Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I am wondering about a specific point of Pentecostal history, and I thought either of you might be able to give some insight.

I am wondering about "casting a vision" for a church. You know, how the pastor of a church, usually at the annual business meeting, will tell the church his vision for the coming year.

My question is: has this always been a part of the modern Pentecostal church, was it a carry-over from another source, or did it begin sometime later, after the early Pentecostal outpourings?

A side question:

Is it a widespread practice in/among Pentecostal circles?

Others of course can chime in if they have some info.

Much appreciated! Thanks. :)

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

It's a charismatic thing, from Word of Faith/New Apostolic Reformation/Kansas City Prophets/Latter Rain movement, I do believe.

Possibly also connected to secular marketing/business concepts.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

This is not part of the church culture I am associated with? I have always been associated with the ultra conservative end of the Oneness movement. Wish I could help sorry.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I don't remember the term, casting a vision....in business meetings have heard my husband say, I have a vision for next year....let's pray about this....

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Not sure of the source by which most derive the terms cast a vision, but the scripture says that without a vision the people perish. I think by casting a vision it is not meant as visions of prophecy. Instead it is more about goal setting in local church venues. I don't think that it is a bad thing, but a church must make sure their goals align with God's for their local church. What are your feelings, Votive?

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

same thing

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

You don't make and/or discuss plans for the next year?

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

No. Just being honest. Never have.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2005/1...n-casting.html

"Rick Warren & Vision Casting
The use of the term "visioning" and all of its variants is part and parcel of the futurists' method of operating. They believe that "vision casting" is a way to transform Earth's future and man's destiny. Just before his death, Willis Harman (see previous posts) served as co-editor for The New Business of Business: Sharing Responsibility for a Positive Global Future, a publication of his World Business Academy (Berrett-Koehler Pub., 1997). Part Five of the book, entitled "Discovering the Spiritual Dimension of Business," details how to integrate spirituality (not Christian!) with the business domain. An example of this is given in a chapter by Taoist Diana Whitney,"Spirituality as an Organizing Principle," in which she explains "visioning."

"Shared vision and common values are said to create organization meaning and to provide the impetus for organizational change. Leaders at all levels of the organization are guided to inspire (to fill with spirit) rather than to motivate. Visionary leadership, . . . is said to make the difference between successful and unsuccessful organization change. 'Visioning,' or conversationally projecting the organization into the future, and creating alignment among organizational members about the desired future are essential organizing endeavors." (p. 193-194) [emphasis added]

This type of language has entered evangelicalism like a flood. It came into the church via the business gurus and consultants. Churches have been feeling pressure to define their "mission, vision, and values." Pastors have been told they should strive to become "visionary" leaders. Rick Warren holds himself up as an example. He wrote:

"I know my leadership style. I am a big-picture, vision-casting leader. . . . There is nothing inherently right or wrong about being a vision-casting leader. It is simply the way God wired me." [http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/2004...0_pastors.cfm]

"Creative Visualization" is said to be the "process of using mental images in order to acquire what one desires or produce changes in one's attitude, thus creating one's own reality. . . ." according to the Seeker's Handbook, an occult dictionary by John Lash (Harmony Books, 1990). Envisioning is being widely used by neoevangelical leaders, both individually and corporately, as a way to "name it and claim it," "declare" something into existence (United States Strategic Prayer Network), or bring about desired transformative results."

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

You "cast a line" with bait to hook a fish.

Witches "cast a spell".

The term "cast a vision" or "vision casting" doesn't even make grammatical sense.

It looks like it has occultic origins.

The latter.


But that doesn't make it a bad thing.

Que X-files music

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

The truth is out there.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I heard about a man who said... "I have a dream..."

They shot him.

For you its waaaaay out there.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Way way waaaaaaaaaaay out there....

Have you seen his real tin foil hat? No kidding!

He has taken a football helmet, lined it with foil and painted it silver....

Honest injun!

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

That was just my old prototype from '94.

I've upgraded and economized: got it down to a cheap gaming headset from Radio Shack with Bluetooth and a Raspberry PI driving an Arduino-copter mounted on top with 360 degree go-pro and a magnetic CB antenna plugged into an SDR dongle.

Still need to figure out how to route my cell service through the SDR so I can be SmartPhoned (tm) at all times down in the bunker.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

LOL

Post some pics so we can plagarize!!!

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Hey E, did you get the pics of my new son?

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Sorry, COMSEC in place. Can't let my defense systems get scooped by Google images. I might wind up in a Clinton crime family documentary.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I got a pic of what looks like Clint Eastwood's pastor????

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Did you add another one to the clan?

Congratulations!

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

LOL

You're momma!

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I was referring to the Henry ad.

:smack

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

:heeheehee

Bwahahahaahahahahahahaha

Oh. Forgot that I had sent that one!!!

That was a good one to! That special made Bible case was great!!!

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Another..? :thumbsup

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I am not familiar with that term.

Leaders certainly lead. This includes pastors and CEO's.

As a retired church board member, I can say that visionary leaders do not like having their feet nailed to the floor by a church budget.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

I must admit I'm a bit surprised more people aren't familiar with the idea/term.

I specifically remember when David Bernand became the General Sup. for the UPCI, an article in the Pentecostal Herald quoted him using the phrase "casting vision". Last year the Forward did a whole deal about leadership and "casting vision".

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Personally, I think casting vision is part of the problem that is endemic of the overall state of the Church in the USA, perhaps even the West, and maybe globally.

What I mean is this:

In Ephesians 4, Paul gives us a creed by which we all ought to live. In it, we see a seven-fold proclamation of oneness. Seven being a highly important, symbolic number in the Scriptures, indicating holy covenant and completion, we need to then realize the imposition placed upon us by the apostle so as to make certain we embrace and practice the very oneness detailed by him, as follows:

There is...

1.) ONE Body
2.) ONE Spirit
3.) ONE Hope
4.) ONE Lord
5.) ONE Faith
6.) ONE Baptism
7.) ONE God and Father

As a universal Christian creed, we need to see that, in this oneness, there cannot be multiple "visions" cast by multitudes of different men of God.

There really ought ever to only be one vision for the church, spearheaded by the Head of the Church. More than that is "di-vision", understanding that "di-" is a preposition meaning "two".

I don't think it's Biblical to say that in one local expression of the Body of Christ, the Head of the Church wants them to focus on X, Y, Z, while in another local expression of the Body, the Head of the Church wants them to focus on 1, 2, 3.

To have that means the ONE Body, at the local level, is moving in two directions.

One pastor or a group of elders, wants to buy land and build a bigger "church", as the saying goes. Another pastor, or group of elders, wants to sell their building and become a home "church", as the saying goes.

Another pastor or group of elders, believes they need to invest all they have into an evangelism programs. Another pastor or group of elders believes they need to close ranks and focus on inward discipleship.

And on the list goes.

Mind you, none of the above are necessarily wrong, but in their own way, they fracture the Body and create a territorial dominion whereby many small-minded men try to build their kingdom while calling it's God's Kingdom.

See, what happens is, when a pastor, or a group of elders try and get a "vision" of what to do next, they really aren't relying on the Holy Spirit of God as much as might be assumed. Instead of trusting and waiting to actually have a vision given to them by the Holy Spirit, a lot of well-intentioned saints already have an idea in their mind of what it is they want to do, and if they are in a position to assert their weight, they steer the church in that direction.

This is what I see:

I see the vision of the Church as already given to her by Christ the Lord. Swerving from that vision in any way is not the will of God. The Church really is supposed to be an unrelenting megalith that steam-rolls all opposition. The gates of hell will not prevail against a universal Body all moving in the same direction.

However, what we have is a bunch of independent, and independently driven local churches driving around in whatever direction suits their fancy. And all it's created is a traffic jam.

Even in the most robust and well-led organizations. In my state, the UPCI looms the largest of all the Apostolic, Oneness Pentecostal organizations. The district board, every year announces a theme for the state, as an effort to cast vision for all of the saints and congregations in the state.

And yet, after the hype dies down, each and every local church does their own thing, anyways. Sure, brethren work together on various teams and programs, especially those designed to raise money (hmmm, I wonder why that is???), but otherwise, it's every man to his tent, O Israel!

I don't pretend to have the solution in my back pocket, or anything. But Paul was worried that the Corinthians would be removed from a sincere devotion to Christ as the bridgegroom of the believers. As we know, the church in Corinth was a divided, political, carnal bunch with a seemingly unending supply of problems.

Almost all, if not all of what we see in 1 and 2 Corinthians, regarding the health and state of that church, is present here in the USA.

The Apostolic Church, overall, in the USA

- Doesn't all say the same thing
- Is therefore carnal, not even ready for milk, much less meat
- Is therefore divided over the big names in Pentecost
- Has therefore attempted to build a different foundation other than Christ
- Is therefore puffed up in speech, yet lacking in power
- In consequence, fornication is commonly reported
- And, Saints defraud one another
- Need I say more...???

As long as men keep "casting vision", the saints will continue saying "I am of Apollos, I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, I am of Christ" in an attempt to follow that man's "vision". The only difference is or will be is that names will be substituted. Instead of Apollos, we'll have Bernard. Instead of Paul, we'll have, I don't know, take your pick. Right on down the list.

I would rather see the Lord personally reveal Himself according to His own will and timetable, then to see a church chase after Him, trying to catch a glimpse of what He's up to.

And there's the rub:

Much vision casting is nothing more than divination. Divination is an attempt to peer into the divine realm in order to figure out what the deity in question desires.

Jesus clearly opposed this idea in John. He called the disciples His friends, thereby indicating that He would always be telling them what He was up to, and what it is that He wanted from them (John 15:15).

The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy.

Unless a man or group of men have actually had a vision while in the Spirit, and unless the Lord clearly dictates to that man or group of men His will, any and all "visions", such as they are called, in my view, are bogus. We ought to simply call them for what they are: agendas.

Re: Elder Epley, or Scott Pitta, A Question...
 

Here's my experience:

When a pastor is 'casting a vision' what he means is a new marketing and operations plan to get more people in the church putting more money in the offering bucket so he can get a bigger salary and maybe get on tv.

That's been my experience.