True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

My wife said something to me the other day, that I found very interesting, and am tending, at the moment, to believe is true.

She said "Grace is harder than Law".

What she meant is that, for all of the ordinances and commandments contained in the Law, Grace actually demands a whole lot more from us.

As an example:

We are programmed to work for merit; grace demands a reprogramming whereby we trust in the merit of the Messiah, and not our own.

The Law gives us an easily codified set of procedures. Complete them and all is good.

Grace requires a total submission of all that we are so that we can be led by the Spirit daily.

The Law was designed to lead us to Christ.

Grace is designed to show us how to live a redeemed life (something many of us have a truly hard time doing)

And etc.

So, what say you all?

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

the law was designed to lead us to Christ?

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Mixed on this.
In some ways it is harder and some ways it is easier.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

ya...i voted true though, because Grace requires us to change our minds, whereas law comes naturally to us.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

if it weren't for Mercy, I would agree...

In my humble opinion, mercy softens the blow so to speak.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

its interesting that I had a very similar conversation with a friend at church sunday.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

It only seems that way

Let's see: the only person who kept the Law was Jesus Christ; therefore,
the Law was not meant to be kept by us.
What??? That's right: It was not meant to be kept by us WITHOUT the
Holy Spirit!

Under the Law, the only recourse was through God's mercy; when men
would cry out to God, and ask for forgiveness.
Here is an interesting thought: the Law required a full 40 stripes for some
punishments. But if a man received more that 40 stripes, the executioners
were subject to 40 stripes themselves, if they meted out more than the
required stripes. So to avoid such a harsh retribution, those responsible
would "show mercy" and mete out only "39 stripes". The central theme in
the Old Testament is "mercy"; and there are 39 Books written there!

In the New Testament: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at;
but now commandeth all men every where to repent...". So it seems
that in order to REALLY repent, man needed a heart of flesh, as opposed
to a heart of stone. It is only with the Holy Spirit that we can repent and
"...worship God in Spirit and in Truth..." The problem, I believe, is that
man still wants to obey God as if under the Law, and not truly under the
Spirit of Grace.

"Because it is written, 'Be ye holy; for I am holy.' " If God had not
empowered us to be holy, then He could not expect us to be holy: that
would be unrighteous; and if unrighteous, then God could not be God!
In the Old Testament, the focus is on mercy, and "...mercy rejoices
against judgment." But in the New Testament, the focus is on grace:
and what is grace but receiving the [Holy] Spirit unto eternal life?

So . . . be HOLY!

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

The law isn't harder than grace. Christ's yoke is easy, His burden is light.

Unless one's heart is somewhere else, that is.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

If grace were harder the Gospel wouldn't be Good News. Grace runs counter to our carnal nature. We are naturally bent on the notion of getting what we deserve. If we are good we deserve goodness. If we aren't good we deserve punishment. That's the Law. It's how our world operates. But we don't get what we deserve from God because of Love. God is good. His Gospel is Good News. Therefore, as Esaias has already stated, the Lord's burden is light. Trying to obey the Law, motivated by self righteousness, is much much harder.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

I think this is a great discussion.

Under the law, a person's actions determined if they were following law or not.

Under the New Covenant, not just our actions are judged, but also our intent.

For that reason, one could say that the law was easier to keep, because one could keep the law, without the heart's intent and purpose being in submission to the Lord.

Now, in the New Covenant, not just our actions are judged, but even more so, our heart's intents and purposes. That is why when Ananias and Saphira were struck down by God, and it was such a shock to the people, because they realized then that just doing a good work wasn't enough, if the intent of the heart was to sin or deceive. Both had to be in alignment now, not just the action, but also the intent of the heart. And that was a scary realization and wakeup call to the church when they understood just how serious God was about our hearts now.

So my answer to your question would initially be yes... and no. Yes, grace is harder than law, because now our intents and heart are being judged, along with our actions. But then I would have to say no... because as Ferd already said... if not for grace and mercy! We have great grace and mercy available to us now, and so while we have more to answer for now... we have greater grace and mercy available to be overcomers.

And so then, my answer would be a final... no. Grace is not harder than the law, because we have been given the power to overcome through Jesus.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

I wouldn't say it's harder under grace, it's actually easier if you're walking in the Spirit. However, grace does require more of us, than the law ever did.

If you're trying to live for Christ without His Spirit, then it's an impossible task, even more so than living under the law.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Right!

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

ok somewhere in here we should talk about the role hypocrisy might play into "harder/easier." For example, what do you teach that "overcoming" looks like?
Would any of the martyrs, Joan of Arc, agree with you here? "Overcome" means something different to...i don't know, a prosperity preacher maybe, than it does to [you], perhaps.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

I see a greater demand under grace, as follows:

"Lord, how many times do I forgive my brother if he sins against me? Unto seven times?"

"No, but unto seventy times seven."

Under the dictates of the Old Covenant, it was eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life, if blood was shed by man, by man would blood be shed (i.e. capital punishment).

If someone killed a family member of yours, you could pursue him or her, and if you caught up to him or her before they made it to a "city of refuge", you, as the avenger of blood, could exact retribution by your own hand.

But today, if you are struck on the cheek, turn again the other. If you are insulted, reviled, or injured in some way, you are to forgive, and surrender all rights of retribution to God. Even if someone kills your family member, you are called to peace, to release the killer from your desire for vengeance.

If you ask me, all of that is way harder than what was prescribed under the Law!

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Divorce in the Old Covenant:

Hand her a "bill of divorcement" and send her back to her papa, if she displeases you in any way.

Divorce in the New Covenant:

Never, except there be fornication/adultery.

Making a marriage work no matter the cost, under grace, because it is commanded in the New Covenant, is way harder than ending a marriage at the drop of a hat, because Moses permitted it, due to the hardness of their hearts.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

the evidence might be that we still pursue law, even as Christians--we live under a (spurious) "rule of law," and even subject people who did the right thing to lawsuits on technicalities of the law, etc.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Who agrees with Jito463?

If you're trying to live for Christ without His Spirit, then it's an impossible task, even more so than living under the law.

This was far too quickly passed over.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

I agree! With the Spirit, I now have help.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

i fail to see what keeps one from claiming the Spirit as easily as claiming to be a Christian, wadr.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

He would need to clarify "impossible".

The Bible does not teach natural inability of mankind to obey God. That false doctrine is Calvinism (and Arminianism).

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

People claim whatever they want, quite easily.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

amen, and i think "trying to live for Christ without His Spirit" might be impossible in a different way than was meant as well.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

I disagree. Anything that amounts to anything to the Lord is only what He does through us.

John 15:4-5 KJV Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Calvinism and Arminianism contradict one another.

At any rate, the reference to walking after the flesh in Romans 8 is referring to keeping law without the power of the Spirit. Paul said it cannot be done.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

:thumbsup

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Paul also explained that sin will rule our mortal bodies unless the Spirit that resurrected Christ quickens our mortal bodies. We're not debtors to live after flesh due to the presence of the Spirit and His quickening or empowering activity in us as the result of our faith to believe God to do that in us.

When he wrote, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God," he followed up on the Spirit quickening our lives so we're not debtors to live after the flesh, and the warning that life after the flesh will bring death. So, we're led by the Spirit when we rely upon it to empower us. That's the reason we read we've not received the Spirit of bondage again to fear.

All this teaches that we cannot fulfill God's will naturally.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

There are two kinds of inability: natural, and moral.

Natural inability: "Flap your arms and fly!" Sorry, I cannot do that.

Moral inability: "Give me all the money in your bank account." Sorry, I cannot do that.

Natural inability means a constitutional inability to do something, even if you wanted to. Moral inability means an inability due to unwillingness.

Not one of God's commandments require anyone to perform a natural inability.

If they did, then God requires us, on pain of eternal death, to do that which we cannot possibly do. THINK ABOUT THAT. In this scheme of belief, sin is no longer a crime but an unfortunate condition. We are damned through no fault of our own. Indeed we are damned through nobody's fault at all - except God's. God demands we do that which we cannot possibly do, and casts us into hell for not doing it. It is EXACTLY as if God commands us to flap our arms and fly or go to hell. Is that how God is represented in scripture?

NO.

God is angry with the wicked. Why? Because they do not do that which they CANNOT do? Or because they do not do that which they OUGHT to do?

And how can one "ought" to do what cannot be done? Oughtness means obligation. Are you obligated to do what you cannot possibly do, at all? Of course not. If you were, then words have no meaning, oughtness is a nonsensical term with no meaning, and God is a tyrant more akin to the devil than to Christ!

Calvinism teaches this natural or inherent inability. Arminianism teaches THE EXACT SAME THING, but modifies it by saying "God has given a gracious ability to all to obey", aka "prevenient grace". There is no substantive difference between the two systems on the question of inability. In Arminianism, the obvious objection to natural inability is "removed" by God supernaturally granting, as an act of grace, an ability to obey. But this is just a cop out and only means God's grace is what damns sinners, because without that grace no one would have ability and therefore no one would have obligation.

The truth is, sin is CRIME ie transgression of the law. We COULD obey, but we choose not to. We are not willing, and thus fail to do what we are obligated to do, and therefore incur GUILT. This is why sin is odious to God.

The Spirit makes us voluntarily willing and obedient. Without the grace of God we WILL not submit to God's will. Not because we "cannot" by a physical or "natural" inability, but because we WILL not due to a MORAL inability. Thus, grace is, in part, God securing our voluntary surrender to his claims upon us as moral subjects.

If natural inability were true, salvation becomes a matter of DEBT and JUSTICE rather than GRACE and MERCY. God would OWE it to us to rescue us from hell if we were going there through no fault of our own - which is the necessary conclusion to the premise of natural inability.

And because people believe this nonsensical Augustinian-Calvinist-Arminian false doctrine of natural inability, they do not truly abhor sin for what is - CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR. Instead, sin is just some disease-like affliction that attacks poor otherwise innocent people. And following on that, such people have a hard time justifying God sending sinners to a lake of fire. They don't REALLY believe sinners DESERVE such a fate. And how could they? If hell is your destination for not doing what you could not do anyway, how COULD you believe you DESERVED it?

And preaching this nonsense gives sinners an unending excuse: I cannot HELP but sin. I can't stop it, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to obey God. And they get this excuse from... CHRISTIANS!!!!

Who ought to know better.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Esaias, do you believe it is possible for someone, without the Spirit of Christ, to live a holy and righteous life? Or do you believe that, only through the Holy Ghost, are we able to live in holiness?

It's one or the either. Either we can live a holy life without God's Spirit, or we cannot. I'm not talking about being saved, obviously that requires the infilling of the Holy Ghost, I'm talking just about living a holy life.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Holiness is consecration to God's service and being separated to God, and requires not only us setting ourselves apart to God, but Him setting us apart to Himself. A "holy life" is only holy if God sanctifies it, so holiness apart from God's action is an impossibility by the very nature of the term.

As for obeying the commandments of God, everyone COULD, but unfortunately WON'T, apart from the Spirit's work in giving us a new heart and writing His laws into our hearts and minds.

Name one commandment given by God that absolutely and completely CANNOT be obeyed.

The Bible teaches law came to prove man cannot make it without divine empowerment. No one can keep law with natural ability. And I means consistently. That's the key. That's why we read offending in one point ruins it all. When Paul wrote Galatians 3 her said those who keep law are under a curse because law said we live by doing all that the law said. That implies no one can faithfully keep it.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

There is no verse which says or even hints at such a thing. The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, and it was added o the Abrahamic Covenant 'because of transgressions'. Nothing in the Bible says 'the law was given to prove man cannot make it without divine empowerment'.

See my post above for the refutation of this claim.

Where does the Bible speak about 'keeping the law consistently' as being what cannot be done? These statements are made from a paradigm that is unrecognised by the Bible. It is common Protestant/Evangelical theology, it is very popular, but it is wholly unbiblical and should be re-examined in light of scripture.

No, that is not. The Bible does NOT teach 'if you offend in one point you ruin it all because nobody can keep the law consistently'. That statement doesn't even make any sense, actually.

The Bible DOES teach that if you offend against one commandment you are a law breaker, you have offended against the law, you are just as guilty as if you had broken some other or a multitude of other commandments. And this is common sense and plain to be seen. For some reason, people can see clearly many subjects. But when it comes to religion, all of a sudden they get into a fog and everything gets all twisted and confused.

If you do not rob banks, but you kidnap people, you are a criminal, a felon. One cannot pick and choose which laws they will obey and then say 'see, I am law abiding.' Either you obey the law, or you don't, regardless of which commandment (statute) you violate. If you don't kidnap people, but yet you rob banks, you are still guilty, in fact you are guilty of 'the whole law' meaning you are not excused, you are in rebellion against the entire system of law and the against the lawgiver. As applied to scripture, this should be plain to see: the same God who said 'do not steal' also said 'do not commit adultery'. So if you abstain from stealing, yet you commit adultery, you are not excused, you are a criminal, a transgressor of the law, a transgressor against the one and same Lawgiver. The law, as an entire system of legislation, stands against you and condemns you.

There is nothing in there about 'obeying consistently', whatever that means.

Again, I challenge anyone to point to any commandment of God that CANNOT BE OBEYED.

Further, think about this: if you can go one moment without violating ANY of God's commandments, you can go two moments. If you can go any one moment without violating God's commandments, you can go any other moment, or all of them altogether.

The question is not 'can you', the question is 'WILL you'...

Nonsense. First of all, Paul said no such thing. He did NOT say 'those who keep law are under a curse'. If that's true then Paul and Jesus were under a curse. Here is what he actually said:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(Galatians 3:10-12 KJV)

He is not talking about people who obey God, he is not talking people who 'keep the law of God'. He is talking about those who seek to BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW. Those who seek to be justified by the law are under a curse, because 'cursed is everyone who continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them'. And the fact is, NOBODY CAN SAY THEY HAVE KEPT THE LAW OF GOD IN ALL THINGS WITHOUT FAIL in such a way as to BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD. This is Christianity 101, this is so basic it is amazing people get confused about this. Paul's doctrine is clear, it's all through his writings - justification does not come via the law, but via faith.

The law's declarations say nothing to suggest 'no one can faithfully keep it'. Again, there is not one verse that says such a thing. Imagine, God says 'here is my law, you shall keep it on pain of death. Guess what, by the way, you cannot keep it. Prepare to die.' What is this?

Ridiculousness, is what it is.

The law itself declared 'the just shall live by faith', meaning that the RIGHTEOUS shall LIVE (have life, eternal life, covenanted life with God) BY FAITH. The law itself declared 'there is none righteous, no not one' and Paul reminds us that 'whatsoever the law says, it says to those who are under the law'. This means the law itself condemns everyone under the law. It has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's 'natural inability to obey the law of God'. It has everything to do with justification and being declared righteous.

Again, the fact is, everyone has sinned. Everyone has transgressed the law of God. Everyone OUGHT to not have sinned, but they did anyway. This requires the ability to obey, otherwise there is no 'ought' involved. And this is why sin is punished, this is why God hates sin, this is why sin and sinners are odious in God's sight - they CHOOSE TO DISOBEY GOD. And nobody can claim they have never chosen to disobey God. At least not honestly.

And that is why justification is not and CANNOT POSSIBLY be 'by the law'. The code of legislation you and I have broken cannot possibly be the basis upon which we are found 'not guilty' in court! Therefore, there can only be two ways to be justified - either the law is abrogated, and there is no such thing as sin anymore because the law has been repealed, and the government has been abdicated... OR the King issues a pardon.

The Bible teaches that God issues us a pardon, and this is how we are justified. It is by GRACE through FAITH. It is not by 'the deeds of the law'. If you are judged by your deeds, you will be found guilty. You have to be judged by whether or not you have been given a pardon.

Now, suppose you have been given a pardon. Who in their right mind would ever suppose a pardon is a license to break more laws, and continue a criminal lifestyle? Who in their right mind would ever suppose that the Governor's pardon is a declaration the individual is 'not subject to the laws and is not to be detained' for any of their actions?

Only in religion do people lose their right minds, it seems... Well, that and politics.

Well, I will show there are many. Give me time to put it all together in a detailed manner and deal with all your points here. Unfortunately your proposition is strongly tainted with legalism and I'll show how.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

:lol two sides of the same coin.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

Esaias,

Where does the unwillingness enter in?

Why have all humans apart from Christ Jesus been unwilling to consistently, over the course of an entire life, keep the laws of God?

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

"Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

"Thou knowest the commandments..."

"All these I have kept from my youth..."

Then Jesus beholding him was angry with him for lying, because NOBODY could POSSIBLY keep the commandments in any consistent manner, and this guy was try- OOPS! That's not quite how it reads, is it?

Perhaps we need to re evaluate some of our concepts?

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

:lol ty

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

of course then you have negated vast swaths of Scripture--at least imo;

21So if anyone purifies himself from anything dishonorable, he will be a special instrument, set apart, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

22Flee from youthful passions, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

And yet, the fact that he held his wealth in high priority than following Christ, indicates that he placed it in a position of authority in his life, above that of God. Ergo, by that one could say he broke the second commandment.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

ya, Christ even directly said as much, there is but one thing you lack... so then, he is not yet an ideal example, and he may never be, but the path for him is clear, and it is his choice. However, this can also be viewed as "here is someone who lacks only one thing, at the moment," implying others in the same boat, and further implications that one is left to draw for themselves--but i think it is going to be very hard to defend "therefore no one can do it" in light of other Scripture. Job passed that test imo.

Re: True or False: Grace is harder than Law
 

He rejected the warning of Moses about hearing the Prophet God would raise up, that's for sure.