we are intended to judge people who claim to be in the church.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

He said those in the church are intended to be judged by believers. Otherwise he would not tell them to cast out the unrepentant fornicator Those outside the church God judges.

Now, when it comes to saying an entire religion's adherents are lost, some claim that is judging. No it's not. The word of God judged them.

Judging is contriving and creating your own criteria for salvation, and thereby determining who is lost and saved. When the bible laid out the criteria and stated disbelief in it or lack of adherence to it means one is lost, then repeating that statement to those who distinctly deny adherence to the biblical criteria are lost is not judging them, but only repeating what the bible said.

Again, judging is when you create the criteria, not when you cite bible where the criteria is plainly laid out.

Now, what I will say next will not be addressed by those who make this claim that we judge. Watch and see:

If it was still judging, and therefore wrong, for a believer to say a certain religious movement is entirely lost because they patently deny what the bible says is necessary for salvation, then we could never fulfil this command from the Lord.

Exekiel 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

When people say we cannot say muslims or hindus or buddhists are lost, because that is judging them, that's like saying we cannot cry out to people as watchmen and warn them of their anger!

Imagine them responding to you and saying, "You're judging me! You said I'm in danger. That's judging me!"

How is that not the case?

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

And you have the right to judge for you also write well!

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Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

:lol

3. Jealousy motivates judging (Matt 7:1), maligning (Jas 3:14), and revenge (Rom 12:19; Deut 32:35; Heb 10:30), which violate Grace.

http://www.biblenews1.com/define/jealousy.htm

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

Where is jealousy in reading:

Ezek 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

...and believing we need to warn those who obey not the gospel to obey it lest they be lost?

Nothing to do with jealousy.

lol

Where is maligning in that? Is it maligning to obey Ezek 3 and warn people?

Where is revenge in obeying Ezek 3?

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

Ezek 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Notice the details.

God made MAN a watchman. God tells people to give people warning from Him. When HE SAYS to the wicked to turn from this wicked way, so his life can be saved, AND SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD WHO IS TOLD TO WARN DOES NOT warn, then the victim's blood is on that person's hands.

Those who claim it is judging people to tell them they are lost if they do not obey the gospel are giving a right for the victim in danger to not listen to the warning! Such a victim is enabled by such a person to accuse the watchman of judging!

"You cannot tell me I am in danger. You're judging me!"

This perspective is so subtle and yet so obvious in other ways, and there is no defence USING THAT PASSAGE for these folks to say otherwise.

You're enabling people to not heed the warning and rephrasing it all to accuse watchmen of being judges, in order to make their warnings go unheeded. And THAT, folks, is something to be fearful of for the time we all stand before God.

Again, someone show me otherwise using this passage and how this passage is not saying what I claim.

See, all this reasoning and conjecture, and claim of judging, cannot stand the scrutiny of actual scriptural discussion. So the bible and what it actually says in context is never touched. Folks love taking a verse or two out of context. But when someone says, "Let's talk context and deal with the overall writing," these folks flee!

Talk about philosophy and opinion, apart from scripture, and they'll talk hours. Pages of debate. But point to one little verse and say let's really study this in light of the overall biblical message, and they're gone.

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ok well you are in danger, and i have done my best. But i will let you get back to your mutual admiration society thing. Have a nice day.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

See? You cannot deal with Ezekiel 3. You can't and you won't. Actual discussion with the bible ruins your created philosophy that claims it's bible based. Have a nice day, as well!

And you are dealing with God on this one. Not me. It's His word. I ask how your view does not violate Ezekiel 3 and you cannot answer. Typical. Expected, too. But you can face God on that one yourself.

Mutual admiration? Where? lol A person cannot really be that blind that Ezekiel 3 is violated to this extent, can they? Old, judgmental Ezekiel must have made that one up!

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People usually play the "don't judge me" card because they're worried about what other people think of their actions.

They don't honestly care what God thinks. If they did, their actions would actually be different.

Playing the judge card often is a sign of unbelief meant to protect the user from realizing their fear of being disapproved of by humanity. God is very rarely actually in their thoughts.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

I also find that recent accusations of judging are made completely apart from the actual points we are making when we are being accused. It's like the points we make are ignored, put out of mind, and the initial feeling of sensing condemnation and judgment is maintained after it originally came to a twisted version of the scriptures that makes them out to say it does not matter what we believe so long as we are sincere and seeking to do good. Whenever that misconception of our points (and actually the bible's points) are laid out, they're ignored, avoided and once again put out of mind, so the original misconception is maintained.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

But I insist the mindset and paradigm behind these recent accusations make the command of the Lord for us to be watchman completely impossible for us to fulfilled. This shows the dark counterfeit of truth exposed for what it really is.

Notice God gave words to the prophet to warn people in danger. God did not directly intend tell the people in danger themselves. He used a "watchman."

zek 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

God gives warning to the watchman to give to others.

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life;

God speaks to these others, but the watchman is the avenue of relating that message to them. It is the watchman's responsibility to relate that warning. This is where our recent critics twist the picture and claim nobody has the right to speak warning to others, but should heed warning for themselves. It's the concept that says none of us should warn anyone else of anything. The bible is allegedly supposed to be something we take for ourselves and ourselves only, and we're not meant to apply any of it to anyone other than ourselves.

the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Failure to warn others of the danger they're in leaves the watchman guilty for that other one's destruction and lost state of soul. But this is what the recent criticism accomplishes in the fate of the watchman. According to these critics, who insist we should not warn anyone else of the plight they're in since they believe that's not the nature of the bible, everyone who knows truth would be guilty for those whose souls are lost, for such criticism disables watchmen from performing this divine;y directed duty.

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Again, keep in mind God is not directly talking to those in danger, but chose to speak to them with warning by way of these watchmen. That is simply a non-existent situation in the work of God in the minds of recent critics.

20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

In these interesting words, we almost get the sense that God lays stumblingblocks before sinners and demands that we are the means by which they are recovered. I';m not here to analyze that so much as the fact that the entire effort to give them warning is effectively cancelled and thrown to the wind by recent criticism that claims we set ourselves up as judges when we relate that warning, for only God can give them this warning. We find the actual intention of God is to warn others through us. God has given the judgment that they're in danger, and it is not the watchmen who are judges at all.

But critics here cry, "Don't judge me! You're judging me when you tell me I am in danger because of my beliefs. All you watchmen are self-admiring club members, who don't see the beam in your own eyes. You have no right to tell me I am in danger! I won't listen to anyone but God Himself. Stop judging me. LALALALALA, I plug my ears to your alleged warnings and cannot hear you! LALALALALA."

21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Here we find the will of God for the conclusion of the purpose of having watchmen.

This entire concept of taking God;'s word and giving warning to those whom it claims, not who the watchmen claims, is moot and void and effectively nullified to having no meaning nor place of existence in the recent criticism that we're hearing here.

So, again, how is the act of taking scriptures such as, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned," and telling people who won't believe (let alone are not baptized, for who would get baptized if they don't believe) that they're lost and will wind up damned to be the act of violating the will of God, when God gives us a concept as Ezekiel 3 relates?

Folks, don't heed these recent liberal-minded criticisms, that are more akin to the world's spirit right now as it claims homosexuality is not a sin and we actually hate them if we say it is. It's the same reasoning that says we cannot restrict men's restrooms to biologically born males or else we are hateful and judgmental. Just change the terms that end with the suffix phobe and phobic with judgementalism and you have the same spirit of modern nonsensical criticism of religion as a whole in the world that feels morality, as they define it, is not an issue any more. SAME SPIRIT!

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

The Amalekites know their fate, they just want Israel to fuggeddaboudit.

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I better not say amen, or else be accused of mutual-admiration. Ah well, another biblical statement obliterated.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

look, you are in mortal danger, and if you don't find Christ--the real one, that assures us "forgive, and you will be forgiven,"--then there is no hope for you. As you keep mentioning, we have a duty to our peers, who are not on the other side of the planet, but right here among us; so what would you have me do?

You will reap what you sow; which you demonstrate that you have no faith in when you go around saying that people you don't know, Mother Teresa, are doomed to hell. Now i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings, but you need help, and you have become so adept at deflecting that leading you to any of the numerous gordian knots that constitutes your beliefs doesn't seem to be working, which i guess also sounds mean or whatever but really, try answering a question for a change if you don't like it, or wear the shoe, i don't care.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

So, why again is Mother Teresa lost? And could you answer in a paragraph or less, without burying me in, well, you know, bull-puckey?

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

No one here is saying we are not forgiving anyone. Where is that coming from? Unless you mean we should forgive them for disobeying the word of God and treat them like they're saved. But the bible says they're lost, not us.

It's got nothing to do with whether we know these people or not. It has to do with whether or not they believe in their hearts, that only God can see, that the work of the cross grants us righteousness, and we cannot gain that without that death of Jesus.

All that sounds good when you ignore actual biblical teachings about the entire gamut of salvation. But you run when we talk about that.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

i never ran anywhere, you just bored me to death, possibly. answer the question.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

I never said anything about her.

I do know the catholic church does not teach that the work of the cross makes us righteous in and of itself, before we lift a finger to do anything. I never said anything about Mother Theresa, though. It's not about individuals. It's about belief systems that deny the work of the cross toward righteousness.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

You always run when context of scripture is discussed. Who are you trying to kid?

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

Well, not only can readers imagine how you talk and what words you use outside of the forum political correctness you use, with that epithet, but all I did was take Ezekiel 3 and explain how the word of God tells us to be watchmen on the wall by telling them what God says about their danger. I guess we also know what you think of scripture!

I mean what words are on your mind when you type these things?

I guess God knows. And He's all that matters in the end.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

you said Catholics were all lost, and i said M. Teresa, at which point you got really quiet, so ya, you never said anything about her all right. So, with all the backing up and blather stripped out, we have

It's not about individuals. It's about belief systems that deny the work of the cross toward righteousness.

now, i'm now convinced that the last person on earth who should be talking about any work of the cross is you, but since you pretend to be a seeker after God, let's just go with this. Unfortunately, in your superiority-coma you apparently have not realized that Muslims and Catholics are individuals, and that we have already been over this, the difference in condemning religion v condemning an individual, which is also why i have been telling you that you, personally, are in jeopardy, and as far as i know most OPs are fine, because even if they are a bunch of Jim Crows at least they have the sense to keep quiet about it until they get to the kkk meeting or whatever.

So now you are saying that if people pick the wrong religion, belief system, whatever, they go to hell; do i have that right?

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

yes, yes, because you love Jesus, and so referring to one of your paper-over jobs means i must hate Jesus, right? How bout we stick to the questions for now.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

My point that you so tactfully avoided was that the GENERAL BELIEF is what makes them lost. And I never named Theresa out. You did. You try to make it personal, when it is objective and about what we believe.

Of course, because the words form the bible that deal with the cross and faith and salvation are things you avoid talking about and when cornered say you have no clue what they mean. It's not me you have a problem with . It's the word of God. That's why when I try to get you away from MY opinion and point to the word you scoot.

It's about beliefs in comparison with the Word of God,

Does their religion determine whether they're lost or not? OBVIOUSLY! lol.

Religion is what a person believes as far as spirituality and damnation or salvation are concerned. And you say THAT DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING about their eternal destinies?

But you act like a hypocrite about this anyway, because I showed you how a Muslim told me I was lost because I believed Jesus is the begotten Son of God and that He is God manifest in flesh, when I said NOTHING to him about whether he was lost or not, and I said NOTHING to him except what I posted on this forum for all to read. you excused him but crucified, ironically, me.

Hypocrisy!

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

How about talking actual bible instead of our opinions? Okay? Oh, right, you run from such chats.

See ya later. You are trolling again.

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Given recent considerations from recent chats, consider religion.

It has here been espoused that religion does not matter, and that implies one can be saved regardless of their religion. What is a religion? It is a set of beliefs regarding spirituality concerning God or deity in self, depending on the religion itself. Followers of a religion are indeed followers of it because they choose to agree with the set of beliefs that religion teaches. Now, the bible said a certain set of beliefs must be believed IN THE HEART (where only God can see) in order to be saved. So, when Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that beleiveth not shall be damned," He was not saying whatever you believe, ensure you believe in it sincerely and thereby be saved. lol. No. We have to learn what beliefs he referred to and ensure we believe them, or else we're lost.

It's not what I claim beliefs should be, but what the Lord and apostles claimed we should believe. And this nonsense that says reading their words causes us to twist them and repetition of their words is simply giving one's opinion is actually trying to make you think that you cannot know truth unless you cast away all plain statements and consider them as vague unknowable teachings. In short, just make the overall Word of God of none effect.

All I can do is teach what I honestly believe the word is saying, without any agenda behind it, and encourage everyone who hears me to check with the bible and see if what I said lines up with the word, and not to listen to me if they find it is not what the word is saying in their honest estimation. But what we've seen here of late is simply my words being incompatible with an opinion predetermined aside from scripture, that's read into scripture, leaving verses that such an opinion does not agree with to be considered as unknowable. That's not honest.

Jesus clarified what he meant by believing on Him when in John 17:20 he prayed for everyone who wold believe on him through the apostles' word. In other words, what the apostles, along with His teachings, related, are what we must believe. And if a religion is not based on the apostles' teachings in connection with Christ's, that religion is causing souls to be lost.

And religion doesn't matter?

Can it get any more insane that saying religion doesn't matter when it comes to salvation? For those who think truth is arbitrary, no. But not to anyone else.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

so, at least we have the difference in belief and faith cleared up; except possibly for those whose faith never got any larger than their beliefs. I believe i will walk on streets of gold; but if that ends up being some spiritual metaphor and i never do, that will not affect my faith.
yes, but the feeling is mutual, so that ultimately is just not productive, Mike. let's try to stick to simple q/a ok?

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ok, now we are getting somewhere, perhaps

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You're trolling S. See ya.

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Nope. You won;t talk bible, and then you lie and say you do and i refuse to answer. When I ask what it was you referred to in the bible so we can chat, suddenly more silence.

You're trolling. See ya.

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Um, well i never said truth was arbitrary, and boy do i have some news for you :lol

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Religion doesn't matter and you say truth is not arbitrary?

LOL

You want to ask questions? Then give scripture and ask about them. Or, nope. You thrive outside the bible with bible-less opinions,. But you run away from scripture.

Go ahead. Good Samaritan perhaps? "Be not deceived"? Come on and ask about scripture.

Ezekiel 3 is a good place to start! How about it?

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Jesus loves you, too, Mike, and i'm sorry i have been poking you so hard, but you are a good guy trapped in a really vicious dogma, and i hope you come to see that i just want you to read the Bible for yourself.

Religion doesn't matter when it comes to salvation, and if that is what you have gotten from Scripture then let me suggest that if you seek it you will find it, which sounds trite but surely you would agree that you are predisposed to not see this in your reading; it is you that must dispose yourself here. Read a version you have never read, maybe, even a weird one, that seems to help. Break the spell.

i mean, i could give you like 100 Scriptures that will tell you that your religion will not save you (just ask a Jew :lol), which is what i've been trying to do; but coming from me just won't be as good as some other route at this point, i guess.

Anyone else believe religion = salvation? You can surely get better perspectives than mine anyway.

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Religion is not salvation. Religion is a set of beliefs. You twist my words and intents. You won't have to apologize if you just stop taking what I say and assuming the worst. lol

I never said religion is salvation. You said religion does not matter. Religion is a set of beliefs. You are saying sets of beliefs do not matter. Unless religions is something else to you.

You have insulted me more than anyone on this forum. But I am not concerned over that. I am wanting to simply talk bible. I got my views from the bible. Many of them no one taught me because many of the scriptures no one talked about. I simply intensely studied the bible and learned these things, and sought out other teachers and had them help me with the same scriptures, and found we agreed! It's like what Paul did with the apostles in Galatians. It's what we all should do.

But give any excuse you want for not talking bible. It's open for any to join in and chime in with agreement or disagreement and discussion. It's the best way to chat. But you won't. Sir, you did not even know why Israel was said to not have mixed the word with faith after seeing miracles in Egypt, and you say I am predisposed to believing certain things? I guess it's all you've known and never met those many who actually got their teaching from the Word without any predisposition, causing them to change their beliefs. So you think everyone does that. Actual discussion of hte word allows you to point out what flawed predisposition is present if I have any, but you won't do it to even deal with that. I think I know why. Your words cannot stand actual biblical scrutiny. Not my scrutiny. Actual biblical scrutiny.

So see ya! Have a great day!

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well, if you are not saying that salvation depends upon finding the right religion then please restate that without all the drama, and we'll go from there. You insulted billions of people, and make it very difficult to claim being a Christian, so let's please just slog on ok

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The bible made that judgment not me. Why do you kill the messenger for relating the message given by the author?

Salvation depends upon believing the truth of the cross for righteousness apart from our good works. And you ask me to say what salvation depends upon after I've said that three dozen times to you? lol

But while you're still not talking bible, why do you think religion does not matter (not to say it saves) when religion is a set of beliefs about God that either agree with the Bible or not?

But again I'm not interested in your philosophizing. Let's talk WORD!!!!!!!!!!!

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Religion has become a bad word. But only to those who don't have any...

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Right, Esaias,

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



Anyway, everyone, what about Ezekiel? I know it's WORD and pesky BIBLE, but the thread is about that in relation to accusations of judging.

Zeep, stop avoiding the elephant in the room! :D

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i would say that religion is man's attempts to reach God, but even if your idea of religion differs you surely grasp from Scripture that it is not religion that determines your salvation.

Re: Elephant in the room - accusation of judging
 

does anyone outside your sect of OP get saved or not, Mike.