Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Millions, probably BILLIONS, of people, have never even heard about the gospel, much less the details of it.

What happens to them on Judgment Day, and why?

I am interested in hearing what the AFF community believes about this. Please explain why you believe what you believe on this subject.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Luke 12:47 KJV And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 KJV But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Yeah, but... you NEED TO VOTE!

:)

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Never actually saw the poll till now. Looked to the post itself.

:lol

Tempted to think SOMEHOW there is a way for those who never heard. But the word gives no room,.,,,, except for...

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

I wonder if that may cover some...

But since I cannot say for sure, I could not vote that way. Subject to correction.

2 Corinthians 4:3 KJV But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

What about YOUR vote, Esaias?

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

lol I'm testing the winds to see which they blow, so I can tack right into them against the current. :heeheehee

Seriously, though, I am 99 percent certain they would be lost (salvation is not DESERVED by anyone, so then ALL are actually guilty ie lost to begin with...) although I would like to see a good case for 'righteous gentiles' if one can be made ie non-Covenanted people who fear God and practice righteousness having a place in the World to Come.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Since Jesus asked forgiveness of the Father on the cross, I've wondered if that may be how the cross is applied to such people. That would bring in the all-necessary cross of HIS death.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

they will be just as warm as you are, but somehow suffering from...something they didn't learn, they have been judged, and their thirst for knowledge can no longer be satisfied

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

If we truly believe that the Spirit of Christ will guide us into all truth, then I believe that someone who seeks truly after God - even if they don't understand who that God is - will be guided by His Spirit into truth, or God will send someone to them, who will guide them into the truth.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Amen. But the fact remains without the truth we're lost. Please vote! :)

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

if one has nvr heard the gospel (lost) they'll automatically bake in the lake?


Guess I'll have to go w 1Cor. 5:12-13

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Good verse.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

the Bible suggests that this is not even possible; the Gospel is preached to every creature under heaven. Thus there is no one who does not hear the Gospel. The rejected are described as wicked person there, also evil doers. They do evil. These are likely not descriptions of those with merely doctrinal differences from someone else.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Shazeep, Do u view "He will pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh (Acts 2:17) as everyone ever born would receive His Spirit?

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Well, I would put forth that He has done this, but not everyone has received it.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Well I personally leave what to do with those who never heard the gospel to the wisdom and judgement of God.

I do not feel it is my place or anyone place to judge others' eternal destiny.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

i would say no, because there are those who will not receive; but these do not necessarily = 'those who refused to engage in the rites of the religious establishment of which i am a part' imo. Someone consciously and conscientiously hating their life who displays a grasp of repentance and has embraced humility etc, iow demonstrates faith and is known for their fruit, who am i to say that God may not consider their heart pure, just because they never spoke in someone's idea of tongues?

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Who will be saved or lost is up to God...however we that know so much WILL be held accountable if we do not do our part to reach the lost.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

amen, and i have to believe that many who are receptive are deterred some kind of way, many different ways, whatever way might possibly work.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

i knew you weren't a bad guy :lol

i might suggest that one reflect upon where they got what they understand to be "Gospel," how was the concept introduced to them iow, and speaking generally i would say that one should be very skeptical of models they have been invited into by other people, as you are skeptical. Especially, and with all due respect, if quoting Jesus appears to conflict with that model.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

The issue is not one of bad people or good people. Whatever the answer is, it's not a bad or good answer. We should be contrasting correct from incorrect. That's all. This is where the principle of the world affects people so much. What people do not WANT to believe is what they consider bad. The world cannot conceive of a genuine love for sinners, so it says there is only hatred if one points at sin.

Stephen pointed at his own murderers, and called them wicked and sinful. Was he a bad guy? Keep reading Acts 7. He asked God to forgive his own murderers while they were murdering him!

On the flipside, Jesus told the adulterous woman who was thrown at his feet that he would not condemn her. But he told her to stop sinning. Did he hate her?

Here we have someone pointing his finger and telling people they're sinners, and he forgives them while he's dying at their hands. Then we have someone saying he does not condemn her, and then tells her to stop sinning.

The sin and the forgiveness might have been introduced in each case at opposite times compared to the point of sin, but in each case sin was stated in no uncertain terms, and forgiveness was there. This shows God really does LOVE PEOPLE WHILE HE POINTS AT THEM AND SAYS THEY'RE SINNERS.

Since the world, and those in the church with that same spirit of the world, cannot conceive of such a thing, they think a person is BAD if they point to sin. They think it is HATE if they point at sin. That is because they cannot love people while they are in sin, because their love is not that great.

So, I think we need to keep in mind that there is a love that extends to people while they're in sin, that does not require the sinner to be cleaned up first before it is real and genuine love.

Those who think hatred is all there is when sin is pointed out cannot love people while they're in sin. So, they imagine there is no sin, in some way and somehow. THEN they can love.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

my knee-jerk response is that those people were caught in an ACT, and were doing evil, which might be contrasted with the more repressive regime of seeking sin where there may be none, possibly. i'll be back tho :)

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

There is a genuine love for people in sin. Everyone is born a sinner. And Jesus associated forgiveness for those in sin by accusing them of it and then dying for them to show his love for them. This cannot be believed by the world.

In Adam all die. But In Christ shall all be made alive. How do we get into Christ? We have to leave Adam. And birth got us into Adam and death gets us out. We die with Christ and thereby leave Adam, and enter in to Christ. So, all not in Christ are in Adam and will die.

Overall, the issue is it is not hate to point at sin. Hate is pointing at it and not being willing to do good to the same person despite the sin. Pointing at the sin in itself is not hate. The world thinks it is, but that's because the world cannot conceive of LOVE FOR GENUINE SINNERS. That is why they call the crucifixion a myth. They cannot conceive of that kind of love.

So, when the world and those of its spirit see sin pointed out in it, they can only interpret it as hate.

So, if someone is not baptized into Christ's death, they are in sin. They may be good people and do good things. But salvation is not base don good works. It is based on inclusion into Christ in His death. For that reason, EVERYTHING else as a means to salvation is salvation by works. EVERYTHING else is based on what WE CAN DO to redeem ourselves-- salvation by works.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

And Jesus associated forgiveness for those in sin by accusing them of it

an examination of these specific accusations might illuminate a different theme, i suggest we explore that.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Paul laid out THE GOSPEL he preached:

1Co 15:1-4....Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; ..(2)....By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. ..(3)....For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..(4)....And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It's all he preached.

1Co 2:2....For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And knowing his gospel was the death, burial and resurrection, we then understand what he meant by GOSPEL in these passages:

Gal 1:7-9....Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. ..(8)....But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. ..(9)....As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

That is like saying...

Gal 1:7-9....Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert Christ's death for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures..(8)....But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach anything other than Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. ..(9)....As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach anything other than that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Peter referred to the same gospel.

The question posed in the forum asks what Peter asked:

1Pe 4:17....For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Paul gave the answer:

2Th 1:7-10....And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, ..(8)....In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ..(9)....Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ..(10)....When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Insert these words where you read GOSPEL:

...I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

For that is what Paul said the gospel was.

That is not hatred. It's love. Love of the cross. Dying for people WHILE THEY ARE SINNERS. That's not satan. That's God. Loving them WHILE THEY ARE SINNERS. It's not love to have to remove the concept of sinners from the equation. That's PHILEO, not AGAPE.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

That is why they call the crucifixion a myth

i believe you leap to a conclusion here possibly, and suggest that i have never encountered someone in the US who denies the crucifixion, unless they are Jewish, and they get a pass on that, huh? Of course these people do exist, and you seek to tie this phrase to Muslims, who are told by their Book to follow Christ or be doomed, yet stand condemned by you, when Jews have no desire for Christ, but get a pass.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Hyper dispensationalism teaches that Israel need not accept Jesus because they have law. Hagee said there has never been more of a waste of time than evangelizing Jews for Jesus. That's a severe falsity. He said Jesus never came to be Messiah for the Jews. He said Jesus was not crucified for claiming to be Messiah, for, he reasoned, how can you be crucified for something you never came to be? He said Jesus was crucified by Rome as a political insurrectionist.

He retracted that statement quickly after uproar took place throughout christendom. So he changed his book that stated this to instead say Jesus came as a SUFFERING MESSIAH, not RULING MESSIAH.

Here is the original version of his presentation:

https://vimeo.com/33784563

NOBODY gets a pass for rejecting the cross. NOBODY.

--

Act 8:35....Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36....And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37....And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38....And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 2:41....Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


As soon as they heard the word.... BAPTISM! No time for fruit except repentance. And baptism is the work that substantiates faith.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

So, when the world and those of its spirit see sin pointed out in it, they can only interpret it as hate.

yes, and when i point out some sin here, everyone just feels the love flowing, huh. That's why it took 3 months to get an answer to 'how does that make you feel?' @ 'you are lost,' and the closest we could get was 'curious,' iow still refusing to deal with the actual question, way past even the place where the point has become obvious, and instead inferring or demanding that some proof needs to be presented first.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

So, if someone is not baptized into Christ's death, they are in sin. It is based on inclusion into Christ in His death.

which many are convinced is accomplished with their mouths, and i am convinced is not.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

ah, i'm sorry, let me be more clear, as you say "unread and ignored." I mean A POX ON THAT as a belief system, and it is not associated with the heart, but the head, wadr, as can be demonstrated in Scripture. i would even go so far as to frame this belief system as the serpent devouring the (body of, hello) the child delivered in Rev.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

Based on confession with their mouths???


unless churches have started requiring some evidence of fruit that i am unaware of, yup.
seems to be enough to also condemn Muslims, i notice.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

the baptisms that arise from hearing Jesus preached, i am all for those. But let me quote Christ one time here...lol. I am not impressed with those who come and get the t shirt with "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified" on it

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

you could maybe put it on a t shirt? :lol

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

because some 'obvious givens' seem to be getting a lot of resistance, wadr. It is an obvious given that no one wants to reply with their obvious reaction to someone telling them they are lost. for instance

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

bump
This is the core question here:

The question posed in the forum asks what Peter asked:

1Pe 4:17....For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


Paul gave the answer:

2Th 1:7-10....And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, ..(8)....In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ..(9)....Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ..(10)....When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Does that answer the question of the poll? If not, why not? Thanks, all

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

I have two guide posts that drive my answer to this question...
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

This drives me to share the gospel. I don't want the lost to be lost

Then John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

This gives me the comfort that no matter my efforts, God has his own plan in his own way.

I am required to take the gospel he has given me to every place I can. To share his word as best I can in all the ways I can.

But it is God that saves. not me.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

This drives me to share the gospel. I don't want the lost to be lost.
then you are compelled to consider the extent to which you are calling others into a system of mutual agreement, verbally binding, and inviting them into making a promise that they do not understand based upon fear, possibly, largely depending upon how the hearer takes you, no matter how sincere you might be.

it does not matter how much you disavow that all i have to do to be considered accepted is agree with you verbally, if that is in fact the truth. And if it is a lie, then tell me at what stage blood is required, skin, to make the contract any different. Is it possible you have been invited into a system of killing people, trampling Christ, putting Him on a t shirt, depending upon how literally they take you at your word that agreeing with you will bring them salvation, if even some few make it out? Is it at all possible that some more generous understanding of this fulfills the law and prophets might envision a better system where no words need be spoken, or some other interpretation of that--because that seems like a lot to rationalize away with all due respect. Hmm? Is it even possible, is all i'm asking.

Re: Those who never heard about Jesus?
 

“Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn’t have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents. Without a prison, there can be no delinquents. We had no locks nor keys and therefore, among us there were no thieves. When someone was so poor that he couldn’t afford a horse, a tent, or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift. We were too uncivilized to give great importance to civilized property. We didn’t know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth. We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another. We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don’t know how to explain how we were able to manage these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.”