Are all Catholics lost?
 

post your reasoning if you like. i submit that all Catholics are not lost despite any interpretations of any verses that you may hold, and i think i have about 100 Scriptures that would support this.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Shazeep, reconcile these passages.

"And because of their (the Jews) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger- they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise."

...when the bible says:

Joh 19:17-18 KJV And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: (18) Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Rom 6:6 KJV Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It makes a point.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

please just enter your reasoning for why all Catholics are lost, if you would, ty. and you may as well vote, even up the score, love a good contest, what? :)

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

It's not as simple as that. That's a stacked deck. ;) So, please answer my question. Ty.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

? please. you have the floor. you have asserted that all Catholics, along with hordes of other unwashed, are lost. state your case already. and please don't fill the page with proof, ty.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

all catholics are not lost because those who do righteousness will be called righteous. there. like that.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Acts 2:38 is a list of things that are between GOD AND THE PERSON.

Repent: God must hear the person indicate to Him that one's ways are turning around, and seeking forgiveness FROM GOD. If it's not in the heart, the outward words mean NOTHING.

Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: GOD must see the heart believe that one is being buried with Christ into Christ's death with actual and genuine faith. As the blood remits sins, so baptism is said to remit sins. Both BLOOD and BAPTISM point to the death of JESUS. So, GOD must see the heart that actually believes one is being immersed into that death on the cross. That's what Jesus meant when He said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Without the BELIEF the ACTIVITY is useless and void.

And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost: Only God can give the Holy Ghost. People can fake it and fake tongues. And many have. But God alone gives the genuine Holy Ghost. And it occurs when a person's spirit is born of God.

All these three elements require genuine faith in God THAT ONLY GOD CAN SEE. Each of them can be faked. But that does not do away with the fact that the genuine experience of each them is vital for salvation.

Having said all of that, anyone can go through these motions and FAKE it all. And that means God saw NO saving faith involved in any of it if it's been faked by a person. We can see the outward activity being obeyed. But we cannot see the heart. But the fact remains those three elements are commanded in the Bible and must be carried out with genuine faith for salvation.

When someone goes through those steps, if they faked it that's their problem not mine. We all have enough sense to know the ultimate judgment comes from GOD AND NOT US. AND if God never saw the genuine faith required to make those three elements efficacious, then the person is lost.

And just because they can be faked, and just because many went through the motions alone, does not mean entire religious movements are saved without going through those three elements of genuine faith-filled obedience. Entire religious movements DO NOT TEACH faith in baptism, since these are the ones that baptize infants. Entire religious movements refuse to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. These movements do not believe you speak in tongues when the Spirit fills a person as it did in the book of Acts.

It's not lack of going through motions at an altar that makes them lost. People can act out Acts 2:38 at an altar and remain lost. So, that shoots down you repeated nonsense you've been accusing me of in lying manners for months now, despite my repeated statements I do not look at activity at the altar. But just because people can ACT out those steps in faked obedience, and be lost, that still does not mean entire religious movements who fully avoid and do not follow through in genuine faith with these three elements God requires are saved. two wrongs don't make a right.

So, when we point to Acts 2:38 and ask these religious adherents if they did that for salvation, and they say NO, then they are lost.

And if they say they DID those three steps, but had no genuine faith required of God in each of them, they are just as lost as a faking OP who went through motions at an altar.

It's not a matter of having the correct words spoken over them at baptism. It's a matter of obeying the word of God and speaking what the word of God said to speak at baptism. It's as serious an issue to speak the name of Jesus in invocation as it is when casting out a demon. the name of Jesus has POWER.

Do people miss the same thing people in Acts missed by saying it's a mere matter of words being said and words don't matter??

Act 3:16 KJV And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Shazeep, do you believe it is a valid baptism for an infant ot be baptized?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

What does it mean to say those who do righteousness are righteous? What's that say about how they became righteous?

Do you believe faith is required when we are baptized in order to be saved?

Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Shazeep: you only need about three verses, without contradiction,
to prove your claim. They are the scriptures that relate to the gospel
that saves!
You also need to differentiate between the souls of man, and all those
institutions that pretend to proclaim truth.

Now this:
There are only three "religions" in the world: the many gods religion,
who really are heathens; the no god(s) religion, who are atheists; and
the ONE GOD religion.
There are only TWO churches. The True Church, called out by the Lord
Jesus Christ; and the false church, which is every other "church".

And how can anyone know the true from the false? By this one scripture,
which is attested by the rest of the Bible: "There is no other NAME under
heaven, given among men, in which we must be saved."

Any other name is by the spirit of the anti-christ!

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

You don't even know what catholics believe, but you know who's saved and who's lost?

Who made you the arbiter of who is saved and who is lost, anyway?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

The Catholic Catechism For Adults on page 52 says,

"Can you learn to save your soul just by reading the Bible? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught."

The Faith of Millions, on pages 153-154:

"The Bible does not contain all the teaching of the Christian religion, nor does it formulate all the duties of its members."

The Catechism For Adults on page 10:

"How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church."

The Catechism For Adults on page 56:

"Why can't the Catholic Church ever teach error? Because Jesus promised to be always with His Church to protect it from error."

The book, "My Catholic Faith" says on page 144:

"Jesus Christ promised to preserve the Church from error."

On page 145, it says,

"Jesus Christ commanded all men to listen to and obey the Church, under pain of damnation. If His Church can teach error then He is responsible for the error, by commanding all to obey."

On page 54 the Catechism For Adults:

"Does everyone have to obey the Catholic Church? Yes, because she alone has the authority of Jesus to rule and to teach."

James Cardinal Gibbons, a Catholic Archbishop said in "The Faith of Our Fathers", p. 82:

"Jesus our Lord, founded but one Church, which He was pleased to build on Peter. Therefore, any church that does not recognize Peter as its foundation stone is not the Church of Christ, and therefore cannot stand, for it is not the work of God."

"Answer Wisely," by Martin J. Scott says on p. 49:

"The pope, therefore, as vicar of Christ, is the visible head of Christ's kingdom on earth, the Church, of which Christ Himself is the invisible head."

The book Father Smith Instructs Jackson, by John F. Noll and Lester J. Fallon, on page 42 says:

"According to the will of Christ, all its members profess the same faith, have the same worship and Sacraments, and are united under the one and same visible head, the Pope."

Comments, Shazeep?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

i never said i knew anything, Esaias. I am fairly familiar with Catholic doctrine, which i mostly disagree with at several points, infant baptism, etc, but of course the verses i would quote are the ones that give--or should give--any arbiter pause in their condemnation. Yes, there are plenty of legalities to disagree over. "Righteousness" might be defined as doing those church-works that you hold sacred, i would not disagree. So, i have 99 to go.

10This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

i think this is the point; Catholic doctrine is different from a Catholic person, who may have a pure heart regardless of doctrine.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

you are presenting valid objections to Catholic doctrine, but not justifications for condemning an individual who identifies as Catholic imo.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

If people believe those doctrinal truths, that makes them catholics. They would not be catholics if they did not believe those doctrinal statements. So, the doctrine is what makes the person a a catholic. So, if you believe those doctrinal statements are valid arguments against catholicism, then what does that say about people who believe those statements?

Put it this way:

Do you believe that people who hold those beliefs stated in those doctrines are saved?

You see, this is what you have been missing all along in my arguments. It's not PEOPLE that are the issue. It is DOCTRINE. BELIEF. And those who hold BELIEFS contrary to the word are in violation of salvation. You don't agree? You keep trying to make it about people, but the whole reason anyone is lost is not because of their person, but because of their BELIEF that violates the Word. That's the reason I have been saying it's not a sect, but rather what the bible says and whether or not we agree with the bible. the bible makes statements that directly contradict the doctrines I listed. So how can a person be saved if they believe a doctrine the bible contradicts?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

but this does not allow for a believer who attends the church that feels most comfortable to them, or maybe even the church of most convenience if they dont drive, or many other scenarios one might envision wherein one is attending a church while not necessarily agreeing with every doctrine of that church.

But to answer your question, about what to say about those who believe those statements, my answer would be to say nothing. People change their minds, and these might be just something that God is not dealing with them on yet. Or whatever. There is no scenario in which you might justifiably proclaim anyone lost or saved, as no one has held out to the end yet that is still living, and your countenance should not be varying between those you consider chosen and those you consider lost anyway--you are supposed to be reflecting love to people, and demonstrating your beliefs, but instead you make a mockery of them by denigrating other sinners, and calling them lost when you do not know, because you think you have some Scripture to point to.

hasn't the gay thing coming to your church penetrated yet? You might like to characterize that as satan running rampant, but i suspect it is God's judgement for an unsaintly attitude. I see that you are back to pointing out what i am missing up there again, so i am done here. Doctrines are mostly yack lawyers invent to talk about Christ because they have no clue how to reflect Him imo.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Who said we should find a church comfortable for us? We are not meant to choose what feels good to us, but a church that preaches what the bible teaches. It's not a feel-good issue when it concerns salvation. We don't find a church that adapts itself to our feelings, but a church that adapts itself to what the bible teaches.

When there are limitations as to were we can go for church, the [point is not so much the church, but is what we personally believe. I've recommended people go to churches that were available to them when those churches did not have what we consider full truth. So, the point is, it's what we believe in our hearts that God sees. Not the label over the door.

And you're specifically asking about Catholics, hence Catholic churches. If a person agrees with catholic doctrine, then, and then only, are they actually catholic people. If for some odd reason they attend a catholic church, but do not believe the doctrines the catholic church stands for, then the person is not catholic whether they attend a catholic church or not.

Again, it is agreement with the doctrine of the catholic church that makes one a catholic. If a person does not agree with the doctrine, then the person is not catholic.

That was not part of the question. Anyone can change their mind at any given moment. but for the moment while they believe those doctrines, are they saved should they drop dead at that second? An atheist is lost at this moment in time he is an atheist. He can be saved LATER if he changes and has faith. But the whole point I am referring to is the moment when a person believes something for the time being, whether or not they change later in time.

Are you thinking we may now and forever, when we say a souls is lost? That's not what I've been saying at all. I am talking about for the moment in time right now. It's a given no one is doomed without any choice to LATER be saved if they are not save at this moment in time. It seems that's not a given to you in these discussions. So, please keep that in mind.

So, if a person dropped dead while believing those doctrines, are they bound for glory? Any time I deal with who is lost or who is saved that is the point I am making.

In THAT SENSE I AGREE. But that is not what I have been saying when speaking of who is lost or saved. And I already quoted Paul saying that certain people were SAVED while in this life in that moment in time and space.

This is a chat forum and is not everyday life and does not reflect what goes on in everyday life as a believer. This is a forum where details are often discussed that have little activity in everyday life. Even the things I preach in our church are not what I discuss here on this forum, because they're two very severely different venues and places in life. Do you get up and everyday of your life ask people if Catholics are all lost or saved?

I am mocking nobody because PEOPLE are not my objective when discussing doctrine. You keep making it about people and persons, even myself. But I am being objective and simply discussing this issue you raised.

See? Talk bible and actual details and you run and hide. You brought the issue up here and started this thread. Why do you always run and hide when objective issues are discussed. Why do you like talking about persons and people all the time? It's not about people. It's about beliefs.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

any catholic who has repented of their sins, been baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is saved.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Right. But then they're not catholic.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

LOL
:yourock

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

A Catholic is someone who believes these statements:

"...the Church has infallibly defined as follows:

" There is but one universal ["Catholic" means universal] Church of the faithful, outside which NO ONE at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

" We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull, Unam Sanctum, 1302.)

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

" These infallible declarations of the Popes are part of what was once commonly referred to as the dogma, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus -- Outside the Church there is no salvation. Dogmas are revealed truths by God through the Church's Magisterium. Truth cannot change. This dogma is key, because without it, there would be no need to evangelize. This dogma embraces everything that is of absolute necessity for salvation and which can only be found in the one True Church of Jesus Christ, The Catholic Church: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacraments and Priesthood to administer them.

" Do away with this one dogma and the Church has no claim to universal authority over all men on behalf of Jesus Christ.

"The dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus cannot change..."

"'Outside the Church there is no salvation' is a solemnly declared dogma which has always been believed and taught by the Church. Were this not so, it could never have been defined ex cathedra in the first place, for no Pope can declare something to be true unless it has always been true, if only recognized implicitly, such as the Immaculate Conception."

So, Shazeep, you should ask A catholic who stands by these statements if they believe everyone except catholics are lost.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

i would argue that they are not, if for no other reason than that they have not held out to the end; neverminding your likely unScriptural interpretation of speaking in tongues, wadr. If that works for you, then great, be sure in your own mind; but that is your doctrine, that you will be judged by, not theirs, which they have a right to. Let them seek their own salvation.

My personal doctrine is that baptism in Christ's Name is a baptism of fire, and i doubt that even makes sense to anyone here, similar to "holding out to the end." What do you guys think, this means you must hold on to your doctrines until you die? :lol but you know what? even if you do think that is what that means, so what? it's an interesting point for discussion, and maybe another doctrine could come out of it to divide people more, and for lawyers to argue about, but as far as how any belief in this area would alter how one is supposed to treat other people, it is as valuable as any other doctrine, which is to say not.

If you have to grill a Catholic before determining if you can consider them equal to you or not, you have prolly missed the point imo. You certainly close yourself off from the Catholic deemed lost, and could not learn anything from them that they had to show you, simply by assuming a superior position--"Any Catholic who has not done these things, that i found in Scripture so i must be right, is lost." You are fooling yourself imo.

If you seek where you agree, and dont bring up the doctrines that you have in conflict, which will not affect your daily interactions with your neighbor one iota--unless they do, which is on you--your doctrines will assume their rightful place, which is in your heart, for you to believe, whether anyone else believes them or not. If i am wrong, then someone please witness the first bite of fruit gained from one of your pet doctrines, Oneness, say. Aside from dividing you from Trinnies, what has this done for you?

So it is all very good to say what you did, there is even Scripture for it, but i would beware how this changes your heart, and if this turns people into projects for you, to be worked on for their improvement, don't be surprised when you walk into a room and it empties; no one needs that kind of help. This is not reflecting Christ, imo, but feeding one's ego. Of course i mean this generally speaking, not directed at you Ferd.

If Love conquers all, then why not make that your doctrine?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

So, Shazeep, you should ask A catholic who stands by these statements if they believe everyone except catholics are lost.

i would never do that, because i do not care a whit what some Catholic lawyer tells me about their doctrines, and a humble Catholic would not belabor me with them. I am not fearful about Catholics, or Muslims; i fear hypocrites if i fear anything.

The central point might be that whatever their answer would be, God is not required to pay them any attention anyway, same as for you. You can say all Catholics are lost all you like--how many Catholics have perished due to your proclamation? How many Catholics have been swayed to change their mind based upon your opinion, do you think? So then, what has this utterance, this belief of yours and others, served to do? It has only accomplished one thing--to out you as judgemental, which quoting Christ's contrasting message of forgiveness and love to your consternation just verifies--or bam witness how this position has improved your or anyone else's life, and i will apologize.

All you have done is make enemies of friends, as near as i can tell. And you would react no differently if the shoe were on the other foot. Understand with the same measure you use, it will be measured out to you. You are flouting a spiritual principle to uphold a doctrine of men, which all have some basis in Scripture. It is you who is lost, the moment you look down on the Catholic, which includes 'helping' them 'see their error,' which always involves a doctrinal discussion, and never seems to involve doing the right thing in daily life. A pox on your doctrines--which btw is exactly what you got. If doctrine is supposed to make you so much better, why are you so much worse? Speaking generally of course; i don't think you are a bad person at all, for the record.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

as this is a sensitive subject, your vote will not be audited, and will remain anonymous.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Shaz, do you even know any catholics?

I do. Family, even.

You have no idea what you're babbling about.

As usual.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

could you be more specific? ty

i'm actually still in Orlando, in a lapsed Catholic home at the moment, an Italian friend; but i'm missing the point there i guess. I used to volunteer at Catholic Charities, so yes i have known a few Catholics. As long as we avoided doctrine we got along fine. None of them seemed anxious for me to point out the error of their ways, and beyond repeated invitations to their church, religion actually rarely...never came up. They even helped any Wiccans who came in asking, what do you think of that? :D

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Did Jesus say " be ye nice, and enter into eternal life" ?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

you must interpret love your neighbor fulfills all the law and the prophets for yourself, EB, but i don't think 'being nice' is too far off the mark as you are reflected to others, iow as how others will see you, especially considering the fruit of the gifts of the spirit; these would all be qualities that we would ascribe to a 'nice' person would we not? Be hard on yourself. If 'nice' is a synonym for 'kind,' then yes, give me a nice person over someone pedantically and obnoxiously 'correct' every time.

God’s Righteous Judgment

1Therefore, any one of you, who judges is without excuse. For when you judge another, you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things. 2We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth. 3Do you really think — anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same — that you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you despise the riches of His kindness..?

how much plainer could it be?

and become one to another kind, tender-hearted, forgiving one another,
according as also God in Christ did forgive you.

The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the
love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up

Instead, he must be kind to everyone. He must be a good teacher.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

if you are beating people up over 50 cents--this deathly dwelling on others' sins--when you have been forgiven a jillion dollars, dont be surprised when your debt is called in. God will not be mocked. Call people you have never met lost all you like, despite Scripture, but you are playing with fire. You think you have found a passage to use against others, little realizing the passages that now apply to you. Instead, he must be kind to everyone. He must be a good teacher. Telling someone they are lost is hardly kind now, is it.

Only one true church, and it happens to be the exact doctrine you believe, and every one else is a phony and going to hell. How original.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Did I happen to mention that all Catholics are lost?

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Many are called few are chosen. Enter in at the strait gate and the narrow path which leads to eternal life. Yep, sounds exclusive to me. Oh, if you aren't following that exact doctrine I guess we should be attempting to do so. Instead of throwing our hands in the air saying oh well, and thinking we are going to get some cozy Bible study in the sky.

Good luck with that

Like standards? You don't believe standards must be kept in order to obtain salvation (and I agree with your position).....but a large percentage of oneness pentecostals do (probably still the majority, though losing ground). You know those who hold that if a man has a beard, if a woman trims her hair, if anyone wears a sleeveless shirt, or a woman wears pants or even capris, a man wears shorts, etc, they are sinning and going to hell. They are teaching that people can't be saved without obeying their standards. They are cutting people off from grace. Would not the entire book of Galatians and the full force of Paul's disdain apply directly to these, your "brethren"?

How much correct doctrine must one believe to be saved? Are futurists saved? Calvinists? Oneness Sabbatarians? Do you believe everything right?

You ask the question I'm curious to see your answer.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

So the flip side of this would be how much error can you be in and be saved?

Good grief

What I want to know is how you guys totally misappropriate the exclusivity of Christ (which is both Biblical and true) and equivocate that to oneness pentecostalism and all of its 103 year history to the exclusion of every other believer in history. Talk about taking a page out of the Jehovah's Witness' playbook.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

Yes, he asked the question. Usually when a person does that they are looking for an answer. Why, because they were curious first. Therefore he needs you to answer to satisfy his curiosity. ;)

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

You don't want to know anything. You already have created a paradigm which has made a system inclusive. So, how much error can one be in and have eternal life?

Fair question.

I'd say the book of 1 John is a good starting place.

One cannot deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, came in the flesh, died for our sins and rose again. Let's start there. This disqualifies heathens, Muslims, religious Jews, and all unbelievers. I'd say thats pretty narrow. Pretty exclusive.

But you guys go ahead and eliminate 99.9% of anyone who has borne the name of Christian throughout the church afe, when yall cant even decide amongst yourselves, who in your little sect are saved. The conservatives? The liberals? The moderates? The snake handlers? The sacred name people?

The conservatives think everyone else is lost, and then cut off other conservatives who don't meet their standards. The liberals are considered lost by everyone. And the moderates take it from both sides. The pentecostal specialty is condemning people. Let someone know enough about your beliefs and they'll eventually find a reason you're not really saved, so they think.

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

I take it Jason B isn't an Apostolic Friend? :lol

Re: Are all Catholics lost?
 

What about those who believed that Jesus wasn't God?
Does one have to believe that Jesus is God?
Jay Hoves weren't the first to come up with that.